Just curious | ADHD Information

(Bump)

Ah - if only we could educate - but it is as I said - they go by faith (believing in something without proof) and not facts. Might as well convince a hindu to enjoy a quarter pounder with cheese.

Balanced lost all credibility by bringing up totally bogus figures to try and bolster the idea that we are killing our loved ones. Right away my BS detector flew off the red.

It will take time - but they will take their ball home and find another group to bother. They want fear and intimidation. I wouldn't be surprised to find them throwing paint on fur wearers or waving foetuses at women at clinics. Fear is their bread and butter. I don't fear much and certainly not them.

i dont fear them either...but if they keep it up they better fear all of us...everytime they post something...my bs meter goes high....that is all they know is bs

Our ADHD BS meters come in handy don't they? But of course we're lying to ourselves - it's just boredom we suffer from. There's no such thing as ADHD - charleton heston doesn't have alzheimers - he was poisoned because he's pro gun, and George W. is a genius - not a sock puppet controlled by special interest groups.

We've been duped! LOL

[QUOTE=BALANCED]

" Balanced mentioned it to his buddy curus about how his site had taken out the pro-med people "finally". "

... Glen... that's not at all what I said. So, c'mon ... share... WHICH SSRI MED ARE YOU TAKING TODAY ???

It was the revelations at the FDA hearings in 2004 that shut up the pro SSRI morons on the other group.

I really don't care what your "group" has to say. People come here seeking info about treatments for ADHD. All I do is warn them that the drug company "cures" are far worse than the "disease".

[/QUOTE]

Ahem ... here is your quote - tell me - how did I get this wrong curmudgeon?

Posted: 13 October 2005 at 9:01pm | IP Logged

CURUS,

Remember my "new friends" on that DIT board ? They used to get into the personal attacks when they realized they couldn't fight the truth.

REMEMBER HOW THEY ALL DISAPPEARED AFTER THE FDA HEARINGS AND THE SUBSEQUENT MEDIA BARRAGE OF HOW WE'D BEEN LIED TO BY THE DRUG COMPANIES ABOUT SSRI ANTIDEPRESSANTS .

It's going to happen again... real soon.... on this board.

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Ooooh I'm very scared you scawwy twoll

you say the FDA and media - but you are the one who did the barraging. And- you never give alternatives to people - just try to shame them and beat them over the head with lies and skewed numbers. Millions of kids dying? Come on - over and over you hear the real numbers - small small percentages of kids - and since suicidal thoughts are often a reality with confused kids you can't even connect them correlatively to any meds.

You also keep bringing up SSRIs in a ADHD group. Stuck record? We are interested in making life better for us and our families. You just keep bringing up info that is either a lie or totally off topic. Mercury in immunization shots? Firstly it has never been proven that mercury in such a small dose can cause any grief - you get mercury in most coastal drinking water, fish, your fillings, metals you touch all the time, etc.

Oh, and I don't take SSRIs - the only thing that depresses me is that you pulled yourself out of the muck long enough for some poor sap to teach you what the internet is. Maybe go back to watching PAX network and planning to boycott abortion clinics?

Just sad - you keep trying to instill fear while you never give good reasons or an alternative. Maybe try "I don't think meds are good for you - why don't you try this?" Hmmm?

thank you glen...i couldnt of said it better myself....well put..

keep up the good work...b club member..

maybe they should start a club of trolls...as they are actually worse than trolls

A club of trolls? LOL - no don't think so.

Everyone just read and learn. To be a successful troll - never EVER stay on topic. When ADHD is mentioned - swing in a deceiptful stat on SSRIs. When that doesn't work - mention how you're killing kids with their innoculations.

Boy aren't the trolls smart?

[QUOTE=GlenW]

A club of trolls? LOL - no don't think so.

Boy aren't the trolls smart?

[/QUOTE]

roflmao.......i like your definition to the trolls....only wished balanced and curus....really had enough knowledge...as we all know they do not.....otherwise they would go elsewhere...how many times do we have to tell them we dont like what they are doing here and to leave....good gosh...when is enough enough?

Glen,

"... millions of kids being killed by medicines they don't need...

Get real !! It's only THOUSANDS OF THEM.

You know that post I made titled "My kinda guy" ? He wants to create a website with the pictures of the congressmen involved and pictures of all the children killed by "safe" prescription drugs next to it.

Well, the gang's thinking of doing it. If we combine all the info from all the sites, we'll easily come up with the names of a few THOUSAND kids.

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" Balanced mentioned it to his buddy curus about how his site had taken out the pro-med people "finally". "

... Glen... that's not at all what I said. So, c'mon ... share... WHICH SSRI MED ARE YOU TAKING TODAY ???

It was the revelations at the FDA hearings in 2004 that shut up the pro SSRI morons on the other group.

I really don't care what your "group" has to say. People come here seeking info about treatments for ADHD. All I do is warn them that the drug company "cures" are far worse than the "disease".

[QUOTE=BALANCED]

Glen,

"... millions of kids being killed by medicines they don't need...

Get real !! It's only THOUSANDS OF THEM.

Well, the gang's thinking of doing it. If we combine all the info from all the sites, we'll easily come up with the names of a few THOUSAND kids.

---------------------

" Balanced mentioned it to his buddy curus about how his site had taken out the pro-med people "finally". "

... Glen... that's not at all what I said. So, c'mon ... share... WHICH SSRI MED ARE YOU TAKING TODAY ???

It was the revelations at the FDA hearings in 2004 that shut up the pro SSRI morons on the other group.

I really don't care what your "group" has to say. People come here seeking info about treatments for ADHD. All I do is warn them that the drug company "cures" are far worse than the "disease".

