Proof Vacines don’t cause autism

By David Brown
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, May 19, 2004; Page A02

The Institute of Medicine, a highly influential adviser of the government on scientific matters, said yesterday there is no credible evidence that either the measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine or vaccines containing the preservative thimerosal cause autism.

The conclusion came in an 81-page report requested by two federal agencies to address the doubts raised by a small but vocal group of parents who question the safety of childhood vaccines.

A 14-person panel of experts urged more research on autism but said further pursuit of possible links between vaccines and the devastating neurological disorder is probably not worth the money and effort.

Reports published in 2001 by the same committee found no connection between the MMR vaccine and autism, and insufficient evidence to draw conclusions about thimerosal, a mercury-based preservative added to multiple-dose vials of vaccine. Since then, enough new studies have been published to confidently reject both theories, the panel said.

Especially convincing were a Danish study showing no difference in the rate of autism between children who got thimerosal-containing vaccines and those who did not and a British study showing no relationship between the introduction of MMR and autism rates, or between the timing of a vaccination and the onset of autism symptoms.

"The vaccine hypotheses are not currently supported by the evidence," wrote the panel, which consisted of physicians, neuroscientists, epidemiologists, statisticians and a nurse.

In a telephone news briefing, the chairman of the committee, Marie C. McCormick of the Harvard School of Public Health, said her advice to parents is that children "should be getting their vaccines" because the life-threatening infections they protect against "are only a plane ride away."

After decades in which vaccines were generally considered certified miracles of medicine, the preparations and their safety have been openly challenged in recent years as the number of routine childhood immunizations has risen, along with the prevalence of several behavioral disorders.

The debate has been acrimonious. Some vaccine opponents have accused the government of covering up damaging information, while some public health officials are exasperated by what they view as the equal weight being given to small, poorly designed studies supporting the vaccine-autism connection and large, well-designed ones refuting it.

In Britain, public doubts about the MMR vaccine pushed the measles immunization rate from 92 percent in 1996 to 81 percent in 2003, and led to a tripling of measles cases. In the United States, MMR immunization has held steady at about 92 percent from 1998 through 2002.

The Institute of Medicine panel said five observational studies "consistently provided evidence of no association" between thimerosal and autism in Sweden, Denmark, the United States and Britain. A similar number of studies that do suggest a link are small, uninterpretable, unpublished or poorly designed, it said.

Fourteen studies, including nine controlled ones, found no association between the MMR vaccine and autism. Three that found a connection are poorly designed or offer very indirect evidence that could be explained in other ways, the authors said.

Much of the support for the idea that vaccines may cause autism arises from the fact that the neurological illness usually becomes evident after age 3 -- sometimes with dramatic social regression and loss of language -- at a time when children are getting multiple immunizations.

In the case of thimerosal, the underlying biological mechanism was thought to be that some children are unusually sensitive to mercury, a known neurotoxin, even though the amount in shots is minuscule. (Since 2000, thimerosal has been taken out of all routinely given childhood vaccines.)

With MMR, the theory is that the vaccine -- which contains a live, very weakened strain of the measles virus -- promotes the production of neurotoxins, or causes damage to the immune system, which in turn leads to brain damage. An English researcher, Andrew J. Wakefield, found fragments of the measles virus in the intestines of a small number of autistic children with severe digestive problems. Other scientists are only now trying to confirm this observation.

In the telephone briefing, McCormick and Steven Goodman, a Johns Hopkins physician and biostatistician who also served on the panel, did not rule out the possibility that some autistic children may have disorders of immunity or of digestion that explain the findings.

They noted that autism is a neurological disorder, and that the human gut is now known to have its own, largely independent nervous system. Both the brain and the gut might be damaged by the developmental catastrophe that appears to occur before birth, or just after it, and that leads to autism.

One of the nation's leading vaccine skeptics, Rep. David Joseph Weldon (R-Fla.), who is a physician, criticized the report as "premature, perhaps perilously reliant on epidemiology, based on preliminary incomplete information."

Rick Rollens, a former secretary of the California Senate who became an advocate for autism research when his son, now 13, developed the disease, said he thinks "this report represents the will of the powerful public health community, CDC and vaccine manufacturers." He predicted it will not put the issue to rest.

The Institute of Medicine committee has produced eight studies on vaccine safety at the request of the National Institutes of Health and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. This is the last one, and the committee will now disband.

Jharman - very good article.

But - as you've probably noticed by the "debates" this forum has seen *sigh* there is no "proof" good enough for some short of angels on high coming down with trumpets blazing the news.  That's just the way they are.

I always knew that it didn't cause it.  They've been using mercury-based vaccines for a long time - and autism climbed.  They stopped in europe first - they kept climbing.  They stopped here - and here they keep climbing.  That's just common sense that there's other things going on.

It is still one of the "flavors of the month" for anti-med groups.  It has nothing to do with us - yet they keep mentioning it as if it is supposed to help us understand their odd ways.  More like put up a smoke screen - but oh well.

I'm an average reader myself.  I read a little at a time and then read again and find that helps to get to understand it, together with searches on parts that confuse.  Page 27 of the pdf file may help start you off on the connections?

This may help too.  Another pdf file.  Extract from page 7 which shows good reason why we should at least keep open minds.

http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/members/2005/7712/7712.pdf

'Recent publications have proposed a direct link between the use of thimerosal-containing vaccines and the significant rise in the number of children being diagnosed with autism, a serious and prevalent developmental disorder (for review, see IOM 2001). Results from an initial IOM review of the safety of vaccines found that there was not sufficient evidence to render an opinion on the relationship between ethylmercury exposure and developmental disorders in children (IOM 2001).

The IOM review did, however, note the possibility of such a relationship and recommended further studies be conducted. A recently published second review (IOM 2004) appears to have abandoned the earlier recommendation as well as backed away from the American Academy of Pediatrics goal.

This approach is difficult to understand, given our current limited knowledge of the toxicokinetics and developmental neurotoxicity of thimerosal, a compound that has been (and will continue to be) injected in millions of newborns and infants.

The key findings of the present study are the differences in the disposition kinetics and demethylation rates of thimerosal and MeHg. Consequently, MeHg is not a suitable reference for risk assessment from exposure to thimerosal-derived Hg. 

Knowledge of the biotransformation of thimerosal, the chemical identity of the Hg-containing species in the blood and brain, and the neurotoxic potential of intact thimerosal and its various biotransformation products, including ethylmercury, is urgently needed to afford a meaningful interpretation of the potential developmental effects of immunization with thimerosal-containing
vaccines in newborns and infants. This information is critical if we are to respond to public concerns regarding the safety of childhood immunizations.'

Weighing against measles. Somewhere in an article above mentions Measles in the UK increasing as MMR vaccinations go down.  On a search, this appears to be correct, although interestingly enough, despite the rise in measles the last death from measles in the UK is reported as occuring in 1992, which seems to be long before the drop in MMR vaccinations.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/theissues/article/0,6512,646453,00 .html

What a coincidence, while doing a search todays media came up. 

Epoch Times

Autism: An Epidemic Is Finally Acknowledged Epoch Times, NY - 13 hours ago ... In April, New York Times contributing writer, David Kirby, came out with the book "Evidence of Harm" that tied the increase in vaccines to the rise in autism. ...

The Age of Autism: Gold standards United Press International - 7 hours ago ... While medical groups and federal health authorities discount any link, these researchers and parents say a huge rise in autism diagnoses beginning in the 1990s ...

ASPARTAME FEEDBACK DIALOGUE Free Market News Network, FL - 23 hours ago ... vaccine outweigh my right to raise an autism-free child - given the increasing evidence that thimerosal is at least one culprit in the rise of autism worldwide ...

The Age of Autism: Missing in Mississippi Science Daily (press release) - 19 Dec 2005 ... The Age of Autism: The story so far (December 17, 2005) -- Part 1 of 3. In February, we began this ongoing series of articles on the roots and rise of autism. ...

Feeling her way Aurora Beacon News, IL - 18 Dec 2005 ... To him, it's no coincidence that the rise in autism started when more vaccines were being administered to children. "The evidence is overwhelming," he said. ...

The Age of Autism: Gold salts pass a test Monsters and Critics.com, UK - 23 Dec 2005 ... with significant benefit. This Ongoing Series on the Roots and Rise of Autism Welcomes Reader Comment. E-Mail: Dolmsted@upi.Com.

A chance to be a cheerleader Aurora Beacon News, IL - 16 hours ago ... nine kids with challenges including Down syndrome, cerebral palsy, autism and arthritis. ... the sidelines watching his 11-year-old daughter, Ashley, rise into the ...

The Age of Autism: The story so far Science Daily (press release) - 17 Dec 2005 By DAN OLMSTED. Part 1 of 3. In February, we began this ongoing series of articles on the roots and rise of autism. Now, at the end ...

The Age of Autism: The story so far Monsters and Critics.com, UK - 18 Dec 2005 WASHINGTON, DC, United States (UPI) -- Part 1 of 3. In February, we began this ongoing series of articles on the roots and rise of autism. ...

Mercury content of vaccines becoming an issue in many states Newstarget.com, Taiwan - 20 Dec 2005 Evelyn Pringle of OpEdNews.com discusses the growing number of studies and doctors that indicate there is a link between the rise of autism and the use of ...

