Question about the 3 drugs my son is on!

Hi, I'm new here and my name is Susan. My 13 year old is on 3 drugs currently and has been taking all 3 for about 3 years now. My kids were with their father cause of me having medical problems and not being able to care for them. But now they are home and I have researched the drugs that my 13 year old is on and they scare me very much. David is said to have ADD along with seperation aniexty disorder. They are giving him Wellbutrin for the ADD. I am very confused by this none the less cause it is for depression. My son has NEVER been classified with depression and I know that for a fact that he is NOT a depressed boy. The 2nd drug that he is on is Trazadone before bedtime to help him fall asleep (since the Wellbutrin makes him anxious and causes restlesness). But again Trazadone is an antidepressent not a drug for insomnia! And 3rd the one that scares me the most is ZYPREXA!!! They give him this as well before bed. WHY??? This is for manic depressants and psychotic disorders. I have also read that this was initially approved for the SHORT TERM treatment of acute manic episodes. Not to last but for NO more than 6 weeks. David has been on this for 3 years! I have been trying to contact his doctor to find out WHY he has my son on these dangerous drugs but he hasn't called me back at all.

Can someone please give me ANY insight to why a doctor would give these drugs to my son that has only been ruled with ADD? Any info would be helpful or any stories that you have heard I would love to hear!!!

It sounds like not only are the meds maybe not the best for his disorders, but that they are meds which would contradict each other. I would not waste my time with discussing anything with the dr who prescribed them. He may have valid reasons, but it would take another dr to understand and determine that.

Find another pediatrician and make an appointment with him or her. Tell them why you want one. You can go into his office a few days before your son's appointment to fill out the forms necessary to get his medical records from the original dr. They will send them in and he has to pass them on to the new dr.

The new dr will then be able to not only talk to you about your concerns, but he will have access to whatever records the other one used to decide what to prescribe.

Keep us posted.

Welcome!

i totally agree with barb, getting into a ped is faster than a psych dr, but i would make an appt with one as well...keep us posted...hope all goes well.  you are a great mother for noticing these things...

kudos to you and a

In my opinion, being aware of the evidence of risks is far less likely to scare or hurt someone than it is to discover far too late that their child's health, future - and sometimes LIFE - has been destroyed by drugs because of the agenda set both by the industry who produce the drugs and by the psychiatrists with pharmaceutical interests who vote in (literally) new 'disorders' on a regular basis in order to promote those drugs.   I would rather be informed of the risks involved to children if they play on a busy highway and put up with  the worry of ensuring that they don't,  than to have been unaware and have to try to come to terms with the consequences.

Somsso2,

I hope your doctor has researched for himself and will advise you well in the best interests of your son.  In the event that he/she is not aware, being prepared with relevant questions and access to articles may improved  the situation.  

Wishing you and your boy the very best. :-)

You might find Able Child a good source of support if there is a problem Somsso02.  It has a lot of very useful links.

http://www.ablechild.org/links.htm

There's also this article which includes studies (double-blind and other) done on dietary and nutritional  changes and the effect on ADHD behaviour, food allergies and their effect, etc: 

http://cspinet.org/new/adhd_resch_bk02.pdf

and the Feingold Program - downloadable from the site (by chapters) with additional information included here:

http://www.feingold.org/blue-pg.html

It seems to me that curus has an agenda....

not a very good one at that.  First of all, my ADDness would not allow me to read such punishingly LOOOOOOOONNNNNNNGGGGGG posts. Which kinda clues me into the fact that this is most likely ( ok I said MOST LIKELY not definatley) a person who is not suffering from ADD.

But feels the need to scare and hurt those of us who do.

got news for you... not all docs Push the meds so easily... I have a Dr. who won't even allow my family to have Codiene for coughs... says Robetussen is just as good..

He is also conservative with my ADD.. Started on lowest dose.. very structured.. and would not treat until recieved a diagnosis from a mental health professional.

Checks my blood pressure... tells me to monitor on my own because sometimes it can get a little high. ( high as far as normal for me... my normal is 107/73 .. but here lately it has been 130/80 -- that was before meds.. I think its due to stress.. so we are watching it.) He is not treating the BP, he wants to see some long term measurments first... nOt a person that jumps the gun and dishes out meds.

I know there are quacks out there.. but its not every dr. .. from what I have seen,  most Dr.s genuenly care about the health of their patients...

my 2 cents

sherry

Tapering off ZYPREXA. 

How many mgs is he on? 

Tapering off should be taken as slowly as necessary.  Everyone's metabolism differs.  If a reduction in dose off brings on withdrawal symptoms then go back up to the previous dose, wait for a week or so to stabilize and then try reducing again by a little less of a drop.  Pill cutters, razor blades and metal nail file are all useful when tapering, the nail file particularly at the end where the transistion from small amounts to nil may need to go slowly.

Carefully consider whether you intend to taper your son off all three meds at once.  Perhaps ask your doctor if it would be wisest to taper off only one at a time and which one should be first - and also for him/her to consider which should be last.  The last should probably be the one with the most sedative qualities which might help counteract withdrawal akathisia.