[/QUOTE]

well our group really doesnt care what u have to say...and when you say all u do is warn us that the drug company "cures" are far worse than the "disease" is a crock of crap and u no it...

we have all done research and would never put ourselves or our kids on something that was wors than the disease....so either answer some of the questions we have asked u or go away.....

enough is enough...we have had enough of your bull crap lies and scare tactics...

chuckles and glen hit it right on....

you need to either get outta denial or seek pshychiatric treatment for your mental disorder...

chuckles,

" Side-effects for stimulant medications are exactly what they should be considering the medication and the natural effects of these chemicals in your body. Increased heart rate, sleeplessness, flushing, decreased appetite etc."

YOU LEFT OUT... DEATH, SEIZURES, SUICIDAL THOUGHTS, STUNTED GROWTH, ADDICTION... etc.

(Stephanie told me she took her son off Ritalin the night she walked into his room and saw him... " TWITCHING LIKE A COKEHEAD IN WITHDRAWALS. ".)

SO, IF YOU JUST KEEP TELLING ALL THE PEOPLE WHO COME TO THIS SITE ABOUT THE "WONDERS" OF THESE POISONS, I'LL KEEP TELLING THEM THE DARK SIDE OF THE TRUTH.

I think it's real funny that you actually claim that ...

"People that have ADHD that take stimulant therapy do not get a "high". If someone taking stimulants gets a "high", then they do not have ADHD. ADHDers cannot abuse stimulants because they do not get the same effect as a non-ADHDer, therefore it is not possible for them to become "addicted". "

SO WHY DO EVEN THE DRUG COMPANIES THAT MAKE THE ADHD "MEDS" CLAIM THAT THEY ARE ADDICTIVE ???

[QUOTE=BALANCED]

chuckles,

YOU LEFT OUT... DEATH, SEIZURES, SUICIDAL THOUGHTS, STUNTED GROWTH, ADDICTION... etc.

(Stephanie told me she took her son off Ritalin the night she walked into his room and saw him... " TWITCHING LIKE A COKEHEAD IN WITHDRAWALS. ".)

SO, IF YOU JUST KEEP TELLING ALL THE PEOPLE WHO COME TO THIS SITE ABOUT THE "WONDERS" OF THESE POISONS, I'LL KEEP TELLING THEM THE DARK SIDE OF THE TRUTH.

I think it's real funny that you actually claim that ...

SO WHY DO EVEN THE DRUG COMPANIES THAT MAKE THE ADHD "MEDS" CLAIM THAT THEY ARE ADDICTIVE ???

[/QUOTE]

again i have no clue where u get your false information but get real.......maybe you should do more research on add/adhd.....

Well put chuckles!!! Could NOT have put it better myself!

Just remember that these trolls are under a web of lies and deceipt about meds. They go to websites that skew the numbers to make it look like millions of kids are being killed by medicines they don't need - 2 things that are outright lies. They believe it whole cloth - without even questioning the data. Believe me I have tried. The make 20 kids out of millions turn into 1 in 600.

Debating these guys is like debating a Jehova's Witness about the efficacy of refusing blood donations. I am giving up.

They are told by the sites to come to our sites and cause havoc and try and kick us off. Balanced mentioned it to his buddy curus about how his site had taken out the pro-med people "finally". Check his postings - he relished in harming people there and causing fear and dissent in the group. He wants that here - his masters tell him to do so and he does.

Great points all - every med I have seen has major side effects listed to somebody - except oddly this one I take for Irritable Bowel (dicetel). Wierdly - they tested it at 1200 percent above normal dose and all it causes is gas! Strange indeed - even water at 1200 percent over normal can cause grief.

Keep watching and posting - glad we're not losing the battle!

They ignore a mother's concern about her son's chest pains because they don't want to admit to themselves that these ADHD "cures" are dangerous.

The best one is that Amphetamines are addictive... but not if you take a drug company's required dose every day.

And they're simply "fixing" the side effects with more drugs, turning little children into walking pharmacies.

A few people here have certainly got over-active imaginations!

What I consider a "troll" (using the term a few of you 'attack' anyone with any information other than what you want shown here) is someone who can't get his own PERSONAL story right let alone let anyone post any facts on the risks of drugs.

Why, for instance, would a senior middle aged man on a website which involves drugs that have risks attached (and lets face it, the only thing you know about anyone on the net is what that person tells you and who could be anybody) give out a story about himself and his marital life which for the most part remains consistent, and yet then writes one sentence that entirely contradicts everything he's said so far, making his life story utterly different?

Thats what I would call a 'troll'. You get them on porn sites and you get them on sites where drugs are involved. They usually work long and hard and spend many hours making their internet image one that is particularly popular, because the more people that believe they're such friendly (and therefore accepted as trustworthy) individuals, then the more masses a troll has available to defend them when they attack. Trolls are also the ones, where there's any perceived threat to their position, who are always the loudest in leading sustained personal attacks (and encourage their trusting 'fan club' to join them) on others by using the accusation of "TROLL".

Another thing, a mother of a child left a message here yesterday (Trevs girl or something like that). Her little boy has pains in his chest. She was concerned and waiting for a nurse and had come here looking for help.

Why is it that some people can muster up such enormous focus and energy to use in ego-massaging attacks on others, spending hours online doing so, and yet those same people can completely ignore a mother's very understandable concern about a little boy with chest pains and, worse still, rather than at least answer her first, post yet another attack (chuckles with the start of THIS thread) DIRECTLY above hers - that was the order the posts were in when I noticed her message? Is that SUPPORT?

I don't think so.

curus38640.1440740741How is your back Brid??[QUOTE=curus]

[/QUOTE]

This is exactly why you are a Troll and a dangerous one to this site. We are used to kind people who really listen to each individuals personal story. We do not judge. We put our hearts and minds into the response that will most help.

