Highly Gifted and ADHD???
susanmarcil wrote:
The Neuropsych who did the testing says he is certain that dd does not have ADHD and that the ADHD like behaviors are the result of overexcitablities that highly gifted kids commonly have
There are many people that are both ADHD and highly gifted and then there are people that are just highly gifted that do mimic some of the symptoms of ADHD. One of the criterias for diagnosing ADHD is that the problems in terms of behavior have to be present in two setting.....ie...at home and in school as ADHD is not just a school problem. It is very hard to identify a kid that has both but an astute clinician can dinstinguish between the two. If your still unsure, getting a second opinion wont hurt.
[QUOTE=Luvmykids02] It is very hard to identify a kid that has both but an astute clinician can dinstinguish between the two. If your still unsure, getting a second opinion wont hurt.[/QUOTE]
*emphasis mine
I agree. These kind of distinctions are exactly why a good doctor is so important.
My niece is highly gifted, a straight A student and was diagnosed with ADHD. She is a nonstop talker, gets irrate a lot, but other than that is pretty much a typical teen. My sister isn't sure the dx. is right and her daughter doesn't like taking meds, so she's off of them and still getting straight A's and testing (on the school yearly tests they have to take) in the 99th percentile. A very high IQ and an ADHD diagnosis can also be Aspergers. Not saying it is, but that's a common missed diagnosis, however my niece is very social and clearly doesn't have Aspergers. Although she is social, she is known to speak her mind and doesn't have a lot of friends, but she doesn't seem to care either...lol. My brother has an IQ of 160, was always a math genuis, and always had few to no friends (which bothered him a lot). He has Aspergers and is obviously quite gifted. When the kids are young, it's hard to see if it's Aspergers, but as they get older the glaring social deficits, obsessions with a few topics (like my brohter and his math and then baseball---memorizing every single stat) become much more glaring and make it easier to see the differences in the two disorders. Stims don't help Aspergers kids that much and if a kid is doing ok in school, why even bother?One of my dd's has been identified as highly gifted, ADHD, and AS.
There is so much overlap, it is hard to say for sure. Not to mention there is a certain amount of fluidity within some of these dx's, especially in the very young.
How old is your dd?
Are ya'll using pharmacology?
Smallmom has a son, who is ADHD and highly gifted, too. My daughter is gifted but she's not ADD, although she has some traits of it just not enough to be on meds....My son's Neuro psych evaluated her and said she's nothing like my son who's ADD and needs meds. In school we have issues with her paying attention to the teacher when she's talking, my daughter does other stuff and tunes out the teacher---Dr. said she's bored. Other than she's got (we think) some sensory issues with clothes, and her skin is always dry. Good LUck..Hi Suzi,
Lillian is right -- my 12-year-old son is highly gifted, has ADHD, anxiety, tic disorder and migraines (how's that for a combo?). His ADHD is largely inattentive, although we do see impulsive behavior at times. He has never had behavioral issues at school; boredom and not being able to pay attention are another story. You might say the boredom comes from not being exposed to challenging material -- not always true. Even when the material is challenging, but it is not presented in a way that engages him, he totally tunes out. What we have struggled with since kindergarten (my son is now in 7th grade) is that in spite of his cognitive gifts, he has always hated school (and believe me, we have tried a variety of settings). He is now in a small private school that prides itself on individual attention and experiential learning. It's only been a week, but we are having more success in this school than in any before (although we had major meltdowns about homework this weekend -- some things never change!).
My son has taken stimulants on and off since April 2003 with good success. He is on 10 mg Focalin XR now, which not only helps him focus at school but also helps him feel less anxious about school. I would have to say that anxiety has always been the biggest problem in our case. Did the neuropsych find any anxiety in your daughter? Anxiety can also contribute to excitable behaviors. I once heard a psychologist who counsels gifted kids speak, and he said the more gifted the child, the more out-of-sync he/she is with his/her peers. I think there's a lot of truth to that statement.
Sorry I've gone on for so long. I find this topic fascinating. In any event, I'm always available to chat.
Hi, Suzi. My son is 12, he has tested gifted, and exhibits the symptoms of ADD - mostly with attention/focus issues, not so much the hyperactivity - although he did have that when he was younger. Our doc has also told me that he is probably not ADD, doesn't need meds, just that being intelligent, they get easily bored with doing one thing (i.e. listening) and need more stimulation. I have not medicated my son - but do use some of the herbal focus (he's on Focus ADDult right now). So, although he's not diagnosed - I still find this board and the suggestions on here very helpful in controlling his focus issues.