Below is one site where an average tapering procedure is set out to give you some idea on the timeline you could be looking at.  It could be longer, particularly if any of those drops need recalculating.  The safest way to taper off medication is to take as long as needed.   The following is based on someone taking 5 mgs of zyprexa.

Check also with your doctor (and perhaps research people's experience of zyprexa withdrawal) on the 'every other day' line at the end.

It might be easier on your son if you can split or file off half of that last 2.5 mgs so that he gets 1.25 mgs EVERY bedtime for the last (approx) 30 days, rather than miss a dose every other night.   Good luck.

http://www.medicationxpert.com/sample+consult+no+3.aspx

Stop Zyprexa - taper 5mg at bedtime for 30 days, then 2.5mg at bedtime for 30 days, then 2.5mg every other bedtime for 30 days and discontinue.[/QUOTE]

Dear curus,

Just curious, where did you go to med school?

Where did you conclude your residency?

What State Board licensed you?

Who is your employer?

What is your agenda?

Thanks,

David

Just curious, where did you go to med school?

Where did you conclude your residency?

What State Board licensed you?

Who is your employer?

What is your agenda?

Thanks,

David

         --------------------------------------

David,

   Shouldn't you be asking the doctor that put a 13 yr old on those meds about his credentials ? He's the one that created the problem.

   Curus's solutions will work... a lot better than almost any American doctor's will.

David,

    I'll copy your post and show it to the people who told me that. It could be that they were just trying to explain to me how Cymbalta works on the brain. I'll have to get back to you on that.

   In the meantime, could you explain why the suicide rate among Entreve (Cymbalta as a "stress induced urinary incontinence" med) users was 14 times higher than the placebo group ? It seems kinda odd that a med to stop you from peeing your pants would make you kill yourself.

   Maybe Eli Lilly should have tried that trick they used in the Prozac trials in Germany back in 1986.  The German government was reluctant to approve Prozac because of all the suicides, so Lilly just "adjusted" the clinical trial reports to read "depression" instead of SUICIDE ATTEMPT.

   PLEASE CONTINUE TO TRY TO DISCREDIT MY STATEMENTS.  I DON'T WANT TO BE HANDING OUT FALSE INFO.

   THAT WAY, IF YOU CAN'T DISCREDIT IT, IT MUST BE TRUE....

   SO, HOW ABOUT THOSE CYMBALTA SUICIDE FIGURES ???

curus: My son is on  7.5 mg every night of Zyprexa. I plan on leaving his meds alone until we visit with the ND on the 18th and see what she says on how to do it. I am worried about weening him myself since he has been on these drugs for 3 years now!! I know that these drugs can do alot of harm to his body if I just start doing it without knowing what I'm doing. Hopefully soon he'll be off all of them and on the right path! I know that it will be hard for awhile (afraid of the withdraws) but we plan on making it work and doing whatever it takes to take care of theis and HIM!!

Bailey: It scares me as well that the doctors are SO willing  to medicate these YOUNG kids with such serious drugs without really doing any checks (blood, brain etc.). I would like to do something about it BUT I'm not sure where to start. The only place I know to start is with my son and go from there!!

[QUOTE=BALANCED]... and just a little side note for all of you....  Eli Lilly's latest "FDA approved" antidepressant is called Cymbalta. It is a mix of a generic form of Wyeth's EFFEXOR  and Lilly's ZYPREXA.  The suicide rate among the clinical trials was 1 per 600 users. [/QUOTE]

Dear Balanced,

It appears that your statement quoted here is incorrect. Do you have a valid explanation for its inconsistency?

This leads to a distrust of all of your statements, no matter how threatening they may be.

Sincerely yours,

David

Cymbalta / duloxetine

Effexor / venlafaxine

Zyprexa / olanzapine

Bailey and somsso2,

    For the "natural" route, check out www.truehope.com . They sell a product called EMPowerPlus that really works for depression.  Of course, it's expensive.

    But, they list the ingredients on the site and I suggest you copy that list and discuss it with any competent people in your local health food store. I'm about halfway through translating that list into foods that contain those ingredients.

    I believe that it would be worth adjusting your grocery shopping and meals to include those ingredients.

     Tim

P.S. Every 5 minutes an American dies from an adverse reaction to an "FDA approved" prescription drug.

On Wellbutrin / Buproprion  withdrawal

Withdrawal syndrome from Wellbutrin can occur as in SSRIs despite the fact that it does not work on the serotonergic system.  Its thought that the dopaminergic and noradregnergic systems may be the cause.  All should be tapered off gradually although its possible that it may be reduced more rapidly than is necessary with SSRIs.  As always, taper at a speed that your son can cope with and be aware of the possible emergence of akathisia.