So when people like you come here plastering pages and pages of articles everywhere you look - we feel invaded and untrusting. So because of you, I ignored that lady whose child was having chest pains because I thought she was a part of your group and just a "plant". If I had a child having chest pains I would be busting into ER or my doctors office not posting on a ADHD board. If I am wrong then you are too blame for my distrust and I apologize to this lady. So you see, YOU ARE DANGEROUS.

And by the way: If you think parents on this board haven't read the articles or similar ones that you posted you are sorely mistaken. We have probably the best educated group of people you can find online about the pros and cons of medication for ADHD as well as those who have a wealth of information for alternatives to meds. And most of them have chosen to ignore you competely and I'm loving it. I RESPECT and TRUST THEM, I DON'T TRUST YOU AND WHY SHOULD I.

If you believe you sucessfully convinced others on another board that what you say is true, you are sadly mistaken. They go away because they are totally bored with you. It is fun, initially, to argue and then we take to ignoring you because we see what a disservice you do to newcomers.

If you want to stay and get to know us individuallly we will welcome you. I have stopped reading your posts days ago. And you can be sure I am "behind the scenes" warning newbies of you. My advise....TUCK YOUR TAIL AND LEAVE or stay and really get to know the people on this board and each of their individual and unique circumstances.

[QUOTE=Auntie][QUOTE=curus]

[/QUOTE]

If I thought someone were a plant I would still put my perception of others being trolls AFTER the need of someone with a little boy in trouble. In fact I was actually worried that the message just MIGHT be there as a trap to have yet another go about point out the risks. I fully expected someone to post afterwards that I shouldn't 'frighten a mother' or something similar. Kind of dreaded looking again at the message in case that was it.

However, I put the risk of receiving a vindictive reply aside and answered anyway because if that mother and her little boy was genuine, I'd rather risk another tirade than risk her not being aware that the drug her boy was on had those warnings.

The way YOU react (or fail to react) to someone because of your own misconceptions does not make ME a troll.

You have no reason to trust or respect me or anyone else on the internet - your ideas about who is worth knowing and who is not, and your way of dealing with it is up to you.

As you say, you found it "fun" to argue (and your idea of arguing is by trying to drive someone out, make fun of them, etc), and you're "loving" the rest of it. I don't doubt it for one minute.

Don't you think its difficult for a poster to 'get to know people' on this board when a few decided right from the beginning that they will ensure that the person is humiliated and insulted with messages like the one you've just posted?

And why would I want to "get to know people" who find it 'fun' to behave like that towards others? I don't. I wouldn't want to get to know anyone who gets enjoyment out of insulting others.

I have got to know (a little) a few people here and I like them. Needless to say - they're aren't ones who have behaved like you.

curus38643.4533449074Those of you who are so against medicating for a physiological disorder, are you against all types of medication or just those for mental health issues?

I find it hard to believe that you can decide that medications for ADHD, depression, BPD, schizophrenia etc are so much worse than any other type of medication out there...or is it that you have absolutely no idea about any other types of medications?

I also would find it hard to believe that you have never taken a medication for any type of infection, illness, or disease. Have you ever read the side effects for antibiotics? Have you read the side effects for cold remedies and cough syrups? Do you know the side effects for cancer therapies and pain medication? Do you know that even water can be harmful if you get too much or too little? I can't imagine that you don't eat chocolate or have a sip of soda? Side-effects for stimulant medications are exactly what they should be considering the medication and the natural effects of these chemicals in your body. Increased heart rate, sleeplessness, flushing, decreased appetite etc. All symptoms of an increased amount of naturally occurring stimulants in your body. In rare cases where one would have an undetected anomoly, such as a heart problem, these chemicals would be deadly....no kidding. My husband, prior to medication therapy would self medicate with caffeine, upwards of several pots a day of coffee. His heart would sometimes race and he couldn't sleep sometimes, but he could think a whole lot clearer. Funny thing. My husband works as a paramedic and he does a wonderful job, can multi-task like he has eight arms, and can manage a scene with multiple criticals because of the adrenaline rush that he gets. It is much like taking stimulant therapy, but really hard to bottle an intense scene or patient. When at home, he cannot complete a single task without getting distracted.

Amphetamines and stimuluant medications are derivatives of chemicals that are naturally occurring in your body. Stimulant medications make up for something that someone with ADHD is lacking in their brains. Neurotransmitter levels are different in ADHD brains. This physiological process is much like a diabetic whose pancreas does not produce enough insulin. Diabetics take insulin to make up for something that their body is lacking. Insulin has many side effects, one of which is death, but the benefits of taking insulin far outweigh the risks of side effects and the side effects can be managed.

Untreated ADHD can have the same devastating effects as untreated diabetes. Loss of life: Many ADHDers are so impulsive that they will run into traffic or engage in very high risk behaviors, some become addicted to substances for self-medication and to quiet the bees in their heads, we don't know the number of untreated ADHDers that commit suicide. Loss of productivity: ADHDers cannot always reach their potential because of the symptoms of the disorder just as many diabetics that are not treated appropriately end up with disabilities and an inability to contribute to society. Related disorders: depression and anxiety as a result of constant failure despite hard work, anxiety and depression related to social situations where they don't feel as if they fit in, much like diabetics who are not able to go about life because of their illness and feel singled-out because of their illness.

Facts are facts: People that have ADHD that take stimulant therapy do not get a "high". If someone taking stimulants gets a "high", then they do not have ADHD. ADHDers cannot abuse stimulants because they do not get the same effect as a non-ADHDer, therefore it is not possible for them to become "addicted". Diabetics that take insulin to get back to baseline are not achieving a "high" but rather a regulation, just as ADHDers are when taking stimulant therapy. More people who are untreated medicinally for ADHD end up abusing substances to achieve the regulation that treated ADHDers achieve. The list goes on and on.