[QUOTE=IMac]Aw, you had to go and do that. Here you had the perfect opportunity to inform people and you haven't even read the stuff yourself. You insult us. If I want to subscribe to the relevant sites and read medical journals, I can do that myself. I don't want to take an online course on a discussion forum; mind you, an online course would probably be easier to understand. Cutting and pasting articles is supposed to be a sign of a troll. Grow up. [/QUOTE]

My suggestion is this book on how to "cure autism".  It tells you how to crawl around on the floor and kill your knees.

oh, wait, was that too harsh?  lmfao  I tell you what, people like the ones that are pushy with their opinions are not just insulting, they are rude!  Do these trolls think we are just stupid? 

I read it all.  As I said earlier "I read a little at a time and then read again" until I got to grips with it. 

Feel free though, when uninformed with nothing to offer but a closed mind and little aspiration towards exploration or analysis, to continue to regress back to infantile behaviour using insult ('troll' name calling) and derision, if you feel that is the way to discovery. 

Happy New Year.

I read it all.  As I said earlier "I read a little at a time and then read again" until I got to grips with it.  Great, so tell us about it and support your ideas with reliable information.

Feel free though, when uninformed Sigh. Is there a format these guys use? with nothing to offer but a closed mind and little aspiration towards exploration or analysis, The last time i looked, this was an ADHD forum. I have ADHD. ADDers are genetically wired to be enquiring minds. We like learning so much we hyperfocus on subjects at the expense of the rest of our day to day lives and our families. to continue to regress back to infantile behaviour using insult ('troll' name calling) and derision, if you feel that is the way to discovery. You earned it; if it walks like a troll and talks like a troll . . .

Happy New Year.

 [/QUOTE]
To cure Autism, you do the exercises every other day.

I read it all.  As I said earlier "I read a little at a time and then read again" until I got to grips with it. 

Feel free though, when uninformed with nothing to offer but a closed mind and little aspiration towards exploration or analysis, to continue to regress back to infantile behaviour using insult ('troll' name calling) and derision, if you feel that is the way to discovery. 

Happy New Year.

[/QUOTE]

do you really think we are "uniformed with nothing to offer but a closed minded" and that we will "continue to regress back to infantile behaviour..."?

You have managed to piss off and/or insult most of the parents that have happened upon your thread.  With that said, is it really us?  Or is it really just you?  hhhhmmmmm  I wonder, i am too uniformed and closed minded to decide.  

you mean ar is autismrise.  rotflmbo how come you think i insult either ar or the site by that name.   

to autismrise  

my da used the sun program and that made a big diference.  they swear it was mmr as he changed so fast but sad as iffen we ever know it still wont change him.

just so every one knows, do me one favor....

say you are not me.  a small post stating you are not the same person as ogram.  I would be indebted to you, if you will do it.

[QUOTE=margo]its good and obvius that i am not u.  i hope the cats here can play with no mouse as ive got a date to go to. new years eve. CIAO or should it be MIAOW rotfl.[/QUOTE]

well, thank you.  i guess i will change my signatrue, since you won't.  you are more than welcome to visit my board, it would be a delight to have you there.  but, i doubt you will.   hhmm  too bad.  have fun on your date.  i don't have one.  lol 

i didn't stick my tung out.    this is a pinch.  if i was going to stick my tongue out, I'd do this............

  there is a BIG difference

[QUOTE=margo]dates not that good i ate it with rest of pack plus dont change your sig to mine too confused and id only take ur chicken lol.  i could visit only you probly didnt mean it coz you stuck ur tongue out  when u said it rotfl.  bin gettin ready and going now.  ty for fun wish.  wish u champane at midnite.[/QUOTE]

where did you go to school?????

I say they went  to school with brent,,,what ya  think

I say they went  to school with brent,,,what ya  think

[/QUOTE]

 hahahaha  that might be true.  and what's with all the acronyms?  i don't know what most of them are.  Please, fill me in, if any one knows.

i went to Helsingin kansainvalinin koulu that is a school in Suomi u call finland rotfl.  

onnellista uutta vuotta

i went to Helsingin kansainvalinin koulu that is a school in Suomi u call finland rotfl.  

onnellista uutta vuotta

[/QUOTE]

even it i believed that, it would explain your poor writing skills "rotfl"

your skill would be more bad if you went on Suomen board lol i laugh as it is funny here.  i am 18 and no child.  my cosin has autism and my aunt looks here.  

so, why copy cat me?  there are a great deal more desirable people here than me, that's for sure. 

btw - 18 is when you "think" you know it all.  you had better start writing it all down, so when you grow up and know nothing, you can just read what you wrote. (sorry, but my dear, you are a child, not even wet behind the ears). 

Oh, we have a kid, wet behind the ears, who thinks he is clever.  Ain't that just the cutest thing!  ROTFWASFI 

I reported the little gnat.

Man that's SO sad! We go from Troll to Droll.  Sigh.

Some days here I feel like I've hit the bizarro universe.  Wierd.

margo - you use ogram's proper name and then use a signature that is mocking hers (mean as heck keeps you blind?).  Try again on not copying.  And do think about what you do before you do it - it's a sign of maturity.

i went to Helsingin kansainvalinin koulu that is a school in Suomi u call finland rotfl.  

onnellista uutta vuotta

[/QUOTE]

Noeliniz Ve Yeni Yiliniz Kutlu Olsun

Tranlation: Merry Christmas to you too, ya little pip-squeek. (oops, I added that last part) 

Noeliniz Ve Yeni Yiliniz Kutlu Olsun is not finland.  onnellista uutta vuotta is not cristmas it is happy new yearl

my da knows my dc was autisti after mmr.  she read today here again.  da says it is sad that unfreindly talk comes to writer who said mmr may be course of autism that it is hurt parent of autisti and says they do not beleive parents.  i make no fun of my cosin i love him.

Noeliniz Ve Yeni Yiliniz Kutlu Olsun is not finland.  onnellista uutta vuotta is not cristmas it is happy new yearl

my da knows my dc was autisti after mmr.  she read today here again.  da says it is sad that unfreindly talk comes to writer who said mmr may be course of autism that it is hurt parent of autisti and says they do not beleive parents.  i make no fun of my cosin i love him.

[/QUOTE]

 ok you all, it's time to get your rubber boots on!

Am i the only one that has a hard time reading the posts from this little kid, he makes NO since and that makes it hard to read.  I guess I'm just too interesting. 

t is hard to read u also. 

(he makes NO since and that makes it hard to read)

HE is boy yes?  i am girl.  margo is girl name in my country.

u try see how hard for u to read or write in finland forum lol.

http://adhd-aikuiset.org/bbs/

do i have every one's permission to use all of my pics on this guy/girl?  I will not do it if it is going to offend you all.  Please, OH, PLEASE let me!  I promise it will be a good laugh.

after all, this little freak is mocking me!!!  i think retaliation would be rather fun.

u try see how hard for u to read or write in finland forum lol.

http://adhd-aikuiset.org/bbs/

[/QUOTE]

see this is where the maturity thing falls into play.  Adults don't go to sites that are in a foreign language and copy cat people.  I think you are wayyyyyy out of your league messing with me.

Noeliniz Ve Yeni Yiliniz Kutlu Olsun is not finland.  onnellista uutta vuotta is not cristmas it is happy new yearl

[/QUOTE]

Just testing you. I stand corrected. You are of course correct!

How is it I can be irritated with some people (Troll assumption) and then grow to like them in a heart beat. I'm strange that way.

ty auntie.  now i say good bye. that is näkemiin.  i go now.   a happy new year.

Margo

onnellista uutta vuotta !

[QUOTE=IMac]Where do you find these gems? [/QUOTE]

They find me!  I am the luckiest girl in the world.  But, i am sure, you will have a follower too.  Just look for some one with a real weak personality that is under the age of 21, that likes to play games on the wrong board.  and one that likes to read.

[QUOTE=IMac]Where do you find these gems? [/QUOTE]

did you notice some thing strange about this impostor who calls herself Margo?  I sure did.  if she is that bad with English, then how the heck can she get such a good signature?  Just an obvious flaw in the bogus story. 

hei ogram. ty my da will be happy that she write good english. she marry amercia man, live in amercia half  year and come back to Oulu.  she speak good english. cristmas gone I go home helsinki for music hard work too much to work.  2 kaupunki, univeristi? Sibelius academi day, Helsinki univeristi night.  i love live with da for cristmas. home no english help now roftl and i wish u may know wat I say. stop work now it dawn soon. to more tired.

hei chjones.  ty for good nice talk tho i do not no all tho read well more than write.   i understand u go to Sverige very nice.   Suomi also cold winter tho u love to see. Kyllä i understand you say on autismi.  dc good talk very kind boy also. boy 21. 

i go to bed now.  to hard work many to do.  english more bad very more tired lol.

Hyvää yötä and cu other day when no very hard work.    Margo

ogram i think  u very sad and pelästynyt (to fear?) and u make pakkomielle. sorry not no how to say. this will make u kipeä.  hurt, sick? Rauhanaika. calm?

no sleep i work to hard wish 2 sleep and i stay waken.