Article on Wellbutrin withdrawal, pdf file (acrobat reader required):

http://www.psychiatrist.com/pcc/pccpdf/v01n02/v01n0205.pdf

An article on Akathisia (which is common on and in withdrawal from many psychotropic drugs) and the various treatments proposed. If he does show signs of akathisia then it is essential to address the problem.  If that situation arises it may be worth seeking your doctors advice as to which of the treatments outlined would be effective when only taken episodically (such as low doses of diazepam when necessary for instance) and asking if this 'episodical' option would be more advantageous in that it would avoid his taking an additional regular drug which may present withdrawal problems of its own:

http://www.smj.org.uk/1001/aka1001.htm

To SOMSS02

Tapering off ZYPREXA. 

How many mgs is he on? 

Tapering off should be taken as slowly as necessary.  Everyone's metabolism differs.  If a reduction in dose off brings on withdrawal symptoms then go back up to the previous dose, wait for a week or so to stabilize and then try reducing again by a little less of a drop.  Pill cutters, razor blades and metal nail file are all useful when tapering, the nail file particularly at the end where the transistion from small amounts to nil may need to go slowly.

Carefully consider whether you intend to taper your son off all three meds at once.  Perhaps ask your doctor if it would be wisest to taper off only one at a time and which one should be first - and also for him/her to consider which should be last.  The last should probably be the one with the most sedative qualities which might help counteract withdrawal akathisia.

Below is one site where an average tapering procedure is set out to give you some idea on the timeline you could be looking at.  It could be longer, particularly if any of those drops need recalculating.  The safest way to taper off medication is to take as long as needed.   The following is based on someone taking 5 mgs of zyprexa.

Check also with your doctor (and perhaps research people's experience of zyprexa withdrawal) on the 'every other day' line at the end.

It might be easier on your son if you can split or file off half of that last 2.5 mgs so that he gets 1.25 mgs EVERY bedtime for the last (approx) 30 days, rather than miss a dose every other night.   Good luck.

http://www.medicationxpert.com/sample+consult+no+3.aspx

Stop Zyprexa - taper 5mg at bedtime for 30 days, then 2.5mg at bedtime for 30 days, then 2.5mg every other bedtime for 30 days and discontinue.

Relative Risks (RR) on Suicide Rates

Article by an Australian Forensic Psychiatrist.  As a google html version its a little more difficult to read - if you have power point then it's better to use the first link.

http://www.lucire.com.au/documents/pps/Do-SSRIs-cause-Suicid e.pps

Google html version

"Antidepressants form two major groupings: New SSRIs and older TCAs, which I’ll call TricyclicsSSRIs act on Serotonin and have profound effects. They are capable of changing people profoundly and not always for the best. Contrary to popular opinion, there is no scientific evidence that serotonin is abnormal in depression.Having more of it floating around makes for a lot of change.

SSRIs (the Accused) TCAs (the Comparator) Prozac Tryptanol Zoloft Tofranil Aropax Prothiaden Efexor Sinequan Cipramil Lexapro Luvox


Caution:Do not stop taking an antidepressant without medical supervision.Complications occur on starting, stopping and with irregular dosing. Withdrawal can start up to four weeks after stopping the drug and can go on for three months Complications include agitation, mania, psychosis and self harm and suicide and violence and homicide.


The possibility that a drug was causing the effects it was supposed to cure was unthinkable, especially by clinicians.But it is accepted: SSRI-induced akathisia is in the latest Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, the ever expanding list of mental disorders. DSM

How common is it? A 2001: Yale: 8% of patients admitted ‘may suffer’ from SSRI-induced mania or psychosis. Higher levels of prescribing in OZ and including agitation, suicidal thoughts and attempts, its more like 20%.

I will give you Daubert competent science. Science that has passes 6 Daubert Hearings. Scientific (as opposed to opinion) evidence is the only kind of expert evidence admissible in American and Australian courts Scientific evidence that SSRIs cause: Suicidal thinking Suicidal acts Completed suicide.

The 1993 US Supreme Court Decision in Daubert v. Merrell Dow Pharmaceuticals altered the criteria by which scientific testimony is admitted as evidence in court. The unanimous ruling states that the criterion of the scientific status of a theory is that it can be tested, refuted and falsified.  Scientific method is based on generating a null hypothesis, a conjecture that something does not exist, and testing it to see if it you can prove the contrary.The unicorn does not exist. The prisoner is not guilty. These are respectively good science and good law Disproving the negative differentiates science from other forms of inquiry William Daubert, et ux., etc., et al., Petitioners v. Merrell Dow Pharmaceuticals, Inc.Supreme Court of the USA, June 28, 1993.

We need to watch two numbers RELATIVE RISK RR SUICIDE RATE /100,000

A Relative Risk, RR, is how many more times SUICIDE and its precursors THINKING OF SUICIDE AND SUICIDAL ATTEMPTS occur in SSRI-TREATED PATIENTS over and above those treated with a Tricyclicor not treated at all.

If a medicine saves some depressed patients from committing suicide, the RR between that medicine and no treatment should be less than 1.Tricyclics generally had an RR of 0.5 against no treatment, in "hospital" depressions, in which suicides were a known risk. Tricyclics halved the number of suicides in a seriously depressed population.