It is really beyond me that people like Balanced and Curus and others so strongly against ADHD medications, can listen to people on this board who struggle with this disorder themselves or with their children day in and day out, and turn a deaf ear to the stories about how medications have helped. ADHD medications save lives for those that take them and that cannot be ignored. I find it very interesting that Balanced and Curus don't post on the other forums here because they most likely don't have ADHD, don't know anyone who has ADHD, and couldn't comprehend the damage done to lives because of this disorder. Benefits far outweigh the risks in many cases.

If medications aren't your cup of tea, state your claim and then move on. People here don't need any more garbage to look through when making this decision. I am also asking that those on this forum who feel the need to post entire articles or studies, please just post the link. Wading through scientific papers or lengthy articles is bothersome and really does not get your point across. [QUOTE=curus]

[/QUOTE]

Troll v.) (1) To deliberately post derogatory or inflammatory comments to a community forum, chat room, newsgroup and/or a blog in order to bait other users into responding

Hmmm...

terms like "you're killing your kids", "your kids will become drug addicts", et. al. sure sound like inflammatory comments.

You bait - but aren't giving any alternatives. You say we have no right to medicate our children - yet where are the options?

I'd love to let you and balanced troll along but you answer new people here who ask what to do with "you're going to kill your kid if you give them meds". You don't say "I think meds are bad - why don't you try herbal treatments" - just that they are bad parents if they even look at the light.

Bad, bad trolls!

sdw i am glad to hear that the strattera is working for you....i hope that it continues to work for u. keep us updated on how u r doing...we all are here for u[QUOTE=curus]

A few people here have certainly got over-active imaginations!

I don't think so.

[/QUOTE]

sorry i was in the dr office most of the day yesterday due to a back injury and due to my hubby having an injury from work...so i did not see her post on her son having chest pains otherwise i would of replied and tried to help her...so dont assume that i am only here to bother u...if u notice i have helped out a lot on the forum and have been helped out alot also....so now who is the ignorant one? yep u r right it is not me it is YOU

Obvously, if someone is having bad side effects with drugs...to include chest pain, rectal bleeding, etc etc, by all means, QUIT TAKING THEM. If someone is having a postitive effect using drugs and their quiality of life improves, BY ALL MEANS TAKE THEM. Duh. It's pretty strait forward. We no longer die at the age of 42 because of advances in medicine. Do all doctors or drug companies have our best interest at heart? Not entirely, then again, not the complete opposite either. There will always be people on polar opposites to every topic. I do not find polar opposites bad. You need extremest to make a point otherwise no one will listen. Do we need them on this board? Perhaps, perhaps not. I think harrassing people is not necessary. Keep in mind, people on the extreme end of the scale are typically NOT typical. They enjoy fighting a cause regaurdless of it's merit or effect on those they expose their views to. Their agenda becomes bias...to the point that they loose credibility. You can say the info came from this source, that source, it doesn't really matter because you can always find a source to support your beliefs. Their whole goal is to get people to think...regaurdless of their credibility or lack of reality. They do not look at a subject from all sides. They simply have a single minded agenda and arguing with them is pointless. The people who meet in the middle are typically a bit more well adjusted. Or they just are not activist. I do not think this is the forum to degrade people because of extreme view points. I, personally, at first, let those people who are extremest on this forum bother me. The more I thought about it the more I just think of them as I would extreme republicans, extreme democrates, extreme gay activist, extreme animal rights folks, the list goes on. You cannot reason with people like this. Their existance and thoughts are consumed to the point of unreasonable arguements. In our case, here in this forum, they are using "child deaths" as their cause. I'm not a child. I do not have a child. I have no idea what children have to do with me and ADHD.

Soo, for myself it's best to read their post, listen to them and then use my own intelect to arive at my own conclusions. I appreciate their warnings once or twice. Then it is just rhetoric. Blah blah blah.

So far strattera has been working for me. It's only day 5 but my thoughs seem to be matriculating and the buzz in my head seems a little more calm. It's a relief. I don't have to focus like a gorilla to think first thing in the morning. I have also noticed I am staying on task with greater ease. My anxiety is also leveling I think due to the fact that I can pinpoint thoughts and don't have to "grab" at them in by brain to get them to make sense. I can't wait untill the full effect. It's going to be such a relief to think clearly and with "finesse" instead of straining to try and mold all those thoughts buzzing around in my head. I will know what it is like to achieve my goals professionaly. I will know what it is like to have full and happy personal relationships. I will know what it is like to "have my sh*t together". I have always strived at sucesses so attributing my lack of sucess <although I am considered sucessful on the overall average....good white collar job that requires a degree...good relationship with my partner....NOT that these things are required for happiness. They just seem to be something society as a whole thinks is necessary to "make it".>

I thank all of the people on this board both in the alternative medicine forum and this forum who have shared there HELPFULL opinions. I enjoy reading what others are experiencing and it gives me comfort to know I am not the only one. I also take Omega 3 and L tyrosine in conjuction with the herbal stomach and GI track remedies to counter side effects <so far, no side effects>. The aloe vera concentrate detox flushes my liver and kidneys to keep them healthy. The aloe very concentrate stomach helps maintain healty acid levels and a healthy stomach/GI track/colon. The L-tyrosine helps with the brain chemistry. The strattera is calming my thoughts and helping be use my full mental focus and function. I'm not really sure what the Omega 3's do!!! I've read on the alternative forum and they seem to do good stuff to the brain. WOO HOO.