[QUOTE=IMac]Scotland? [/QUOTE]

maybe.  or was it a bridge from California to Hawaii?

ogram u may love or no love,  u hear Sibelius and may u feel rauhanaika. calm?

u not love music ok.

http://virtual.finland.fi/stream/finlandia.wav.ram

i'm done and deleting so you will try to make nice.  i am not going to play your game any more.  grow up.

Kyllä IMac. u not sad. u  not so nice. ogram nice but has fear make not nice. 

 i go to bed my time.

look 4 rekkamiehen pastilli. that is u.

bla bla bla

ogram ur english i can not work. please talk like to forin person. small english?  to many big word i do no no.

calm to u.  margo

you are acting like a troll.  is that simple enough?  with your signature in good English and has English slang, you are a lier too.

[QUOTE=margo]i read ur talk. i sad u may be like imac ?[/QUOTE]

yep.  we both can speak and write English and don't pretend to be some one else.

this is too funny for words.

imac, are we having fun yet?

fear=scared  -  fear of what?

like child=childish  -  you are copying me my 18 year old friend. 

U are also very silly u can not read ur english.  i explan. You to stupid to see.

Hei Hei. You lose freind u to fear all. u are like imac.

maybe i report u, but u a child so i will not report. u are either old woman or baby.

this is just pointless.  I'm retracting every thing I've said.  you should do the same.  true colors are really obvious, aren't they.

maybe i report u, but u a child so i will not report. u are either old woman or baby.

[/QUOTE]

Report me for what?  i have not done any thing to you.  but if you must, you must.  make sure you let them know it's ogram and not margo.  they might get confused.    but that was your point all along.

btw-i wish i was a child - no bills, no cooking, no responsibilities.  What a life.  i wouldn't be here if i was a child.  Old lady, i feel like it some times, but I'm working on it.  just remember, write it all down, so when you realize you don't know it all you will be able to look back and remember what you knew and lost as life passes by.  i sure wish i did. 

Hei old lady on internet  being young lady.     älykääpiö

LOOK UP.  good nite. 

chjones u only nice americn and auntie. ty.  people write, americn fear. ty for being kind.  Tho I think u wrong that nice people here.

hug? to u. 

chjones u only nice American and auntie. ty.  people write, American fear. ty for being kind.  Tho I think u wrong that nice people here.

hug? to u. 

[/QUOTE]

finally some think i agree with.  chjones and auntie are both very nice people.  you don't care for America?  that's a great right!!!  I support the freedom of speech.  you are entitled to your opinions and entitled to express them.  Try to be more original and I will try to be nice.  fare is fare.

edited to spell check, i have a horrible spelling habit.

silly old woman. u make PREZ go. u love prez yes? U look r prez i see.  U and ur friend s make nice people go.  Prez go.

silly woman.

u have no date 2005/2006. no suprise.  i can be like u. SILLY WOMAN.

maybe I get you wrong way round and imac is good you bad?

as a matter of fact.  i enjoy prez.  if you did your research, i have asked where he/she is.  I like the threads he/she start. 

as for the date thing????  please fill me in.  i don't know what you are talking about.  yep I'm a silly old woman.  you nailed it.  but, why do you call me names?  or is that some thing you do to try and out whit old people?

you don't have to agree with some one to like or dislike them.  when you get older you will understand that.  that is called maturity (which is one of the things i lack at times. hahaha)

why do you want to argue any way?  are you getting a HI out of it?  conversation is nice, debate is nice, but arguing is just not worth the effort, don't you think?

i see you ask for imac. he is a good man. he does not like you make huurt  every body. u make him go. i tink maybe now he nos u ur stupid he help other poeople.

IMac Senior Member Joined: 02 July 2005 Posts: 162

Posted: 03 January 2006 at 10:27pm | IP Logged Leni, Leni, Leni, you need to do some homework, girl. "Aspirin" is a man-made version of a chemical found in nature. Both are "Asprin. Kids die from "natural" remedies, too. You are Canadian. Do you remember several young babies dying in Eastern Canada because their parents were using raw honey in their forumula? Who knew? It took the deaths to lead to an inversitgation and a warning came out not to give raw honey to infants under a certain age. Honey is a very natural product. I was told by well-meaning European ladies to give my colicky infant an herbal tea. Good thing I didn't because it wasn't recommended for babies

IMac i am sory. Maybe u followed ? spell?  the silly old woman who pretend she young lady?

Internet iwird.

what does that have to do with me?  i am really having a problem following your connection with me on that on.  I'm not leni.  but, i'll check it out.  Now I do know i've been rude and ugly before, but who is leni and what does it have to do with me?  if you want to see me being ugly, do a search on "singledad1boy".  i think you will find it rather funny and mean.  but if you read it all, you will see that he is public about sleeping with small children and sees no problem with it.  i find that rather alarming.  And he is a woman hater.

as for the link you gave me a few hours ago, it didn't work for me.  can you resend it? 

hw oll ur ? 70? 80? or wot?

How do we know?

Whatever  age.. however old, WE KNOW.

Margo,

You need to change your name or at the very least your signature.  Most of us don't use our real names anyway. That would be the polite thing to do.

Any "meaness" from Ogram you started by using her given name and you started it by using a version of her signature.  After-all it seems you have been lurking long enough that you read threads on Prez so you absoulutely knew you would tick Ogram off.

Ogram is a old member and many of us know Ogram far better than you can by reading this board.  We care about Ogram very much! 

I still like you, but I don't like your tactics. I'd love it if this forum had folks from all parts of the world so I hope you will back down and change your signature and your attitude and we will be more than happen to welcome you and hopefully become great friends. 

you mean ar is autismrise.  rotflmbo how come you think i insult either ar or the site by that name.   

[/QUOTE]

you spoke fine english here

[QUOTE=margo]the topic wasnt brought up by Autism.  how come you dont have a mass hissy fit about page 1.[/QUOTE]

perfectly good english here

[QUOTE=margo]hiss away rotflmbo.[/QUOTE]

perfectly good english here too

[QUOTE=margo]the signature as you have the same name and we are very different.  eyes can watch and think what they want to see as i am not parnoid rotfl.  [/QUOTE]

perfectly good english here also.

what are you trying to prove?

orgam u need a change of med like anone can se here. ur med doesnt work or u would  not follw me round. LOL.

auntie,u are morphing. please dont' keep chaniging  i right now ok? this really is showing that amreca and drugs are WEIRD. God bless t ( and protect) the rest of the world.

LOOK WHO'S LAUGHING NOW.  NO ONE

Ogram SHUT UP? Please as u show no brain. .  You do  show everyone that the way you jibber on bla bla (fron other post). u ar NOT funny at all. BUT HE HE HE HE at your stoopid picture website. RIGHT CLIK ON HER AVAR pick PROERTIES and you no if see who is how.

. OH NO she is using http://www.photobucket.com/albums/a329/HeatherBarnes/th_P101 0055.jpg

ORGAM your name is HEATHER or do u steal bandwidth? Or do u steal bandwidth ?  Let me now so I can "report you" stupid old lady.

ur the only lafing person. nobody ese. you are THE AMRICAN DRUGGIE. yes? perfik example. WELL DONE OGRAM. THE AMERICN DRUGGIE OF 2006.  Nice work for adhdnews.com. Stupid woman.  U., I can be as nasty as u,  u will say "I EXCUSE I ADHD"" yuk. If you get children when you grow up tio care fo them? If you have kids they're fu**ed u are here u should be look after them not playing here.

lmfao.  finally the truth.  you don't know me at all.  i got the avatar from chatters.  we use photo bucket for our pics and smilies on my own message board.  my name is not heather.  here, this is my personal pic sites, then you can see who i really am.  it's no secret.  but you did just blow your own cover.  you speak great English.  good for you

http://www.mrichter4.photosite.com/

http://mrichter1.photosite.com/

now you will have a clear picture of who i am. and where i come from.  you are an old member we all know that.  i don't really care who you are.  you need to get a better hobby.  I've actually tried to be nice.  so leave me alone from now on. 

SICK OGRAM AMERICA.

Great ogram. we see us difrent. u show us america, no where else same as you.

get a life?

[QUOTE=margo]U are MISS AMERICA drug up chilxdren so u  they shut up and u can play nasty on internet YES OGRAM?[/QUOTE]

reported again

so, does every one that uses meds in your book a bad parent?

RE PORT BABY OLD LADY. UR like a spoil child. I WILL BEHAVE LIKE A STUPID IDIOT AND B NASTY AND REPORT U LIKE CHILD IN KINDERGARTEN.

u R PATHETIQUE.

to think I like you and would protct your stupidy imature yet elderly alzheimers posts.

AMERCAN JUNKIE "ADHD" ENGLISH SPEEKING IDOT. Rest of us hate you and you dont make us freind you treat the every stranger like yiou hate.  OGRAM. YOU SHOW THIS

REPORT REPORT REPORT

KINDARGARTEN CHILD!!!!!!!!!

chjones u only nice American and auntie. ty.  people write, American fear. ty for being kind.  Tho I think u wrong that nice people here.

hug? to u. 

[/QUOTE]

finally some think i agree with.  chjones and auntie are both very nice people.  you don't care for America?  that's a great right!!!  I support the freedom of speech.  you are entitled to your opinions and entitled to express them.  Try to be more original and I will try to be nice.  fare is fare.

edited to spell check, i have a horrible spelling habit.