Tricyclics were known to cause suicide by energising the depressed, but RR was still favourable.If the relative risk equals 1.0, the risk in treated individuals is the same as the risk in untreated ones. If the relative risk is more than 1.0, the risk in treated is greater than in untreated. As we are trying to prevent suicide, an RR of 1 would be ominous.

Eli Lilly (Prozac) Pfizer (Zoloft) and GSK (Aropax) proposed in 1999, the cut off point of SIGNIFICANCE, Relative Risk, RR, be 2.0. Ridiculously HIGH by any standard. Corporate chutzpah.

Exposure to asbestos is deemed contributory to cancer if the RR is only 1.2 which is 20% higher. Asbestos was never expected to PREVENT cancer. AN RR OF 2 IS FIVE TIMES THAT.

The evidence for suicide induction can be found in many areas of research1. CLINICAL PSYCHIATRY Observations and mechanisms Challenge-Dechallenge-Rechallenge experiments Studies of NEW suicidal ideation, (Fava)2. SUICIDE EPIDEMIOLOGY SUICIDES BY PRESCRIBED DRUG JICK, UK DSRU DONOVAN POPULATION STUDIES , PRIMARY CARE HEALY AND BOARDMAN3. HEALTHY VOLUNTEER STUDIES 4. RANDOM CONTROL TRIALS (RCTs)

The evidence from all these sources is overwhelmingly supports a relative risk of suicide by SSRI users of greater than 2, and sometimes as high as 8 or 10.

CLINICAL PSYCHIATRY 1990 American Journal of Psychiatry. 147(2):207-10, 1990 Feb.Abstract Teicher Glod and Cole. Six developed intense, violent suicidal preoccupation after 2-7 weeks of Prozac which persisted 3 days to 3 months after Prozac was stopped. None had ever experienced a similar state .Drug companies called this ‘anecdotal’ and said "It’s the disease not the drug, doctor" Now scores of such reports, patients treated for anxiety, eating disorders,OCD and menstrual problems and children

CLINICAL PSYCHIATRYTeicher and Cole (1993) delineate 9 "clinical mechanisms" by which SSRIs can induce or exacerbate suicidal tendencies by: (1) energizing depressed patients, (2) paradoxically worsening their depression , (3) inducing akathisia, (4) inducing panic attacks, (5) switching patients to mania or hypomania, (6) causing insomnia or interfering with sleep architecture (esp. with REM sleep), (7) inducing an organic obsessional state, (8) promoting personality disorder with borderline traits, (9) producing EEG or other neurological disturbances.

Those at risk of suicide are agitated,in turmoil, nervous, sleepless, pacing, energized, almost manic, and they reject their obsessive suicidal thoughts as ‘strange’, ‘weird,’‘not me’.This can go on for weeks or can turn into suicide unpredictably in a matter of minutes.Teicher and Cole, 1993 Healy, Langmaak, and Savage, 1999;’

The traditional suicidogenic triumvirate of psychotropic drug reactions are 1) akathisia, (2) emotional blunting, also called psychic numbing "I cannot feel anything, do not care" and/or (3) psychotic decompensation Akathisia is turmoil, feeling numb as if nothing matters, and feeling one is going mad. It can happen over weeks or days, or very very quickly, in a matter of minutes. Teicher and Cole, 1993 Healy, Langmaak, and Savage, 1999;

CLINICAL PSYCHIATRY1991: Suicidal thinking (out of the blue)Fava and Rosenbaum found suicidal thinking developed in patients who had never been suicidal before, more on Prozac than on other drugs. Prozac v TCAs = RR = 2.7Scores of reportsFava, M. & Rosenbaum, J. 1991. Suicide and 3 fluoxetine. Journal of Clinical Psychiatry, 52-5.

CLINICAL PSYCHIATRYSUICIDAL ACTS 2 of 26 depressed patients overdosed in the first 2 weeks when Prozac was increased quickly. 7.6% is an extremely high rate. M. Muijen, et al., A Comparative Clinical Trial of Fluoxetine, Mianserin, and Placebo in Depressed Outpatients, Acta Psychiatrica Scandinavica, Vol. 78 (1988), pgs. 384-390).

CLINICAL PSYCHIATRYChallenge-Dechallenge-Rechallenge CDRThere are many Challenge-Dechallenge-Rechallenge studies. Suicidality starts on drug, clears up when it is stoppedand Reappears on re-exposure, even to another SSRI.

SUICIDE EPIDEMIOLOGY: JICK Against concerns that Britain’s most popular TCA antidepressant, Prothiaden, dangerously toxic in overdose and being labeled as a ‘dirty drug by SSRI mfrs.Jick examined 172,598 persons and 1.2 million scripts for 10 antidepressants, old and new, general practice patients 143 had committed suicide.Jick S, Dean AD, Jick H (1995). Antidepressants and suicide. British Medical Journal 310: 215-218

SUICIDE EPIDEMIOLOGY : JICK Prothiaden turned out to be the safest as only 14% of suicides involved antidepressant overdose.