So, to all the nay sayers. f**k off. Post your opinion and move on. I still have to make an effort to keep ignorant people from getting on my nerves.

sdw22738640.425775463

First of all...give me a break. Most people who jump into a debate, including you, get great pleasure out of trying to get your point across or best the other. You are a good debater (unlike Balanced) and you can't tell me you don't enjoy it. That is what I meant by it being fun. If you think I was any more rude than you were to the people on this forum -then you are in denial. You greatly offended me and I know many others by your approach.

You tell me how you would feel if your child had cancer and you were on a Forum designed to help people living with cancer cope and I came aboard and lamblasted the forum with articles accusing parents of harming their kids with Chemotherapy, Radiation, and pills they are giving their kids. That they are killing their kids because so many die, regardless of or because of the treatments and they should just eat healthy to "cure" the cancer. You would laugh at me, wouldn't you? Well, that is exactly how I feel about you. (And if you are thinking I couldn't find articles to support that belief - that radiation and/or chemo is bad you are greatly mistaken)

If you had came to this board and introduced yourself like 99.9 of people do and told us about yourself, who in your family has ADHD, and spent some time on this board and decided to share some of your findings you would not have been attacked...provided you did it in the right manner and not accusingly. We have many member who do not medicate their children who share alternatives with us and we are grateful. Your information is not new to us...don't you understand????? We have people like you come, blast us with the same old stuff, cause termoil and then they go away for a while.

BTW: I have used "we" because I know some feel exactly the way I do but I want to clarify I am not speaking for all.

Chuckles if this is a chemical imbalance issue then adding the chemicals lacking in would and should do the job. This cite says this disorder is a behavior disorder.

Why do you people answer these Questions.... Dead

Quit, answering and trying to explain, it is a waste of your breath.

Go answer some questions and help people that are really looking for help...reply to true parents/adults post.

Don't waste your time....with these people.

Montana Mom Smile

past member/Bren: From my reading and research, ADHD has not been conclusively categorized into either a behavioral disorder or a chemical disorder. There are just to many facets to human development. Some parts of ADHD have a definite genetic link as we see in many families who have multiple members that have been diagnosed. Other parts are able to be altered by behavior modification. I am a strong proponent of multi-modal therapy for ADHD. Medication plus behavioral therapy. Treat the chemical imbalance with medication or chemicals and treat the behavior with behavioral modification. If anything, medication gives an ADHDer a chance to be able to modify their own behavior by keeping the level of Dopamine in the brain at a "normal" or at least workable level. That is also why I am a believer in 24/7 dosing for kids and adults with ADHD, it gives them the opportunity to learn in a "normal" state and this learning will stay with them, rather than disappear when off of medication. Certain tasks like organization, scheduling, sticking to commitments etc would be much more manageable with the help of medication to bring their brains to a baseline level. This is all of course, my opinion, but I don't know how it can be disputed with the current scientific research. Nature versus nurture always enters into mental health issues because the brain is such a complex organ.

From my experience with my husband, adding the chemicals to the brain does do the job for him. His medication has done wonders. Curus, I will just agree to disagree about the poster whose child was having chest pain. This is not the correct forum for that type of information and a message board is not the place to receive medical information to that end. There is a disclaimer for this purpose. I too, hope her child is okay and that it was heartburn and I would have advised her to call her clinic, which she had already done. Apart from that, my hands just as yours, are tied. The healthcare information about medications, in my opinion, should come from her healthcare provider/son's healthcare provider or her pharmacist. I would hope people wouldn't start a medication without looking into it and that one would act as their own advocate....just my opinion and nothing else.

With regards to addiction and dependency. Addiction is not the same as physical dependency. Addiction is a psychological dependency and the roots are very different than a physical dependency on a substance. I don't know how they do things in the UK, nor how they arrived at the conclusions that you posted. They do not use the lowest possible dose to prevent dependency, they start with the lowest dose to achieve the desired effect of the medication because stimulant therapies need to be titrated to dose to achieve the correct therapeutic level. This is the case because every body is different and how they metabolize medications is different. My husband takes Adderall and he started at the lowest dose and worked up to achieve a therapeutic dose and even at the dose that works best for him, it wears off much sooner than 12 hours. He is now looking into a boost of afternoon medication so he can have the right dose throughout his waking hours. At some point, some people achieve the upper limits of dosing on a medication because their body metabolizes things quicker or learns how to use the medication quicker, then another class or family needs to be looked into. My husband has a high tolerance for pain medication and it takes a lot of certain pain medications to reach a therapeutic dose for him, as we found out when he had his wisdom teeth removed and had surgery for a hernia. Others, like me don't react very well to pain medication at all and there isn't much I can take, which made it difficult for me after my appendectomy. It doesn't mean my husband is addicted to pain medication or that I couldn't ever develop an addiction to pain medications. Over time, people need more of certain types and classes of medications and therapies because they need more to achieve the desired effect, that doesn't mean you become addicted to the drug or even physically dependent. Some people have a difference in anesthetics and the list goes on and on.

I know here in the US they are moving away from recommending weekend holidays or breaks from medication and they were never recommended for the purposes of keeping an addiction in check. They were generally recommended for managing side-effects like weight loss and sleeplessness or to see if symptoms of the disorder subsided. They are finding out more and more that the symptoms don't subside and many children will continue with the same symptoms into adulthood. The latest recommendations that I have heard and read about are for continuous therapy, especially if the child or adult suffers from severe impulsiveness that could result in death or injury.