[/QUOTE]

u have a horrible nasty personaity, no matter about spelling habit. ur spelling is just not educate. your nasty personality is a big problim as it is YOU. YOU. YOU.

chjones is nice people. hard to think she is american.

may be one in a million american is nice person? not u tho Ogre ogram.  try to get over ur psyco problem in future and be nice to peope?

ok.  i even changed my signature to be more "friendly".  who is every body?  I'd like to know.  practice what you preach. i conceded to you.  that means you won.  i thought that would make you happy.  it just enraged you.  why is that?  you have only posted ugly and hostile things to me.  you don't know any thing about me.  so, sorry you dislike or even hate me.  I have tried to make nice and part ways.  why do you dislike me so much?  is it that i am a person that doesn't agree with you, or is it just that you have a personality conflict.  either way, that's ok.  in life we don't always meet people we like.  that's normal.  you assume I'm on meds.  did you ever ask me?  no, you didn't.  I'm not on adhd meds.  I'm on other meds, though.  but not mood altering or stims.  neither is my son.  so, you are completely misinformed on me and what i stand for.  please respect that i am different from you.  i respect that you choose no meds.  what ever works for you.  as for the name calling, it is totally uncalled for.  if you have any self respect left, use is on deleting your posts so you don't look bad, too.

this is not meant to be ugly or disrespectful.  i am now on a more serious note.  hitting below the belt is totally uncalled for.  you don't have to twist the tongue to get your point across that you don't like me.  that's obvious.  and it's ok.

ok.  i even changed my signature to be more "friendly".  who is every body?  I'd like to know.  practice what you preach. i conceded to you.  that means you won.  i thought that would make you happy.  it just enraged you.  why is that?  you have only posted ugly and hostile things to me.  you don't know any thing about me.  so, sorry you dislike or even hate me.  I have tried to make nice and part ways.  why do you dislike me so much?  is it that i am a person that doesn't agree with you, or is it just that you have a personality conflict.  either way, that's ok.  in life we don't always meet people we like.  that's normal.  you assume I'm on meds.  did you ever ask me?  no, you didn't.  I'm not on adhd meds.  I'm on other meds, though.  but not mood altering or stims.  neither is my son.  so, you are completely misinformed on me and what i stand for.  please respect that i am different from you.  i respect that you choose no meds.  what ever works for you.  as for the name calling, it is totally uncalled for.  if you have any self respect left, use is on deleting your posts so you don't look bad, too.

this is not meant to be ugly or disrespectful.  i am now on a more serious note.  hitting below the belt is totally uncalled for.  you don't have to twist the tongue to get your point across that you don't like me.  that's obvious.  and it's ok.

ok.  i even changed my signature to be more "friendly".  who is every body?  I'd like to know.  practice what you preach. i conceded to you.  that means you won.  i thought that would make you happy.  it just enraged you.  why is that?  you have only posted ugly and hostile things to me.  you don't know any thing about me.  so, sorry you dislike or even hate me.  I have tried to make nice and part ways.  why do you dislike me so much?  is it that i am a person that doesn't agree with you, or is it just that you have a personality conflict.  either way, that's ok.  in life we don't always meet people we like.  that's normal.  you assume I'm on meds.  did you ever ask me?  no, you didn't.  I'm not on adhd meds.  I'm on other meds, though.  but not mood altering or stims.  neither is my son.  so, you are completely misinformed on me and what i stand for.  please respect that i am different from you.  i respect that you choose no meds.  what ever works for you.  as for the name calling, it is totally uncalled for.  if you have any self respect left, use is on deleting your posts so you don't look bad, too.

this is not meant to be ugly or disrespectful.  i am now on a more serious note.  hitting below the belt is totally uncalled for.  you don't have to twist the tongue to get your point across that you don't like me.  that's obvious.  and it's ok.

[/QUOTE]

please do not be stup[d. you came on this thread to attack.

we can all see that.

as to you, DO YOU HAVE CHILD??? if so do you drug them to keep quiet so you  an be nasty nasty nasty here??

becos you orgram i think so. what normal human being would spend time attacking ever people ??

you are not normal. but you have child? you say they are adhd? that is why you here? are they normal with asshold mom who drug them so they quiet and she spend hours on internet play  bla bla bla bimdo brain idiiot or nasty troll attack on others. WHAT  DO YOU CHILDS DO WHILE YOU PLAY HERE?

Is adhd americs exuse to drug childs?

ok.  i even changed my signature to be more "friendly".  who is every body?  I'd like to know.  practice what you preach. i conceded to you.  that means you won.  i thought that would make you happy.  it just enraged you.  why is that?  you have only posted ugly and hostile things to me.  you don't know any thing about me.  so, sorry you dislike or even hate me.  I have tried to make nice and part ways.  why do you dislike me so much?  is it that i am a person that doesn't agree with you, or is it just that you have a personality conflict.  either way, that's ok.  in life we don't always meet people we like.  that's normal.  you assume I'm on meds.  did you ever ask me?  no, you didn't.  I'm not on adhd meds.  I'm on other meds, though.  but not mood altering or stims.  neither is my son.  so, you are completely misinformed on me and what i stand for.  please respect that i am different from you.  i respect that you choose no meds.  what ever works for you.  as for the name calling, it is totally uncalled for.  if you have any self respect left, use is on deleting your posts so you don't look bad, too.

this is not meant to be ugly or disrespectful.  i am now on a more serious note.  hitting below the belt is totally uncalled for.  you don't have to twist the tongue to get your point across that you don't like me.  that's obvious.  and it's ok.

[/QUOTE]

please do not be stup[d. you came on this thread to attack.

we can all see that.

as to you, DO YOU HAVE CHILD??? if so do you drug them to keep quiet so you  an be nasty nasty nasty here??

becos you orgram i think so. what normal human being would spend time attacking ever people ??

you are not normal. but you have child? you say they are adhd? that is why you here? are they normal with asshold mom who drug them so they quiet and she spend hours on internet play  bla bla bla bimdo brain idiiot or nasty troll attack on others. WHAT  DO YOU CHILDS DO WHILE YOU PLAY HERE?

Is adhd americs exuse to drug childs?

[/QUOTE]

reported again. 

you have a foul mouth.  you need to remember every one reads this stuff.  think about it.  what have i said, and what have you said?

[QUOTE=ogram]i see, it's that i'm american and pro meds?   i've tried to be nice, intrested in your reasoning and wanted to drop the entire thing.  i even went and deleted some of my posts that were distasteful.  I hope you went and saw my own site with the pics.[/QUOTE]

it was as boring as YOU. stupid pics.

HEY YOU SAY SAY YOU "TRIED TO BE NICE"?  When was that. Did you notice my dc has autism. no asshole you did not.  you made big ignore and took the world wide  HATED amircan junkie piss out of me.  you ask why i was here and you made a fight our anser. CHJONES WAS THE ONLY PERSON WHO SAW. YOu ogram asked me and USED THAT TO ATTACK. YOU USE MY AUTISM COUSIN ANSER TO ATTACk. you are SICK SICK SICK AMERICAN SICK.

Sorru chjones. like you. you are not ogram. i hurt inside and my asunt also. ogram cares for NOONE i hop it has not childrren.

hey asshole If your are a mom you are a mom from hell.

I have not report you. i will not be here for long i have much work.

If you have children i think THEY would feel sick at a mom "reporting" someone with autistic child. This site should ban you for child abuse while you play on this site.

SICKO.

hey asshole If your are a mom you are a mom from hell.

I have not report you. i will not be here for long i have much work.

If you have children i think THEY would feel sick at a mom "reporting" someone with autistic child. This site should ban you for child abuse while you play on this site.

SICKO.

[/QUOTE]

OMG  your English just got better!!!  Great then you can understand this "LEAVE ME OUT OF YOUR SICK AND TWISTED GAMES"  YOU HAVE NO BUSINESS TALKING TO ME LIKE THAT.  YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT ME.  DO YOU KISS YOUR MOTHER WITH THAT MOUTH?  YOU ARE JUST MAD THAT YOU LOOK BAD NOW.  IF YOU ARE HERE FOR AUTISM, THEN WHY ARE YOU ON HERE ATTACKING ME?  THIS IS THE ONLY THREAD YOU HAVE POSTED ON. 

REPORTED AGAIN.

HEY your childens immature baby child drug em to keep you on this board PISS TAKE OF A MOTHER  AMERICAN DFUGGIE CHILD ABUSER:

Äitisi nai poroja   GO TO HELL OGRAN IDIOT (yeah I have a freind helping tonite but... he hate AMERICAN DRJGGIES TOO. You must know you lot have 90% of the worlds drugs - is there something wrong like are American all crazy OR WOT?

OMG.  Margo, you know nothing about America or American's.  You turned into a little devil and I stuck up for you.  I will be adding to Ogram's reporting. You are unacceptable!  

American's Rock!

HEY your childens immature baby child drug em to keep you on this board PISS TAKE OF A MOTHER  AMERICAN DFUGGIE CHILD ABUSER:

Äitisi nai poroja   GO TO HELL OGRAN IDIOT (yeah I have a freind helping tonite but... he hate AMERICAN DRJGGIES TOO. You must know you lot have 90% of the worlds drugs - is there something wrong like are American all crazy OR WOT?