RR of SUICIDE Prozac v all TCAs RR = 6.6

Prozac v Tofranil RR = 1.9

Prozac v Amitriptyline RR = 4.0

Prozac v Prothiaden RR = 2.1

Prozac v Lofepramine RR = 4.04

SSRI overdoses are not fatal. SSRI suicides tend to be violent: hanging, drowning, shooting, jumping, stabbing or cutting, dying on a railway, burning, electrocution, or deliberate road accidents.


SUICIDE EPIDEMIOLOGY: JICK Jick was embarrassed and suggested that ‘selected’ patients may have been given Prozac, which had a high suicide rate attached.

SUICIDE EPIDEMIOLOGY : DRUG SAFETY RESEARCH UNIT UK (50,000 pop.)The DSRU follows up drugs in the community it looked at completed suicides and what medicines they had been prescribed.Suicide rate on SSRIs = 219/100,000.Prozac 244/100,000 Aropax [PAXIL/SEROXAT] 269/100,000 Luvox [FAVERIN] 183/100,000


Boardman and Healy investigated 475,000 over 5 years counting all the mood disorders in all the private practices and suicide rates for these disorders


SUICIDE EPIDEMIOLOGY: Boardman & Healy PRIMARY CARE SUICIDE RATES All mental disorders < 27-67/100,000. Fits in with other primary care mood disorders suicide statistics Holland 30/100,000 Sweden 0/100,000Antedating SSRIs Simon, von Korff 30/100,000 Highest UK rate 68/100,000Boardman AP, Healy D. Madeley suicide risk in primary care primary affective disorders. European Psychiatry. 2001; 16: 400-405.

SUICIDE EPIDEMIOLOGY: DONOVAN again sought to establish the safety of SSRIs against TCAs which were toxic in overdose. Examined 222 COMPLETED SUICIDES, and the medicines they had been taking, and found   SSRIs v TCA RR= 2    Donovan S, Kelleher MJ, Lambourn J, Foster R.     The occurrence of suicide following the prescription of antidepressant drugs. Arch Suic Res. 1999; 5: 181-192.

SUICIDAL ACTS: DONOVAN At the same time, DONOVAN looked at 2776 acts of DELIBERATE SELF HARM in 1954 persons presenting to emergency and what they were taking Aropax [PAXIL] v Tryptanol (TCA) RR = 4.0     Prozac v Tryptanol (TCA) RR = 6.6     Zoloft v Tryptanol (TCA) RR = 4.9    Aropax v Tofranil (TCA) RR = 1.9    All SSRI v Tofranil (TCA) RR = 5.5

 Donovan S, Clayton A, Beeharry M, Jones S, Kirk C, Waters K, Gardner D, Faulding J, Madely R. Deliberate self-harm and antidepressant drugs. Investigation of a possible link. Brit J Psychiatry. 2000; 177: 551-556

HEALTHY VOLUNTEERS Healy: 2 of 20 healthy volunteers suicidal on Zoloft.

2 healthy volunteers have suicided: 19 year old Traci Johnston, a healthy volunteer, suicided February 7th 2004 in a trial of Eli Lilly's new Serotonin drug - duloxetine [CYMBALTA/YENTREVE], for incontinence aborting the trial Reported in Sydney Morning Herald Lilly had been doing clinical trials in Australia

Result:You cannot set up a trial to see how many people kill themselves as a consequence of the drug you are testing It would be impossible to get insuranceor ethics approval. Or informed consent? Have to make do with information we have.Emergence of antidepressant suicidality, published in 2000 in Primary Care Psychiatry (Vol. 6, No. 1).

RANDOM CONTROLLED TRIALS (RCTs)SUICIDES AND SUICIDAL ACTS2003, Khan et al. looked at BLIND CLINICAL TRIALS from 1986-90 Presented to the US Federal Drug Administration, to get SSRIs licensed. FOR9 Serotonin ANTIDEPRESSANTS against comparators and placebos.

Kahn found NO DIFFERENCE in suicides and suicidal acts between those on SSRIs or on COMPARATOR DRUGS or PLACEBOS48,277 depressed patients participated in the trials,and 77 committed suicide. That’s a lot. Am J Psychiatry. 2003 Apr;160(4):790-2.

RANDOM CONTROLLED TRIALS SSRIs had failed to demonstrate usefulness in hospital depressions. (We still give as much ECT as we ever did) so ‘hospital patients’ carrying suicide risk were not recruited into these trials. SSRIs were aimed at general practice. ‘Samples of convenience’ patients under stress, with minor disorders, The Valium using population of the 1970s With suicidal patients filtered out.

In September of 2003, Healy and Whittaker re-evaluated the same, original FDA studies. They published a watershed paper in September 2003. Antidepressants and suicide:risk–benefit conundrums David Healy, MD; Chris Whitaker, MScHealy — Department of Psychological Medicine, University of Wales College of Medicine, Hergest Unit; Whitaker — Department of Informatics, University of Wales Bangor, Bangor, United Kingdom. J Psychiatry Neurosci 2003;28(5):331-7

Whereas Kahn had coded as ‘placebo suicides’ those within 2 weeks of stopping an SSRI Healy and Whittaker recognised these 5 SUICIDES and MANY SUICIDAL ACTS AS ‘SSRI WITHDRAWAL SUICIDES’.