I think the definition of addiction has been misconstrued in the example you set forth above and also in Balanced's postings. An insulin-dependent diabetic is not considered addicted to insulin because they need to regulate the amount of sugar in their blood. If they eat more sugar, they need more insulin. An ADHDer needs stimulant therapy to regulate the levels of dopamine in their brains and some need more or less depending on their levels. This is really a maintainence disorder, some people can regulate with diet changes and others need more significant therapies...just as some diabetics can maintain with diet (diet-controlled type 2 diabetics) and others need more significant therapies (anywhere from oral to injected or pump-supplied insulin) and this changes throughout their lives. Some start with diet-controlled, but by the time they are 15 years into treatments they are on a pump. That is the nature of maintainence medication for medical disorders. Blood-pressure medications, cholesterol medications, heart medications, cancer medications, HIV medications are all the same....dosages change and people develop a tolerance to certain drugs where they don't develop a tolerance to others. The body is dynamic which is why pharmacology is so interesting. My husband has also found that when he is more active, running or biking, his medication wears off more quickly. Should he stop physical activity or should he look into a better dosing regimen?

Controlled substances in the US have to have a label warning about addiction, that is why they are controlled substances. Being a healthcare provider who does administer medications, I have a duty to advise my patients about the risks and side-effects of every medication that I might give them, as well as a duty to advise them of the indications and effects of the drug. Many medications have very positive side effects and many have very negative side effects. For some it is a matter of interpretation, an erection from a drug prescribed for angina, may be good for some, but bad for others. There is a drug goven for rapid heartbeat, that one of the side effects is the heart stopping....I have told many patients, "your heart will stop for a second and that can be scary, but that is how the drug works".

So long story short, the risk of addiction for ADHD drugs, in my opinion, is very low if used appropriately for an indicated disorder and under the care of a physician. The above quote from the UK is erroneous, because addiction is a psychological dependence and does not equate to a physical dependence. That is not raising a dose to achieve the desired effect. Each person needs to be their own medical advocate and know what medications they are putting into their bodies. That's all and have a great day!

[QUOTE=chuckles101301]

...With regards to addiction and dependency. Addiction is not the same as physical dependency. Addiction is a psychological dependency and the roots are very different than a physical dependency on a substance. I don't know how they do things in the UK, nor how they arrived at the conclusions that you posted. They do not use the lowest possible dose to prevent dependency, they start with the lowest dose to achieve the desired effect of the medication because stimulant therapies need to be titrated to dose to achieve the correct therapeutic level. ...

...I think the definition of addiction has been misconstrued in the example you set forth above and also in Balanced's postings. An insulin-dependent diabetic is not considered addicted to insulin because they need to regulate the amount of sugar in their blood. If they eat more sugar, they need more insulin. An ADHDer needs stimulant therapy to regulate the levels of dopamine in their brains and some need more or less depending on their levels. This is really a maintainence disorder, some people can regulate with diet changes and others need more significant therapies...just as some diabetics can maintain with diet (diet-controlled type 2 diabetics) and others need more significant therapies (anywhere from oral to injected or pump-supplied insulin) and this changes throughout their lives....

...They are finding out more and more that the symptoms don't subside and many children will continue with the same symptoms into adulthood... [/quote]

Yes, I think we will have to agree to disagree on some of the points

UK health advisory's for the nation are not decided on lightly and it may be that there is more awareness - or perhaps a little less pharmaceutical influence - that brings them to their conclusions.

I would point out (re the second paragraph that I've quoted from your post), that there it is the matter that diabetics that need insulin have a lack of insulin - however much it varies due to age, metabolism, etc. Logically, based on that scientific evidence, they take the insulin that they lack to ensure survival.

As far as medical scientific evidence shows: a) the human body makes insulin which is vital to its function, but diabetics show a deficiency in insulin, and b) the human body does not make amphetamines (or similar) and therefore the human body cannot be said to suffer from a deficiency of amphetamines.

I also believe that parents who are not informed of side effects cannot be responsible for not knowing about side effects. The following extracts are also from the UK, written by Dr Sayeed Ahmad:

http://www.homeoint.org/site/ahmad/adhd-add.htm

"...Many information bulletins about MPH minimise these known facts, or omit details altogether. A recent survey of 65 parents referred into a treatment clinic found that none of them had been informed about side-effects. Moreover, none of them had been informed that MPH was addictive, or even that it was an amphetamine. No parents had been offered any non-drug treatment alternatives. Many prescriptions had been written for children as young as 3, 4 or 5, even though the drug manufacturer instructions prohibit use of MPH for children younger than 6. Also, parents mistakenly attributed drug side-effects to the supposed 'underlying biological condition' of ADHD.

There are 230 other psychological and social therapies for children that do not involve drugging with amphetamines. These therapies include (but are not limited to): psychotherapy, behaviour therapy, behaviour modification, counseling and family therapy. Irresponsible prescribing behaviour is impossible to justify. In four health districts in the UK, GPs have been advised not to write repeat prescriptions for MPH..."

So perhaps there's a need for clinics like this one in the UK:

http://www.santa.inuk.com/cactus.htm

" CACTUS Offering a non-drugging alternative for children and teenagers who have been diagnosed with ADHD.

At the University of Teesside we have established Counselling And Clinical Training UnitS (CACTUS) to provide a range of services for children and teenagers. The service we provide involves: Withdrawal from psychotropic drugs, including psychostimulants such as methylphenidate (MPH) Individual programmes for children with psychological, personal or educational needs

Such programmes often involve behavioural self-control training, where the child or teenager learns appropriate self-monitoring skills. We have a range of other programmes that include psychotherapy and counselling when appropriate..."

Could it be that the "symptoms don't subside" because the medication is not appropriate for those symptoms? For instance, on the Durham, England, study and others, ADHD symptoms subsided remarkably with a change in diet to one that included nutritious food or omega 3 supplements.