My daughter is academically gifted and has ADHD. Even though she is gifted, her schoolwork/grades do not always reflect her IQ or ability. She does sloppy work at times and rushes to get through subjects she doesn't care for - or fails to notice she didn't complete all her work. Right now she has her nose in a book constantly - this weeks topic of choice is ancient Egypt. She is 8.
She is highly strung, talks A LOT, has self-control issues, etc. which are difficult to control at school (even on meds). She does better in her classroom because of the structure, but because most of the enrichment classes aren't as structures, she tends to get in trouble. She made a little boy cry in the cafeteria the other day......he "likes" her and she blew him off. 
She's only 8 - I can't imagine what is to come!!!!
It's a tricky combination because she can negotiate with the best of them and always has some creative excuse for everything she gets in trouble for.
I'm so glad someone (SusanMarcil
) brought this subject up. I've been curious about this myself. As we are still in the pre-dx stage, I still don't know what the root of DD's issues are. 2 wks into school here and the teacher presents me with "Well Mom," (I cringed, thinking dd had finally gotten comfortable=naughty) "She passed the 1st grade reading (Ithought good, she is in 2nd), passed 2nd, (okay, I know she likes to read-was doing real well the end of last year) and so she's reading with the 3rd graders." She also said that when dd is done with her papers(and looking for something to do), she tends to "get a little naughty around the edges"
This might not bring to mind gifted, except that she entered K a year early.( She missed the birthday cut-off date.) I'm not convinced she's gifted, and I don't know if we'll find out at our eval. Do they test that sort of thing? Is an IQ usually one of the tests? Thats how they distinguish AS from GT, right? The difference between something of 2 scores? GT doesn't necesarily mean social or behavioural issues either, but we do have those!
Thanks for the links, sengifted is something I've looked at before, not much happening in the way of traffic tho. The other took me somewhere weird, maybe I need to type instead of click.
I'm rather computer illiterate and often find myself in strange places on the internet. I guess I'll just wait 'til my dds get older, they'll teach me.
We will be seeing a behaviour developmental something (neurologist, I believe) Not quite the neuropsych so recommended here, but it's a start,eh? BTW the school pretty much refuses to do any more testing beyond her initial pre-K/early entrance. The other testing is beginning of school year/ what did we forget over vacation type testing. I really don't think they feel it would be to their benefit to find out anything, they don't really have programs so it would be a dead end venture. Very small school district, graduating classes average 60 or so.
Inmypjs,
Yes, an IQ test is generally part of the testing a neuropsych does. It sounds like you are seeing a developmental and behavioral pediatrician. That's the kind of doctor we see to coordinate my ADHD son's care (but did not do the initial diagnosing).
SmallMom- Dev. and Beh. Ped.! Thank you. That makes sense, as when I was put in contact with the nurse she asked my dd's dx. I told her she has none, she said they don't really make dxs. I think I must have begged or said some magic words, they'll eval dd. She asked some ?s about dd then asked if I had heard of Aspergers. But dd isn't bothered as much with noises anymore, and hasn't got any repetetive motions or obsessions. Do you think a dev.&beh. ped. will be able to/ is trained to detect GT?
On the IQ test difference thing.... Is it 15 points difference between verbal and general performance to differentiate Aspergers from gifted? Am I close? Am I making any sense?
Thank you all so much for the responses. The possibility of being gifted and having ADHD is so complicated, and I was stressed out enough with the ADHD dx...LOL!
I think with regards to Charlotte, the liklihood of Aspbergers is zilch. She is incredibly social and has quite a few friends.
I do currently have her on Strattera (she started back in April). It seems to help her with the impulsivity, but that may have been helped by her maturing a bit (she is almost 6). I never felt that it helped much with her "hyperactivity". In fact, we had tried to add a small dose of Tenex to the mix, but all it did was make her tired.
It is just so hard to tell if she is just highly gifted or is 2E. A pp asked whether or not the behaviorial problems were seen in more that one environment, the answer to that was that her issues were primarily in school. They may have been situational, however, because she started in a new school last year for pre-K and I felt that they did NOTHING academically the entire year. We didn't have any problems in her previous preschool which was a Montessori. Maybe there, she was allowed to work at her own pace, and this was able to satisfy her intellectually which in turn helped her behaviorally. Who knows? She also does seem to get very revved up in social situations (i.e birthday parties, play dates). I'm not sure if this is because they are unstructured or it is because she is excitable.