Khan had counted suicides per number of patient years exposed to the drug, PEYs .Healy counted suicides per number of patients treated

Healy argued that the risks of SSRIs resembled the risks of space travel which, mile for mile, was the safest form of transport available. But going up and coming down are the danger periods for both.


But landing and re-entry occurs each time a dose is forgotten, not absorbed, taken with alcohol or if a co-prescribed medicine is added or removed.




Summary: Incidence of Suicides and Suicide Attempts (combined) in Antidepressant Trials From FDA Medical Reviews

FDA TRIALS SUMMARY 26,000 subjects SUICIDE RATES ALL DRUGS SUICIDE = 232/100,000SSRI SUICIDE = 186/100,000 PLACEBO SUICIDE = 64/100,000RELATIVE RISK FDA TRIALSSUICIDE ON SSRI RR = 2.4 (CI 0.6-10.2)SUICIDAL ACT ON SSRIS RR = 2.2 (CI 1.4-3.5)S/ ACTS ON NEW ANTIDEPRESSANTS RR = 4.3 (CI 1.1-17.8)

SUICIDE RATESDRUG SAFETY RESEARCH UNIT SSRI SUICIDE = 212/100,000JICK PROZAC in first 30 days of treatment 274/100,000 PEYsPROZAC 93/100,000

SUICIDE EPIDEMIOLOGY: Boardman & Healy and many othersAntedating SSRIsPRIMARY CARE SUICIDE RATES < 27-68/100,000 MAXIMUM ANY POPULATION STUDY 68/100,000Boardman AP, Healy D. Madeley suicide risk in primary care primary affective disorders. European Psychiatry. 2001; 16: 400-405.

Healy and Whittaker’s conclusion was modest: It is no longer possible to support the null hypothesis that SSRIs do not cause suicide The null hypothesis has been falsified.

Any way you look at available information, clinical settings,emergency rooms, morgues, clinical trials,SSRIs as a general cause of suicide would pass the scientific standard of proof.The BMJ issued warnings on February 5 2004.FDA on March 23Most manufacturers put on Websites on May 3, 2004. Only in USA.


WARNING MAY 3 2004… patients being treated with antidepressants should be observed closely for clinical worsening and suicidality, especially at the beginning of a course of drug therapy, or at the time of dose changes, either increases or decreases.

WARNING MAY 3 2004 Families and caregivers of patients being treated with antidepressants for major depressive disorder or other indications, both psychiatric and non-psychiatric, should be alerted about the need to monitor patients for the emergence of agitation, irritability, as well as the emergence of suicidality, and to report such symptoms immediately to health care providers

Unlike smallpox, depression has not  disappeared since a cure became available  Potentially fatal complications of any treatment might be acceptable if the treated population were small, dangerously ill, at high risk the availability of a remedy has increased the diagnosis of depression a thousandfold.and lethal side effects have increased by the same multiplier.

The drug manufacturers promote the medicalization of stress, subsidize psychiatrists, journals, conferences. Encourage moral entrepreneurs of health who talk about cases undiagnosed, and so untreated John Merson calls this phenomenon ‘epistemic capture’: the control of knowledge by vested interests.

200/100,000 represents 1 death in 500 people treated with SSRIs in primary care.68/100,000 v 200/100,000A least 100 suicides per 100,000 over treatment with other drugs or non treatment.By 2003, over 28 million people had started Prozac since its launch in 1988.

6,664,960 prescriptions for SSRI written 2003 by Australian doctors.Twelve times the annual number studied by Donovan 40% of first prescriptions remain unfinished, because of side effects. PBS spends $160 million a year on SSRIs.Cui Bono?

I in 500 too rare for clinicians to see.They need advice from suicide epidemiologists and statisticians.Opinion evidence is not admissible. ‘We are not convinced’ and ad hominem arguments do not get admitted as evidence.

1 in 500 is well above Rogers and Whittaker’s 1 in 14,000 and demands a duty to warn of a catastrophic side effect.

Someone has that duty.Who will tell the prescribing doctor? The manufacturers have not done so in Austrlalia. The Therapeutic Goods Administration has not issued warnings. The Federal Drug Administration in USA argues that its role is licensing drugs, not protecting the public.  Psychiatrists, all clinicians, are ‘not convinced’.

Some more alarming informataion has emerged from David Healy's re evaluation of the clinical trials of antipsychotic drugs presented to the FDA.It concerns commonly prescribed antipsychotic drugs The regulator, the FDA, just did not notice in the late 1980s that one in 208 or 12 in 2,500 clinical trial subjects committed suicide while Zyprexa was being trialled and only one on placebo and one on a comparator, most likely haloperidol did that.


The subject numbers are so small that relative risk cannot be calculated, but Zyprexa (Olanzepine) trials had the highest rate of suicide in clinical trial history. Suicidal Acts have not been reported Risperdal was not far behind Zyprexa. The mechanism is thought to be similar,through causing akathisia and doing these drugs synergistically with SSRIs. Doctors have not been warned.