A good day to you too.

curus38642.5673726852Balanced: I did not leave out death and the like as side effects, I merely put an etc because the list is long and different for each of the meds. Also, the reason they put that warning (about addiction) is because people who do not have the medical problem that the medication is used to treat, can become addicted to the medication. That is why it is a controlled substance. Just like they have to put a warning on shampoo bottles and other things, so the general public doesn't get harmed by the contents of the bottle. Common sense is absolutley something that you appear to lack and we need to take care of the least common denominator lest we get sued. Pain medication can be addictive, OTC sleep aids can be addictive, nasal sprays can be addictive....I am currently addicted to my chapstick but on the list of addictions it is one I am willing to have in order to have smooth and soft lips.

You have no medical claims and your arguments are tired and overused. People on this site are too smart to listen to your rambling and actually believe your garbage. You really have not talked much about ADHD causes, treatments, symptoms, diagnosis etc. This isn't your forte, so maybe you should walk to a different board where you are not seen as intrusive and uneducated, and merely on the board to push people's buttons.

I am here to exchange accurate and helpful information. If I feel a person is looking for information about medicating or not medicating, I will offer my suggestions and my story and they can take what they need and leave the rest. I have never told someone they were irresponsible or neglectful for choosing to not medicate. It is a personal choice. Please stop telling people they are irresponsible or hurtful for choosing to medicate their children or themselves.

Thanks to those who are supportive.

Curus: I did not reply to the poster who posted about her child having chest pain because I believe that most people know what to do in that situation and the poster said she had already contacted the nurse line. The nurse line most likely will advise her of the appropriate actions in her case. We cannot know the story unless we are there. As a health care provider, I had a million questions for her, but I can do nothing for her over the computer...that is for her MD to handle in her location. Guilting people because they are not putting one poster to the top of the list is really a needless way to hurt people and it is just not nice. There are many people who care for the people on this board and have empathy for their situations, but this is not a hospital/clinic or emergency room setting. Would you post that you were having chest pain on the internet and hope that someone from the ambulance read your post and sent a rig? I hope not.

[QUOTE=GlenW]

Troll v.) (1) To deliberately post derogatory or inflammatory comments to a community forum, chat room, newsgroup and/or a blog in order to bait other users into responding

Hmmm...

terms like "you're killing your kids", "your kids will become drug addicts", et. al. sure sound like inflammatory comments.

You bait - but aren't giving any alternatives. You say we have no right to medicate our children - yet where are the options?

Bad, bad trolls!

[/QUOTE]

Where have I said 'you're killing your kids' or 'your kids will become drug addicts', 'you have no right to medicate your children' ? I mostly post articles.

What exactly were the articles I posted on Omega supplements and diet changes etc, if they're not alternatives?

I totally agree that trolls post derogatory and inflammatory comments.

That how I got here. Presumably so will many others, in exactly the same way. I was searching re med-related issues, nothing to do with ADHD, when a link showed up blatently derogatory, or more accurately perhaps derogatory and defamatory, comments about Dr Baughman. This link:

http://adhdnews.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7586&PN=1

Dr Fred Baughman is a respected neurologist worldwide - respected by those who both agree or do not agree with his view of ADHD. Those comments would not have been made in a courtroom, trolls are also cowards and like to make their attacks behind the relative safety of unknown identities and cover of the internet rather than face legal consequences for their actions. They were, as you describe it, the intentional actions of "trolls", or the actions of people who should have checked the facts before posting such derogatory and defamatory remarks.

I suspect those posts were MOSTLY made by the former, as it is very clear that a few of you are very hot on continuing to discredit anyone with information you don't wish to be available to others with derogatory remarks such as 'its being posted by "Trolls".

The action of a few trolls attempting to discredit the views of a respected neurologist by posting particularly derogatory and defamatory remarks and about his professional status and his personal beliefs have backfired in that it actually discredits nothing but this website.

Firstly by showing that there are some people on the site who are happy to lie both generally and specifically in order to discredit any expert or information that they don't agree with.

Secondly it brings into question the credibility of the information generally on a site where the administration has not objected and deleted derogatory untrue personal attacks on a respected neurologist or indeed on ordinary posters.

Thirdly, and sadly, it reflects - by association - on the innocent posters who are here to support each other or to seek help and accurate information on both sides of the issue.

Just as some people find this site intentionally by search, others will find it (as I did) accidentally due to offensive remarks about respected experts showing up on search engine links. If this site IS credible and administration simply have failed to notice the attack in question, then the tactics used to discredit Dr Baughman have done adhdnews a great injustice and could even possibly damage its reputation long term.

[QUOTE=chuckles101301]
Curus: I did not reply to the poster who posted about her child having chest pain because I believe that most people know what to do in that situation and the poster said she had already contacted the nurse line. The nurse line most likely will advise her of the appropriate actions in her case. We cannot know the story unless we are there. As a health care provider, I had a million questions for her, but I can do nothing for her over the computer...that is for her MD to handle in her location. Guilting people because they are not putting one poster to the top of the list is really a needless way to hurt people and it is just not nice. There are many people who care for the people on this board and have empathy for their situations, but this is not a hospital/clinic or emergency room setting. Would you post that you were having chest pain on the internet and hope that someone from the ambulance read your post and sent a rig? I hope not. [/QUOTE]

Chuckles: "Most people" is not 'everyone' and it excludes the worry of a Mom who was clearly a newcomer to whichever medication her son was on - she said something about him having been on it for only a few days. She had contacted a nurse and still wanted help. She had done what she thought was fine (and may indeed turn out to be find, perhaps it is/was heartburn) and was asking for further information. When someone has a child with pains in the chest and is on his first medication then the mother can be totally new to drugs effects, and having read mostly glowing information for these drugs on her first visit might easily doubt that there is any serious side effects or medical emergency and so fail to take what MIGHT have turned out to be the correct action - call her MD rather than a nurse, or take the child to ER to be on the safe side.