[/QUOTE]

reported again

its not your place to pass judgment, now is it? 

Sie sind faul gesagen unhörbar und ungebildet. Bitte verfluchen Sie an mir irgendein mehr nicht.

HEY you drug trial on your chlid yes? I TALK TO YOU  ARMICAN IDIOT BLA BLA BLA  THREAD yes? HAVE YOU A CHILD? or do YOU want to be the pretty child so you put your child on a drug to "SIT DOWN SHUT UP" very americn so YOU have as live and ur baby shuts up and suffers? Yes?  I think you old and prend ere, wridly old lady OR self centered imature mom?

Hey.,  u now ur exeriments are moms to?

So watch this.

BUT you are most self people I see. americns. self. YOU OGRAN will get ur stupid pathic attack back becasue ur not adhd, ur psycho opath are you not? U did not once say OK u have autsitic  cousin. i ansered your query and youy  ignore and are a real cruel person. a psychopath. asshole.

HEY you drug trial on your chlid yes? I TALK TO YOU  ARMICAN IDIOT BLA BLA BLA  THREAD yes? HAVE YOU A CHILD? or do YOU want to be the pretty child so you put your child on a drug to "SIT DOWN SHUT UP" very americn so YOU have as live and ur baby shuts up and suffers? Yes?  I think you old and prend ere, wridly old lady OR self centered imature mom?

Hey.,  u now ur exeriments are moms to?

So watch this.

BUT you are most self people I see. americns. self. YOU OGRAN will get ur stupid pathic attack back becasue ur not adhd, ur psycho opath are you not? U did not once say OK u have autsitic  cousin. i ansered your query and youy  ignore and are a real cruel person. a psychopath. asshole.

[/QUOTE]

watch what?  i don't see any thing.  I didn't see your question, you have been full of ugly words, so i admit i must have skipped over it. 

for my personal stats.  i will indulge you, since you will not go back and read any thing for yourself.  I am ADHD.  have been all of my life.  And my ds is too.  I had a very bad pregnancy, so I think the combo of me having it and the meds to stop premature labor made his adhd worse than mine.  he is not on stims.  he is on other meds.  he is a happy little chatter box.  I don't think children should be seen and not heard, i think they should play and chat {to a certain degree, we are working on manners}.  It is the middle of the night, he is asleep.  that is the only time i can get my quiet time.  You have a foul mouth and have been reported.  i owe you nothing, not even respect.  respect is earned not taken.  you have given your self a bad rep here.  and to think i invited you to my site because it is more of an open forum w/ less rules.  That was my mistake.  You need to let it go and learn to practice what you preach.  Name calling and cursing is not necessary.  You can call me a troll or mean, that is fine.  But the other words you choose to use are not acceptable, by any standards.

I'm bored.  Guess I'll go to bed now.

God Bless America

HEY you drug trial on your chlid yes? I TALK TO YOU  ARMICAN IDIOT BLA BLA BLA  THREAD yes? HAVE YOU A CHILD? or do YOU want to be the pretty child so you put your child on a drug to "SIT DOWN SHUT UP" very americn so YOU have as live and ur baby shuts up and suffers? Yes?  I think you old and prend ere, wridly old lady OR self centered imature mom?

Hey.,  u now ur exeriments are moms to?

So watch this.

BUT you are most self people I see. americns. self. YOU OGRAN will get ur stupid pathic attack back becasue ur not adhd, ur psycho opath are you not? U did not once say OK u have autsitic  cousin. i ansered your query and youy  ignore and are a real cruel person. a psychopath. asshole.

[/QUOTE]

 smile, the whole world is watching.  Pro Bush all the way home!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

WHY WOULD GOD BLESS AMEROCA?

He said suffer the little children to come unto me.

AMERICANS SAY -  who cares if they if they suffer, we drug them so WE ARE OK.

God will never bless AMERICA. YOU are known globally as a child abusing nation.  The world despises that and so I expect does God. 90% of drugs are prescibed to THE CHILDREN OF AMERICA.  Report me. Reporting you median from Finland along with others fighting you GLOBALLY.

GOOD NIGHT. God help and protect you babies.

Your BUSH sicko makes the world sick.

OGRAM do you DRUG YOUR KIDS so that you can "bla bla bla" for hours on this site.

chjones u only nice americn and auntie. ty. people write, americn fear. ty for being kind. Tho I think u wrong that nice people here.

hug? to u.

Margo,

You are so wrong about how we treat our children in America.  Kids in America get the BEST treatment our money can afford so they can prosper in life.  I find it very sad you feel this way. We aren't all for medication.  Most take every step to avoid it.

I have found most people hate Americans because they are jealose. It appears this is the case with you.  And to think I almost liked you.  Sad, sad, sad.

I am so disappointed in you.

HEY if there is any DECENT american on this site

see  what they put animals through BEFORE you do the same to your children?

 Vidios

http://ww.petatv.com/tvpopup/video.asp?video=covance&Pla yer=wm&speed=_med

http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/video.asp?video=covance_main&a mp;Player=wm&speed=_med

Good bye from Finland.

chjones lol you not from America? That is understand as America sees things from the what politics and the pharmaceutical infkluence make things.  Sorry I thought you were a 'different' american lol . :-)  So you are normal rest of world lol.

MEAN AS HECK JUST KEEPS YOU BLIND - Margo you are blind

YOUR SIGHT IMPROVES WHEN YOU USE YOUR MIND! - evidently, you lost yours.

You are a Troll.

Goodbye Troll. 

Auntie ROTFL

WHat is with you?

I same as many do not want to be here because to nasty.

I came to see autism thing.

I got attack by every person herel.

I feel sick here.

Nothing like this paranoa on Finnish board. Try there.

Paranoa, drugs. This AMERICAN thing.

dont be afear, I no come back. I same as rest of world. I DO NOT LIKE.

Margo,

You are so wrong about how we treat our children in America. Kids in America get the BEST treatment our money can afford so they can prosper in life. I find it very sad you feel this way. We aren't all for medication. Most take every step to avoid it.

I have found most people hate Americans because they are jealose. It appears this is the case with you. And to think I almost liked you. Sad, sad, sad.

I am so disappointed in you.

AUNTIE rememb? YOU FIRST  report little pipsqueak? here on this thread?

go back and look. I think you are all amercia mad. to many drugs mess your brains?  to much tv ads? mad anyway. you are also all cruel. you no ever say how your dc is. just try to fight. Fight ever one is why the world hates america.

good nite.

not chjones. she was good person. LOL not americano.

and ogram i did like u.  i try to be firend, but you stayed with hate liike all america. that is why war in iraq. frend gets hate. all of you give hate until you get hate back. hate black. hate anywhere. that is american and americal people. on here the same as across the world. america fear and hate all other people than american.

very very very sad..

and ogram i did like u. i try to be firend, but you stayed with hate liike all america. that is why war in iraq. frend gets hate. all of you give hate until you get hate back. hate black. hate anywhere. that is american and americal people. on here the same as across the world. america fear and hate all other people than american.

very very very sad..

1 thing auntie before i go. u stick for your  friend but a good person would stick for right.

only chjones said to me about cosin. she read what i say and only person who care.

you attack, and all others attack.  that is nasty.

1 thing auntie before i go. u stick for your friend but a good person would stick for right.

only chjones said to me about cosin. she read what i say and only person who care.

you attack, and all others attack. that is nasty.

chjones ty.  ty for Pekka too, I shall say some person think of him from england  he will be very happy to no. 

it is eating dinner time now 12.30 we are 2 hours past UK time i must go to sleep tp go to universtie late.

Kiitos (ty) to be here.  it was fear on own person never wish to be again.   maybe never cu again, u are good peorson, may see you in Suomi finland one day :)

Margo

I don't know exactly what prompted me to read this thread since I have no experience with autism........perhaps it was a question I was asked by a father I met yesterday at lunch........Anyway, I read the first four or five pages on this thread and then the last  five (maybe more).  I feel all but certain "margo's) first language is ENGLISH despite the attempt to come across in hilarious fashion as someone from Finland (too many slip ups).  I also think it's worth considering that this person is that guy named eiffi (or whatever his name was) aka: Prez.  Then again, it could be someone who has gotten involved in some debates here before with ogram recently (I'll let you use your imagination here).  Either way, this poster is playing a game.  The penguin avatar even screams that out.

I don't think I can keep up with this thread.  Nineteen pages in such a short time...........Wow!

[QUOTE=ogram] i might call the person a troll, but if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and talks like a duck, it is indeed, a duck.  [/QUOTE]

 Isn't THAT the truth!  I'll report this person, too, because calling someone names like that and questioning your ability to parent is just wrong.  I really don't know who this person is, but I do feel it's someone who is out to do nothing but hurt you.  Maybe that Bogus character.  Who knows.  Yes, I think you're right about Prez.  Come to think of it, he never said anything hateful that I can think of (eiffi either).  Guess I was tuning in to the sarcasm.  The things this this "Finnish" person has said to you, though, are absolutely uncalled for.  It lowers the quality of this message board.