So far this year (2 weeks into school), we have not had any complaints with regards to her behavior. Her teacher is very experienced (23 years teaching K) and seems to have great classroom control. We have an appointment scheduled with the principal to discuss how to tailor a program to meet Charlotte's needs. The Neuropsych is joining us to review his findings.
I am going to speak with her pscychiatrist today and discuss the possiblility taking her off the Strattera. I think it is worth a try to see how she does without the meds.
Sorry so long...thanks again for the input.
Suzi
Textbooks always bored me in school.Hi-
I was wondering if anyone out there has a child who has been identified as highly gifted and as having ADHD.
We recently had DD evaluated/tested and she is exceptionally gifted. The Neuropsych who did the testing says he is certain that dd does not have ADHD and that the ADHD like behaviors are the result of overexcitablities that highly gifted kids commonly have. He specializes in kids who are gifted/ADHD, so I am guessing his opinion is correct.
I have read MANY articles and books on this subject. It is just really hard to identify a kid who is both.
Thanks for the input.
Suzi
Inmypjs,
I can't tell you what the developmental and behavioral ped you're seeing can and can't do, but I can tell you what ours can and can't do. I do not think ours does evaluations or testing (IQ, academic achievement, motor, neurological, etc.) I think he leaves that to neuropsychologists and other professionals. Ours did read all our son's previous evaluations, meet with us for an hour, observe our son in a social setting for an hour, meet our son for an hour, and then meet with us for another hour to go over his recommendations. He also drafted a 6-page report detailing our son's history, his observations and his recommendations for interventions. He also prescribes meds for our son's ADHD and anxiety. He also does problem-solving with parents. For example, he is meeting with us tomorrow morning to come up with a plan for homework since our son had major meltdowns about doing his homework this weekend.
In terms of IQ, my son has a 13-point spread between his verbal IQ and his performance IQ (on the WISC-III, which he took 2.5 years ago and is no longer used. The WISC-IV has 4 subtests -- verbal, perceptual reasoning, working memory and processing). We were told the 13-point spread in my son's subtest IQ scores is significant, but not in and of itself used to diagnose a specific disorder. More testing needed to be done to figure out which disorder. BTW, regardless of whether a child has a disorder or not, one measure of giftedness is a pure IQ number. A general rule of thumb is that an IQ over 130 is gifted and an IQ over 140 is highly gifted. So a child can be gifted AND have a disorder.
Hope that helps.
susan - can i ask why you did not continue with montessori? my adhd'er has been in montessori since he was 2 and I love it, he gets to work at his pace (tho today it backfired - he did not accomplish one thing) and although I dont think he is gifted he is bright and the environment keeps him stimulated so he doesn't get too bored. Just curious - I am very curious as to why others choose this education, or stop it or.....
thanks.
InMyPJs-
Here are a few websites that you might want to check out. They have a ton of info re: giftedness. If you choose to evaluate privately (i.e not through the schools) just make sure that you have someone who is experienced in dealing with gifted kids. Oh, the test was an IQ test.
www.sengifted.org and www.hoagies.com
Suzi
Let me join the chorus. Our 12YO son is gifted and ADHD...and exhaustingto raise! After several years in a private school, we moved him to public
school We found that he received better services from a public school. He
is in honors classes and he will be getting an IEP in a few weeks. The private
school could not meet his needs.
Yes, my granddaugter is extremely intelligent and is ADHD. The psychiatrists she has seen in the past as well as her current one said that it is not unusual for a very intelligent child to be ADHD - just even more frustrating for you and for them.
Here's a website devoted to this subject. She wrote an article, "Which is it? Asperger's syndrome or giftedness? Defining the difference," but the website link didn't work for me.
twice gifted website
cool thanks for responding - we are lucky we live in an area heavily populated w/montessori and ours will go to 6th by the time he is there with a middle montessori in the works now and hopefully open in 4 years - I may e a sucker to the private montesoori education gods but it seems to be working most of the time for us.
Good luck w your dd.
dareboys-
My dd's Montessori was great, but it only went up to a second grade level and I didn't want her to have to switch schools at that point in time. We put her in a private school that is supposed to be pretty challenging academically.