All Truth passes through Three Stages: First, it is Ridiculed... Second, it is Violently Opposed... Third, it is Accepted as being Self-Evident.Arthur Schopenhauer (1778-1860 )

In Friedson’s account, moral entrepreneurs in medicine are commonly part-time practitioners who crusade in health matters. The thrust of their activity is towards political power as they seek to implement measures designed to improve what they see as public health. They give press interviews and try to give testimony in court.

They are often responsible for legislation. They want to place jurisdiction for their concerns in the hands of health professionals rather than leave them with society. Freidson identified lay interest groups, sometimes led by, and always including, prominent physicians, whom he described as ‘the most flamboyant moral entrepreneurs of health, untrammelled by professional dignity, crusading against the menace of a specially chosen disease, impairment or disease-producing agent’

Such moral entrepreneurs, essential players in any moral panic, are ubiquitous. Professional entrepreneurs are creating panics about the consequences of child sexual abuse, others about failing to have professionals attend immediately on persons involved in traumatic events and about depression which had become the greatest scourge of modern society.

They advert to cases of undiagnosed and untreated post-traumatic stress disorder and depression, which medication would surely cure. They attribute to these evils a status of being important causes of personal failure and society’s epidemic ills.

Physician moral entrepreneurs are likely to see the environment as more dangerous to health than does the layman, and to emphasise the seriousness of the health problem preoccupying them by estimating the cases probably undiagnosed and therefore untreated.

They are disposed to see mental illness where the layman sees nervousness, to see illness where the layman sees variations within the broad range of normality, to see a serious problem where the layman sees only a minor one. They are biased towards the creation of sick roles and press their licence as physicians to manage the newly defined sick within their relevant speciality frameworks.

In brief, the medical profession is more prone to see illness and the need for treatment than it is to see health and normality. This selective perception is both self-confirming and self-sustaining."

Shakespeare,

    Trazadone was what the doc gave Justin when he stopped his Paxil to "stabilize" his mood. You're right, it certainly doesn't work as a "mood stabilizer".

    Fortunately for Justin, his family and friends, I was able to convince him BEFORE  he stopped his Paxil, to get rid of all his guns.

    About a month later, Justin told me that if he had been able to get to his guns... there'd have been a couple of dead people.

    I was told by Doctors I trust that Cymbalta was a lot like Effexor and Zyprexa.

    As for the suicide rates..... the FDA hearings were on Feb. 2, 2004.  At the end of it, I asked a reporter if we won. She said.... Oh yeah.. BIG TIME !!

    We now have the media's attention to these deadly drugs.

    On Feb 7, 2004, a nondepressed, non suicidal young female clinical trial patient named Traci Johnson hung herself in the washroom of one of Eli Lilly's research labs. She was participating in a clinical trial involving Duloxetine...aka, Cymbalta and Entreve.

    The media jumped on that one and Eli Lilly spokespeople had to admit that there had been 7 suicides among the 4,224 clinical trial patients. That is 1 per 603 users.

    Help me understand the logic behind this....

    The FDA refused to approve Duloxetine as a "stress induced urinary incontinence" med because there had been 41 suicides and 13 other deaths among the clinical trial patients.

    BUT THE FDA HAS APPROVED IT AS AN ANTIDEPRESSANT !!!  (Is it because they think they can hide the suicides as being caused by the "depression" ??)

"In May 2003, the maker of the SSRI Paxil, GlaxoSmithKline (“GSK”), announced that it was withdrawing claims contained in its promotional material for Paxil (called Seroxat in Ireland and the UK) that the drug worked by normalizing levels of serotonin.

GSK acknowledged that the link between depression and serotonin levels is unproven and that such claims “were not consistent with the scientific literature.”

( http://www.baumhedlundlaw.com/media/ssri/Zoloft/CalifAttyGen /PFIZERCOMPLAINT.pdf Page 8 Footnote)

    PSYCHIATRISTS ARE LEGALIZED DRUG DEALERS !!!!

    In the last 5 years I have met only 2 who refused to prescribe drugs as a first line of treatment. One has resigned in disgust from the pressure to push drugs and the other has had her license in her home state lifted as a punishment.

    If they refuse to push drugs, they are punished.

Dear Susan,

    GET COPIES OF ALL YOUR CHILD'S MEDICAL RECORDS AND COPIES OF EVERY PRESCRIPTION EVER WRITTEN BY THAT DOCTOR FOR YOUR CHILD.

    ZYPREXA KILLS !!!  The manufacturer  Eli Lilly is trying to weasel out of thousands of lawsuits regarding this drug. It's an antipsychotic that causes diabetes.

    WELLBUTRIN is an antidepressant made by Glaxo SmithKline (GSK). It carries a BLACK BOX warning from the FDA regarding suicide in kids. Would you like to talk to some grieving parents ??.....

    TRAZADONE is a "mood stabilizer" that many Paxil patients are given when they start freaking out.

    DO NOT JUST STOP GIVING THESE DRUGS TO YOUR CHILD !!!! HE WITH HAVE TO BE TAPERED OFF SLOWLY !!!!