You seem to be implying that the Mom should have known better than to post on a support board for help. She may be a very young mom too. She isn't guilty of anything other than 'newbie' unawareness of the adverse effects of the drugs. What if the nurse was making her own judgement (and a mistake) rather than first seeking the advice of an MD? Mom AND the little boy at least deserved to be made aware of the literature for whichever med her son was on that states that she should call a doctor for chest pains so that she ensured that her child got adequate medical attention asap or that the nurse had spoken to an MD.

With all due respect YOUR original post on this thread to Balanced and myself was not very nice and intended to belittle, discredit and to 'guilt'. As a health care practitioner and therefore educated, I assume that you do actually know how to behave courteously and fairly in you dealings with others, and that when you do not, you are aware of the effect it is intended to create on the recipient.

I know there are many people here who genuinely have concern about others. Its very possibly they weren't online.

All that aside, I hope the little boy is OK and that it turned out to be just a case of heartburn or similar.

Editing: I understand that you are addressing the first part of your message to Balanced and apologies for replying to a part of that message but I do feel that, as you are a Health Care Provider, this matter really does need addressing in case your field includes advising parents with regard to ADHD drugs and related problems. You said:

("Balanced:....Also, the reason they put that warning (about addiction) is because people who do not have the medical problem that the medication is used to treat, can become addicted to the medication..."

There are national health authority advisories that do not totally agree, such as the UK National Health Service:

http://www.nhsdirect.nhs.uk/he.asp?articleID=40&LinkID=1 13

"...The risk of dependency i.e. addiction or need for a higher dose to get the same effect is often a concern for carers of children with ADHD. To keep this risk to an absolute minimum the specialist will use the lowest possible dose and may recommend occasional breaks in treatment. It is therefore very important that you do not alter the dose that your child has been prescribed..."

curus38642.4329282407

More on the UK and medication from this month's Psychminded - which is a site "for all who work in psychology, psychiatry and mental health".

http://www.psychminded.co.uk/news/news2005/oct05/ADHD%20is%2 0biobabble.htm

"...In fact Dr Sami Timimi is dedicated to weaning children off the drugs. For him, the medication is "highly addictive" and has chemical properties which are "virtually indistinguishable" from amphetamines like cocaine and speed.

Timimi, who works for Lincolnshire Partnership NHS Trust, is arguably the leading UK psychiatrist critical of the ADHD diagnosis.

His book, 'Naughty Boys; Anti-Social Behaviour, ADHD and the role of culture' is the first authoritative critique of the ADHD diagnosis - and related prescribing - by a UK psychiatrist..."

Maybe UK health advisory make their decision re drug dependence as listed under side effects and if addiction is a "psychological dependency" then both Adderall and Dexedrine have addictive qualities when prescribed for their purpose. It's not clear whether Ritalin and Concerta do too from the list:

http://www.drugs.com/mtm/R/Ritalin.html

� Methylphenidate may cause drug dependence.

http://www.drugs.com/mtm/A/Adderall.html

Amphetamine-dextroamphetamine is habit forming. Physical and psychological dependence may occur with the use of this medication, and withdrawal effects may occur if you stop taking it suddenly after several weeks of continuous use.

http://www.drugs.com/mtm/D/Dexedrine.html

� Dextroamphetamine is habit forming. You can become physically and psychologically dependent on this medication, and withdrawal effects may occur if you stop taking it suddenly after several weeks of continuous use.

http://www.drugs.com/mtm/C/Concerta.html

� Methylphenidate may cause drug dependence.

Its hard to tell what "drug dependence" means with Concerta and Ritalin exactly, though Merck Source have the definition of "dependence" as physical or emotional/psychological, so I suppose its open to interpretation on those two:

http://www.mercksource.com/pp/us/cns/cns_hl_dorlands.jspzQzp gzEzzSzppdocszSzuszSzcommonzSzdorlandszSzdorlandzSzdmd_d_09z Pzhtm

dependence (de�pen�dence) (de-pen�d[schwa]ns) 1. a state of relying on or requiring the aid of something, particularly for support or maintenance. 2. a state in which there is a compulsive or chronic need, as for a drug; see substance d.

emotional dependence, psychological d.

physical dependence, physiological dependence, substance dependence in which there is evidence of tolerance, withdrawal, or both.

polysubstance dependence, [DSM-IV], substance dependence in which three or more substances, excluding nicotine and caffeine, are used repeatedly, with none of them predominating.

psychoactive substance dependence, substance abuse

psychological dependence, substance dependence in which the drug is used to obtain relief from tension or emotional discomfort, rather than being associated with tolerance or withdrawal. Called also emotional d.

substance dependence, [DSM-IV], compulsive use of a substance despite significant problems resulting from such use. Although tolerance and withdrawal were previously defined as necessary and sufficient for dependence, they are currently only two of several possible criteria; others include taking the substance longer or in larger amounts than planned, repeatedly expressing a desire or attempting unsuccessfully to cut down or regulate use, and continuing use in the face of acknowledged substance-induced physical or mental problems. The term is sometimes used more narrowly to refer only to physiological dependence, and in this sense it may be considered to be a phenomenon distinct from tolerance. DSM-IV includes specific substance dependence disorders for alcohol, amphetamines or similarly acting sympathomimetics, cannabis, cocaine, hallucinogens, inhalants, nicotine, opioids, phencyclidines or similarly acting substances, and sedatives, hypnotics, or anxiolytics, as well as one for multiple substances (polysubstance).

curus38643.1167476852