Suzi
Greetings,My name is Nicholas Schlagenhaft, I am a Junior at the University of
Minnesota. I happen to be highly gifted, and posess a very strong case of
ADHD. Having experienced a combination of both states every minute of
every day for almost 21 years, I have good understanding of the
differences between the two. First off, I would just like to say, I am very
glad that I posess both traits, and not one or the other. The way I see it,
the two traits tend the balance each other out. ADHD is a very funny
thing. It is simultaneously the best and worst thing about me. I would
never wish it upon anybody, but at the same time I would not trade it for
the world. The way I see it, ADHD and giftedness go hand in hand, which
is the reason for much of the uncertainty. I will briefly describe the
relationship, and how they compliment each other as I see it. On one side
of the system, ADHD makes learning more difficult. being gifted helps
offset the difficulty ADHD creates. On the other side, ADHD acts as a
catalyst for the development of one's gifted abilities. I know for a fact
that If I was gifted, but did not have ADHD, I would not be where I am
today. As with everything, there is also a bad side to the system. Many
gifted individuals are obsessive over perfectionism. Many ADHD
individuals suffer from innate procrastination. My biggest troubles with
school come from the fact that I am both a perfectionist and a
procrastinator, another difficulty I have is following through on projects
until completion. Being that I am a gifted individual, I find fascination
and interest in just about everything. This coupled with ADHD means I
get started on a project, get sidetracked, become fascinated by
something else, and the original project is never finished. This process
keeps on going and some of the trails I can create are quite amazing.
Luckily, in my opinion the positives outweigh the negatives. For me,
there are three tell tale signs of ADHD that are I do not think are a
product of being gifted. The first, is impulsivity. I am extremely
impulsive, I can't wait my turn, I speak without being spoken to, and I
interrupt. The second ADHD trait is hyperactivity. Some would argue it
could be considered overexcitability, but the level of my hyperactivity
transcends beyond overexcitability. There is not a moment of day where I
sit still. The third area where my ADHD shines through is my sleeping
patterns. To my recollection, I have never slept through the night without
waking up once. On average I probably wake up 6 times a night. It is
only for a couple second each time, but it happens every night, inevitably.
I hope this helps answer any questions you may have. If you have any
more questions, I love to talk about the subject, so please inquire. All in
all, if you child is gifted, and has ADHD, do not view it as a disability,
because when correctly put to use, giftedness and ADHD can be an
amazing combination.
Nicholas
That sounds just like my daughter...only 6. Today she was whipping a child with her hair...All she does is read and talk. She is extremely gifted with a very high I.Q. She does not pay attention in school. She goes into her own little world and sucks her thumb. My husband and I do not know what to do with her. She has been in public school and did not help her...she was lost in the system. Catholic school is on the verge of kicking her out...to challenging for the teacher.
HELP!!!
Nicholas- as the mother of a 12 year old gifted child, who exhibits many of the add tendencies, I loved your post. My question to you is how did these traits impact your social skills during middle school and high school? My son, although a friendly kid, is often picked on because he is "different" than the other kids. More mature in many ways, but still very immature in others. (i.e. he is mature enough to know that swearing doesn't make you cool, and that you should always treat others with respect, and can carry on conversations with adults, yet, he isn't as into girls yet, and still plays with some action figures, toys, etc.) I just wanted to see if you had any of these same issues, and if they seem to be better as you get older and out into the "real world" where giftedness and ADD can be an asset instead of a liability. Thanks for your input. It's always nice to hear from someone who has been through it.Nicholas-
Thank you so much for your post. You offered so many insights. Your description of yourself is my little girl to a "T".
So now, some questions.
We're (or are) you on medication? Our daughter is currently on medication (Strattera) and we are debating whether or not to continue. I spoke with both the Psychiatrist (who thinks that she is gifted and ADHD) and the Neuropsychologist (who thinks that she is just gifted) about continuing. As you can guess, the Psychiatrist thinks that she needs it. I believe that it does help with her impulsivity and hyperactivity, but only to an extent. It does not seem to squelch her creativity or make her different than whio she really is, just a bit easier to handle than off the meds. Because Strattera is more like an anti-depressant, I think that it helps to level out her moods a bit, which is also a benefit. I have read that some people think that the meds help gifted kids with their "overexcitabilities".
As a child, did you have really intense feelings towards things? If so, any tricks how to manage these? For my daughter, their is no neutral. Everything causes an emotional reaction....some positive and some negative. This is probably the biggest obstacle that she faces right now...learning how to manage these intense feelings.
We're you in a gifted program in school? If so, what kind? Currently, our daughter is in a private school (Pre-K through 12, college prep, approaches to teaching are conceptual, not memorization). We have a meeting scheduled to make adaptations to the program to fit her needs and the school actually seems pretty receptive.
Sorry this is so long ... thanks again for your input, it really helps as there is very little info on this.
Suzi
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