[QUOTE=IMac]And not just about Ogram! I can't believe the filth about American people in general. Is this common on forums? [/QUOTE]

i think that's what it is all about.  i don't mind being put in my place.  At times, i need that to keep grounded.  I tried to reason with this troll, i was nice and even went out of my way to make "nice".  then after that the troll went into the rage, so i went and deleted any reasoning I did.  That just added fuel to the flames.  At first, I was offended, and still am, but not as offended as I am appalled.  This is a total lack of respect for me and any one else that is from America.  He's got an ager issue.  And as for the not speaking English, i don't believe that for one second.  he started  out with perfect English and then ended it with good English.  he/she is a troll.

[QUOTE=oldtimer]I think this is a ploy to decrease the population and Govt. control. [/QUOTE]

WHAT??????!!!!!!!!

[QUOTE=oldtimer]I think this is a ploy to decrease the population and Govt. control. [/QUOTE]

WHAT??????!!!!!!!!

[/QUOTE]

i agree, what??

[QUOTE=oldtimer]I think this is a ploy to decrease the population and Govt. control. [/QUOTE]

WHAT??????!!!!!!!!

[/QUOTE]

i agree, what??

[/QUOTE]

   I can only shake my head and laugh.

What I mean by Govt. control is us loosing our rights little by little. The Govt .wants less people in Se. They want mainstream teachers doing more. How can they if they are not educated on how to help SE kids. This would also mean they want more money. I guess this means higher taxes also. I always here not enough money for education in general. If this is so where is lottery money/ taxes going. This isn't the peoples problem that is the education systems problem. Another thing is quit trying to make everyone fit the same mold.  I say reform all of it . School should be child centered to meet the needs of the kids. Forget Test scores also. Look at Day to day work!Return to age appropriate activities.Let kids do things when they are ready!

I used to just pick a answer cause I didn't understand it anyhow. My tests!Meds made no difference in helping this there. I was on meds from 6-19.

Rn

 Another thing is quit trying to make everyone fit the same mold. [/QUOTE]

Well now......THAT is something I understand and agree with 100%.  In a perfect world, though...............you know?  Unfortunately, public education doesn't always work that way.  We've been blessed with a great public school which offers a lot of support (there's still that "think inside the box" attitude there, though.)  I'm sorry you haven't had a good experience.  You surely aren't alone in that.

I get what you are saying Brent and may even agree a bit on loosing our rights.

But if you let kids do things when they are ready, then we would have a bunch of  40 yrs old adults still playing Game Boy saying I'm not ready to learn to read yet!  An exaggeration but you get my point.  Kids have to be pushed to learn and sometimes very hard. You tell me what kids would rather do, play or study?

And I'm sorry you and your kids seem to be having such a hard time in their school. It sound like your school stinks.   Brent, have you ever considered moving to another state?  

I am serious when I say this.  If you would ever consider moving to Nebraska for your kids sake, I'd be happy to do what ever I could to help you.  The schools in LaVista (burb of Omaha) are excellent for kids with disabilities.  I had custody of my Grand Niece who was ADD and had so many other problems.  She was so far behind the other kids.  By the time she left me to go back with her Mother she was doing great.  They helped her without anyone else knowing she had ADD. To tell you how wonderful these teachers are, when I had a final meeting with her team (The principle, vice principle, all her teachers, & the councilor) I told them she would be going back to live with her Mother.  Everyone in the room had tears running down their face.  The principle could hardly speak.  They cared that much! (Of course I was having a tough time holding it together too)

If you want to know any more about Lavista, just PM me.

But if you let kids do things when they are ready, then we would have a bunch of  40 yrs old adults still playing Game Boy saying I'm not ready to learn to read yet!  An exaggeration but you get my point. 

[/QUOTE]

................Auntie, it's soooo funny you said that because my kids and I were just at the park with my aunt.  She homeschools and was telling me about a woman she knows who "unschools" her kids at home which is kind of letting kids "learn from life at their own pace."  I don't really get that.  Neither does my aunt.  She has a pretty strict school routine going and made some comment like, "If I just let my boys decide when to do what and learn the way they want to, they'd be playing video games all day."  LOL!!!!!  By the way, her oldest who was homeschooled straight through 12th grade just made the deans list at one of the top tech universities in the country.  Woo Hoo!

  Thats great about your Aunt's son making the deans list!  Woo Hoo is right!

And I'm not even sure I exaggerated when I said that about 40 yrs olds.  Think back to years ago when there was only one computer or one Game Boy. How many kids do you think complained that Dad was hogging the Game Boy. I know I remember friends with kids saying, Daaaddd, it's my turn!!!

My problem is I think kids should learn stuff til fully mastered all the way. Show me a principal that  thinks this way. Bn owns a buisness with his parents. No he will not move. What I meant is lets go back to age appropriate grade levels. Brains are not ready for abstract stuff necesarally so young.

Leigh: have you considered Alpha omega computer schooling. This is set up like a video Game. Some people careless about educations. Bn is one. Son also. He says all the time I am finished with school. This is coming from a 9 year old.I guess no one sees this as a big problem like me.

RN wrote this. 

Leigh: have you considered Alpha omega computer schooling. This is set up like a video Game. Some people careless about educations. Bn is one. Son also. He says all the time I am finished with school. This is coming from a 9 year old.I guess no one sees this as a big problem like me.

RN wrote this. 

[/QUOTE]

We have something similar here, but it's not something I'm considering right now.  My son is in small group.  He can't tolerate meds.  I'm very happy with the attention he's getting at school (4th grade), but we really are in an exceptional school district, and although it's a public school, the place is loaded down with money (it's a wealthy county, and that works to the school's advantage big time!).  You might want to consider that part of the problem you're having may have to do with what you just said about your child, that at nine years old he says he's done with school.  If his attitude is that intense at that age, there isn't a lot a school can do to help.  They can't turn away from all of the other students to spend time trying to change your son's feelings toward school in general.  If you and your child are that miserable, I'd seriously consider a change in schools, a move or homeschooling.  Good luck.

[QUOTE=oldtimer]It is probebly a pace sytem of schooling which allows kids to progress at their own pace. Ace is that way. You don't move on until ful mastery happens. The things are done over and over til you get it. [/QUOTE]

This is KIND OF the way small group works at my son's school.  I wish you had the same for your child.

[QUOTE=chatters]margo..I'm the  worm and  your  the   bird....bite  me......come on  take on me ..I'm ready for  ya  buddy.,......[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=oldtimer]You are blessed Leigh. Is your son in Se for all basics? I know if we do it this way our son will have a program more like that. This is the only way that I know of kids getting their ful needs met. [/QUOTE]

He was in general ed through third grade.  He had to be taken off meds due to severe side effects to stimulants.  Once off meds, the school (and I) could see he couldn't focus at all anymore and had to make some changes to his IEP.  He was placed in "small group" (no more than five kids to one teacher) for all classes except, of course, things like art, music, P.E., etc. If your son is suffering academically as much as you have said, then I wouldn't hesitate insisting he is on an IEP under OHI (Other Health Impaired) due to ADHD or learning disability.  A doctor will have to sign a form stating his diagnosis.  Under an IEP, you have the right to have your son put in ALL small group classes.  And if he's in just one now, you have the right to go in and have him moved to small group for the others.  This would be done under an adendum meeting.  Hope this helps.

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I think we've gone WAY off topic, guys. Sorry........Hey!  Anything to take focus off the Finnish Bozo.

auntie,u are morphing. please dont' keep chaniging  i right now ok? this really is showing that amreca and drugs are WEIRD. God bless t ( and protect) the rest of the world.

[/QUOTE]

Interesting that you cannot spell America, but you can spell and understand "morphing." 

ORGAM your name is HEATHER or do u steal bandwidth? Or do u steal bandwidth ?  Let me now so I can "report you" stupid old lady.

[/QUOTE]

Again, good spelling and syntax, for someone who supposedly does not understand English.

HEY your childens immature baby child drug em to keep you on this board PISS TAKE OF A MOTHER  AMERICAN DFUGGIE CHILD ABUSER:

s there something wrong like are American all crazy OR WOT?

[/QUOTE]

Ah, look!  You spelled American correctly.  And twice!  Hey, you even capitalized it.

HEY if there is any DECENT american on this site

see  what they put animals through BEFORE you do the same to your children?

 Vidios

http://ww.petatv.com/tvpopup/video.asp?video=covance&Pla yer=wm&speed=_med

http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/video.asp?video=covance_main&a mp;a mp;Player=wm&speed=_med

[/QUOTE]

Your syntax and spelling has suddenly improved, again. 

Margo,

I thenk you no frum fennelind.  i no be sur wer u r frum but no fennelind.  me be meen amerca, uh, amerkan, uh, American (finally!) who no trus nobudy, yes, but me no trus u.

Margo,

I thenk you no frum fennelind.  i no be sur wer u r frum but no fennelind.  me be meen amerca, uh, amerkan, uh, American (finally!) who no trus nobudy, yes, but me no trus u.

[/QUOTE]

.........I thenk this pursun speek amercan very well in reeeel life. yes?

Could be that "Bogus"  guy, you know.  I mean with the "bogus" foreign facade and all.

All a vaccine does is give your body a dead piece of the code a virus works from.  In most cases they don't even use the original virus - just a piece of rna that is either identical or close enough that the immune system is ready to attack anything that resembles it.