.... and just a little side note for all of you....  Eli Lilly's latest "FDA approved" antidepressant is called Cymbalta. It is a mix of a generic form of Wyeth's EFFEXOR  and Lilly's ZYPREXA.  The suicide rate among the clinical trials was 1 per 600 users. 

    I think you have a very good case for malpractice and I'd like to see this doctor stopped.  Email me at   prozackills2002@yahoo.ca

[/QUOTE]

Balanced, I agree with you on some levels, but on others you are loaded with misinformation. Trazadone is not a mood stabilizer in any sense of the word. In fact many bipolar patients are not given trazadone because it can actually induce mania. It is an old school antidepressant which is used at extremely low doses as a hypnotic/ sleep aid. Paxil users (and patients on other SSRI's) are sometimes given trazadone to help with insomnia comorbid with depression.

I can't even begin to speculate where you got your information on Cymbalta. Cymbalta (duloxetine) is in the same family as Wyeth's Effexor, but is not a component or reformulation of the drug. Effexor (venlafaxine) and Cymbalta are both dual acting Selective Seretonin/ Norepinephrine Reuptake Inhibitors and are currently the only 2 drugs available in this class. That is the extent of their similarity. They are no more the same drug than Prozac and Lexapro. The suicide rate, while I don't have exact figures available (I will look them up and get back to you) is no higher than with any other marketed antidepressant. And Cymbalta has no relationship to Zyprexa whatsoever. Lilly has marketed a drug called Symbyax which is a combination of fluoxetine (Prozac) and olanzapine (Zyprexa) which is approved for treating bipolar depression, not unipolar depression, because bipolar patients frequently switch into mania when treated with conventional antidepressant medications.

With regards to Zyprexa, I agree with you. Of all the atypical antipsyotics available, Zyprexa is the most effective by a small margin, but also the most dangerous. It has weight gain sometimes exceeding 100 pounds and an increased risk of diabetes which seems to be linked to the weight gain but also to glucose intolerance that the drug induces. There are much safer drugs available at present and unless they have been tried and failed I would not use Zyprexa as a first line option.

     Your son's doctor will not be cooperative at all. He will really hesitate to hand over all of the medical records.

     The Zyprexa is the deadliest one, so I suggest you get lower dose pills for your son as soon as you can.

     Wellbutrin is the mildest antidepressant and most people don't suffer too much when stopping it. But to be on the safe side, I suggest you lower it a bit at a time and leave the Trazadone in place for a while.

     Drug withdrawals generally last about 6 weeks after the last dose of the last pill. It's when you quit the final pill that trouble comes for about 2 harsh weeks. When you get to that point, he will have to be monitored 24/7..... AND I DO MEAN 24/7 !!!

     The warnings about antidepressants causing suicidal thoughts aren't as clear as I'd like them to be. It is not always a case of "progressive depression" leading to a suicide attempt. In many cases, the thought of killing yourself comes as a spontaneous "great" idea. OFTEN, THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO WARNING AT ALL !!!

     At the FDA hearings in Feb 2004, I met a dad whose son was talking about going snowboarding the next day and wondering which college he should pick.... and 15 minutes later he hanged himself.  No warning at all....

Dear Susan,

    GET COPIES OF ALL YOUR CHILD'S MEDICAL RECORDS AND COPIES OF EVERY PRESCRIPTION EVER WRITTEN BY THAT DOCTOR FOR YOUR CHILD.

    ZYPREXA KILLS !!!  The manufacturer  Eli Lilly is trying to weasel out of thousands of lawsuits regarding this drug. It's an antipsychotic that causes diabetes.

    WELLBUTRIN is an antidepressant made by Glaxo SmithKline (GSK). It carries a BLACK BOX warning from the FDA regarding suicide in kids. Would you like to talk to some grieving parents ??.....

    TRAZADONE is a "mood stabilizer" that many Paxil patients are given when they start freaking out.

    DO NOT JUST STOP GIVING THESE DRUGS TO YOUR CHILD !!!! HE WITH HAVE TO BE TAPERED OFF SLOWLY !!!!

.... and just a little side note for all of you....  Eli Lilly's latest "FDA approved" antidepressant is called Cymbalta. It is a mix of a generic form of Wyeth's EFFEXOR  and Lilly's ZYPREXA.  The suicide rate among the clinical trials was 1 per 600 users. 

    I think you have a very good case for malpractice and I'd like to see this doctor stopped.  Email me at   prozackills2002@yahoo.ca

[QUOTE=Tamaraw1969]My 12 year olds psychiatrist put my son on Adderall & Welbutrin. I also questioned her about him not being depressed, She said depression can look different in an ADHD child. It depends on that child.   [/QUOTE]

This is what kills me. My son shows NO signs of depression at all but they say what you said. I think that all these drugs WOULD make him depressed..LOL

I was so lucky to find this web forum! This site is great for us who are new to this whole thing. I thank you all for responding with your great info and advise! I love to read the good turnouts, it gives me hope! I thank you all for having the courage and dedication to your families and to wanting to help others in need!