Some people have allergic reactions when the vaccine is introduced.  Either it overreacts to the "invader" setting off a search-and-destroy that attacks normal cells - or some part of the imulsifyer (chicken egg or horse serum) inadvertently causes a reaction that does the same.  Either way neither autism or ADHD have been shown to be caused by the vaccines.  Asthma is suspected - as is hyper-allergy reactions but not disorders like ours.

If your son actually DOES have ADHD it's most likely genetic.  Like most genetic disorders/diseases, it may have been a recessive one in you - or you have it so mildly that you have been able to function normally.  Either way it's believed to be genetic in origin.  I've not heard of a non-genetic cause for ADHD at this point.

Science claims asd is genetic put no proof it is. No gene ever found either. To know any of this for sure is a genetic test for that exact disorder. I just have my own logic why is  it then these babies before shots to parents seemed fine. The preservative is the thought cause in the shots. The more they have studied asd the more they find these people have a Gi tract problem. This would explain why some have some don't. The lady/boy I have  talked about has told me asd is actually brain damage that happens in the mom's stomach. This was in her son's case.

What about an allergic reaction to one of the ingredients (or multitude) from the vaccines? Just a theory. I'm just thinking, if my son reacts so badly with milk, what can mercury do to someone who's sensitive towards it? Something to think about anyhow. I'm not a believer of "there's no proof".

I couldn't believe this statement:

[QUOTE] A 14-person panel of experts urged more research on autism but said further pursuit of possible links between vaccines and the devastating neurological disorder is probably not worth the money and effort. [/QUOTE]

I just shake my head at that. What are they afraid to find?

lol  if the vaccines cause adhd or autism, I have a bridge in Colorado to sell you.  lol

LOL - ogram!  Well put!

Of COURSE innoculations don't cause autism! Never did.  The amount of mercury in them was miniscule - the coastal fisheries put more mercury in a kid's system  from one fish than a kid gets in a lifetime of shots.  And now there are hardly any with mercury - yet the autism keeps coming! Kind of shoots it out of the water!

They need scapegoats.  The antidepressant scares no longer work so they go down the list.. They must sit in meetings going "let's see - okay there's ADHD, schizophrenia and smoking cessation pills.  Then if that doesn't scare all the poor saps lets go to cold medications, antibiotics and aspirin!". LOL!! Booga Booga!!

Science claims asd is genetic put no proof it is. No gene ever found either. To know any of this for sure is a genetic test for that exact disorder. I just have my own logic why is  it then these babies before shots to parents seemed fine. The preservative is the thought cause in the shots. The more they have studied asd the more they find these people have a Gi tract problem. This would explain why some have some don't. The lady/boy I have  talked about has told me asd is actually brain damage that happens in the mom's stomach. This was in her son's case.

Booga Booga!!

[/QUOTE]

Booga Booga!!

[/QUOTE]

[/QUOTE]

   That struck me funny too especially coming from such a level head as GlenW.  By the way, have I ever told you GlenW how much I appreciate your knowledge and common sense???  Well, I do!

Auntie - from you that's very high praise! I only wish I could feel one hundred percent like I am living up to that.  Oh, this pedestal is WAY too high!

Seriously though I am glad that I can give some help, humor and comraderie here on the forum.  You all have given me the strength to make the serious changes that were both scary and necessary for growth.

And the knowledge? Well I would have chosen medicine if I had not been recruited for the computer field 20 years or so ago.  I had an affinity for it - although I admit I get too involved and would be destroyed when I had to deal with death and injury where nothing could be done.  So I'm glad I use the knowledge where I do as I really cannot see myself with a scalpel - or even a stethescope.  So here I am.

I do tend to get emotional - but have it under control (I think).  Although I question my wisdom sometimes - as now I have been seriously thinking about the possibility of giving my exgf another chance since she's been discovering herself as I am.  Just considering mind you - but I still must question the wisdom behind it and it is no easy task to trust again.   I shall not leap blindly friends so have no fear.

Again auntie - thanks!!

well --- hahahahaha surprise surprise i have to disagree again.  i have enormous faith in the common man not being as stupid as scientists et al consider him or her to be.

the interesting fact for me is that the first vaccine was created after milkmaids noticed (normal, uneducated peasant women) that if they had had cow pox they never got small pox.  of course NO scientist would ever consider listening to such a bunch of old wives tales nonsense!!!  until one did - one actually decided to come off his high horse and believe what people were seeing with their own eyes.  hence the vaccine was invented --- it wasn't that the milk maids could tell you WHY they didn't get small pox - but they could certainly tell you that if they had had cow pox they sure as sh*te didn't get small pox.

and i feel that if you have enough people from all different parts of the world saying that after their child had vaccinations that child DETERIORATED rapidly, rapidly in front of their very eyes - from being able to say words to becoming totally mute --- then that is exactly what happened.  WHY it happened, what it was in the body that reacted to it, why only certain - a tiny minority - of children reacted this way, who knows?  i'll leave that to the scientists and i am sure one day they will work it out --- and having worked it out will create a test that will be able to determine whether your child is likely to be one of the tiny 1/2 percent that will react badly to the vaccine or not.  hence restoring faith in the vaccination system for everyone and stopping the unnecessary onset of autism in those children who would otherwise have been perfectly normal.

not stopping autism per se - that exists and has always existed independent of vaccines. 

but stopping those whose autism was kicked off by the vaccine itself.  ya know the way i look at all those scientific studies is this:  you have how many haemophiliacs in this world???  1% not even?  so you line 100 people and you punch them all in the arm fairly lightly - and 99 walk away and one has the hugest bruise.

so you call in the doctor and say "i'm sure it was because he was punched in the arm" and the doctor goes "nonsense, look at those 99 others they were punched and they are fine - it is something completely different".  and of course on some levels he is right - because it is because he has haemophilia.  but it is also because he was punched on the arm.  and the combination is what caused the problem.  that rare, rare combination.  but it wasn't the haemophilia alone - no, the bruise came because he was punched.

thus with the vaccine.  that's just what i believe and really i cannot understand why or where this theory would have come from otherwise.  in the States perhaps yes, people are so litigious they are always looking for something to blame, someone to pay out - so there could be a probable cause.  but not everywhere else.  and this is common to many countries this theory - not just America.  i am not sure it even surfaced initially in America.

i have been here in England when our minister John Gummer said 'nonsense there is no such thing as a link between mad cow disease and BSE' - and on tv feeding his eight-year-old daughter a hamburger as proof.  and ooops just a few months later - backtrack........  (as it goes i in fact don't think there is a link but that's not the point here). 

scientists in the UK are entirely discredited nowadays - those who are honest  here, have been hounded out of their profession.  sacked without cause when they wouldn't toe the party line or if no reason can be found to sack them - they are deliberately kept from working on their research.  or rubbished unfairly --- it's shocking in this country, really shocking.  i can't say how it is in the States, Canada or Australia - i hope it is better.  but in the UK - it is scientist for hire - that's all.  if you have principles and desire for truth over expediency then forget it.  nobody will employ you - nobody will give you money for research projects - you are considered a loose cannon.  our scientific community is entirely within the control of the large pharmceutical companies and the govt.  those who go directly to the press with their findings --- find that they never work again.  simple like that.  even those with past Nobel prizes to their name and other eminent scientists (older obviously) rallying to their side such as one (whose name i now have totally forgotten but i will post it later). 

people KNOW what they see.  they might not understand it but they see it - and they say it as they see it.  just like ADD - you've got your bogus and fraud going nonsense it doesn't exist, there is no proof, it's just a bunch of people making sh*t up.  well, why would anyone do that?  hmmm?  why?

like why would they make up their child deteriorated dramatically before their eyes.  why?  why would they say they never got small pox if they did?  etc. etc.

just my point of view.  but then i have always been a people person.  i prefer to hear directly from people who have been through it - who have no agenda just have to live with the results and get on with it.

here's the guy i meant Dr Pusztai --- but there are loads more to mention including the guy who initially brought up the concern re. the MMR jab in the UK - i forget his name too - i don't know too much about him but in general there is a constant battle against any scientist in this country who is not entirely biddable or bribable and not allow them to research ---

A leading scientist discredited and forced into retirement after a row erupted over his research into genetically modified food today insisted he was right to say people were being used as "guinea pigs". Dr Arpad Pusztai, employed for 37 years by the Rowett Research Institute in Aberdeen, told MPs he believed his findings raised "new concerns".

Appearing before the Science and Technology Select Committee at the House of Commons, he was also critical of the expert committee advising the Government on GM food and the fellow scientists who carried out an audit of his research. Dr Pusztai's research involved feeding rats genetically modified and ordinary potatoes.

He said he was surprised to find that the immune systems and brains, livers, kidneys and other vital organs of the animals fed the GM potatoes were damaged. The potatoes had been modified with a lectin protein from snowdrop bulbs. Rats given ordinary potatoes or potatoes simply "spiked" with lectin were unharmed.

But a storm erupted over his findings. Dr Pusztai was accused of confusing the results and releasing data not yet in the public domain. He was suspended by his employers, forced into retirement, and vilified by his peers. Appearing before MPs today, Dr Pusztai was pressed on his claim, made on ITV's World In Action programme, that people were being used as guinea pigs by the food industry.

He said he stood by his comment, which was based on the fact that previously only one paper on the effects of feeding GM food to animals had been published. This work was led by a scientist from Monsanto, the biotechnology giant specialising in GM food, and found no ill effects. Asked for evidence to back up his claim, he said: "The evidence is there's been only one paper published. That's good enough evidence for me. "A new technology has been introduced and its based on evidence of a single paper."

Dr Pusztai admitted he had been naive in his dealings with the media. But he said he felt the truth needed to be told. "When it all comes together, then your results and concerns are becoming a bit stronger," the Hungarian scientist told MPs. "You feel frustrated. You have to do something about it."
Asked if he would do the same again, he replied: "yes".
A post-mortem examination of Dr Pusztai's work was carried out by an audit committee of four scientists set up by the Institute. They disagreed with his findings, and gave him three days to write a reply - later attacked by his peers as "unpublishable".
Tonight Dr Pusztai claimed the audit committee were not properly qualified to judge his work. He thought it a "strange business" that none of the scientists was a nutritionist. "I thought it was rather inappropriate to have people on it who had very little animal work experience," he added.
Dr Pusztai also criticised the Advisory Committee on Novel Food Processes, which advises the Government on GM foods. He accepted that the experts did a "difficult job" but said they did not have enough practical experience.
"I would certainly like to have more input by actual practising scientists rather than those who are perhaps doing more administrative science," he told the Committee.
Asked if he thought his work suggested new concerns over GM foods, he replied: "I think so". Asked if he had related these concerns to the advisory committee, he said: "No, because I have no way of getting to them."
Since the row, Dr Pusztai has recovered the accounts of his research and submitted it to independent analysis.

In written evidence to the select committee, published for the first time tonight, he said his original findings were broadly confirmed. Rats fed potatoes modified with a gene from the snowdrop, Galanthus nivalis, to produce the protein lectin, suffered significant adverse effects. "The existing data support our original suggestion that the consumption by rats of transgenic (genetically modified) potatoes expressing GNA (snowdrop lectin) has significant effects on organ development, body metabolism, and immune function that is fully in line with the significant compositional differences between transgenic and corresponding parent lines of potatoes," Dr Pusztai wrote.

He said this gene had already been incorporated into several crops, including rice, cabbages and oilseed rape. Potatoes modified with snowdrop lectin had been grown in field trials for several years in the UK.

Dr Pusztai launched a strong attack on the director of the Rowett Research Institute, Professor Philip James, who had him suspended.

i know psm that is what is so extraordinary about the possible 'vaccine-autism' children. 

i know a lovely lady here, Sudanese, who is absolutely adamant (i didn't meet her child before his jabs so i can't verify it with my own eyes or anything) her child was understanding everything, essentially was NOT autistic right up until after his jab and then he BECAME autistic ---- from being normal, he regressed, his learning went backward, he stopped speaking, stopped functioning normally and the doctors just say no, he was born autistic and she just DIDN'T notice it, but you noticed it right from the get go as i think would any mother and she knows he WASN'T.  she just knows it.  he wasn't autistic - the jab did something to him (or something else did but up until that age he was fine) that's her story anyway - but as i say i never met the child previously so don't have any first hand knowledge of it. 

There is no proof either way as yet.  For all the denials there is also a counter.

http://www.autismuk.com/index1sub1.htm

'..Let us summarise the other evidence. Standard pharmacology, CDR and CD prove MMR causes autism. Further strong proof of causation, not hitherto brought into play, is the extremely close temporal association between administration of vaccine and recorded adverse reactions. The case histories of the children are also proof. The testimonies of the parents backed by video, photographs and medical records. There is also evidence of vaccine persisting in children who have suffered adverse reactions, when that is only previously known to occur in pathological circumstances..'

When the truth is out, the debate will come to an end.

Duped by governments? A lot of controversy.

http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/eletters/329/7467/642#75225

'..We are immediately told of the causal relationship when mass vaccination programs preceed so-called decreases in "preventative" disease epidemics.

How then does this reasoning not hold true of mass vaccination programs immediately preceeding spikes in autism rates. This is then confirmed via isolation of vaccine strain compatible measles virus genomic RNA the gut wall and CSF. What more does one need to confirm such an obvious correlationship?

Or how does such reasoning not apply to clustering of vaccine administration and SIDS, SBS, etc. etc. The case of Sally Clark's son so amply demonstrates the lack of medical competence as vaccines (that were administered four hours prior--what about delayed cell mediated reactions that so many "experts" ignore or have forgotten) were not even considered a factor! Few things give me such a visceral nauseating psychosomatic reaction as such.

Some want to have their cake and eat it too. To their dismay, the cake is likely to end up on their face rather than in their G.I. tract. '

A part of the very interesting debate on MMR in the BMJ, same url as above, using smallpox vaccinations in the argument, as in how figures are distorted to promote the benefits of a vaccine and how the figure actually show.

'..Official Statistic from England and Wales from the above cited source demonstrate:

Ten-Year Period	% Infants Vaccinated	Smallpox Deaths
1871-1881	96.5	3708
1881-1891	82.1	933
1891-1901	67.9	437
1901-1911	67.6	395
1911-1921	42.3	12
1921-1931	43.1	25
1931-1941	39.9	1

I gather this site (linked from the BMJ above) must be investigating a possible link between MMR and ADHD?

http://www.mmrthequestions.com/

'Tuesday March 7th 2006 at Robinson College, Cambridge, UK.

The Texas based Thoughtful House Center for Children is fighting to recover children with childhood developmental disorders (Autism, PDD, Asperger's Syndrome, NLD, ADD/ADHD) through a unique combination of medical care, education and research.

Join us on Tuesday March 7th as prominent researchers and clinicians in this field come to Cambridge to present their findings and methods of treatment and care.

Designed for parents and professionals alike, anyone who cares for a child with a developmental disorder will learn something at this meeting. '

An open questioning mind is likely to get beyond government rhetoric and find the scientific evidence as it is being established and not years later.

Finally, a 2005 study - things evolve.  Analytical minds should stay wide open to discover the truth earliest.

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/10979328 9/ABSTRACT?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

Original Article

Neuroglial activation and neuroinflammation in the brain of patients with autism

Diana L. Vargas, MD 1 2, Caterina Nascimbene, MD 1 2 3, Chitra Krishnan, MHS 1, Andrew W. Zimmerman, MD 1 4, Carlos A. Pardo, MD 1 2 5 *

1Department of Neurology, Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, Baltimore, MD 2Division of Neuroimmunology and Infectious Disorders, Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, Baltimore, MD 3Department of Neurology, University of Milan, Italy 4Kennedy Krieger Institute 5Department of Pathology, Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, Baltimore, MD

email: Carlos A. Pardo (cpardo@jhmi.edu)

<sup>*</sup>Correspondence to Carlos A. Pardo, Department of Neurology, Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, Pathology 627, 600 North Wolfe Street, Baltimore, MD 21287

Funded by:
 Cure Autism Now Foundation
 Autism Research Foundation
 NIH (National Institute of Drug Abuse); Grant Number: K08DA016160
 Dr Barry and Renee Gordon and an anonymous donor

Abstract

Autism is a neurodevelopmental disorder characterized by impaired communication and social interaction and may be accompanied by mental retardation and epilepsy. Its cause remains unknown, despite evidence that genetic, environmental, and immunological factors may play a role in its pathogenesis. To investigate whether immune-mediated mechanisms are involved in the pathogenesis of autism, we used immunocytochemistry, cytokine protein arrays, and enzyme-linked immunosorbent assays to study brain tissues and cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) from autistic patients and determined the magnitude of neuroglial and inflammatory reactions and their cytokine expression profiles. Brain tissues from cerebellum, midfrontal, and cingulate gyrus obtained at autopsy from 11 patients with autism were used for morphological studies. Fresh-frozen tissues available from seven patients and CSF from six living autistic patients were used for cytokine protein profiling. We demonstrate an active neuroinflammatory process in the cerebral cortex, white matter, and notably in cerebellum of autistic patients. Immunocytochemical studies showed marked activation of microglia and astroglia, and cytokine profiling indicated that macrophage chemoattractant protein (MCP)-1 and tumor growth factor-1, derived from neuroglia, were the most prevalent cytokines in brain tissues. CSF showed a unique proinflammatory profile of cytokines, including a marked increase in MCP-1. Our findings indicate that innate neuroimmune reactions play a pathogenic role in an undefined proportion of autistic patients, suggesting that future therapies might involve modifying neuroglial responses in the brain. Ann Neurol 2005

An Erratum has been published for this article in Ann Neurol 57: 304, 2005Article.'       An article drawing on studies and referencing the study above, something to consider. A pdf file on Autism http://www.iceh.org/pdfs/LDDI/2005NYMeeting/Hornig.pdf 'OF MERCURY, MICROBES, MICE AND MEN:  ANIMAL MODELS OF NEURODEVELOPMENTAL DAMAGE AND HYPOTHESIS-DRIVEN INTERPRETATION OF DATA  Learning and Developmental Disabilities Initiative Regional MeetingYAI/institute for Developmental Disabilities  New York, NY  9 June 2005 Mady Hornig, MD   Director of Translational Research        & ; ; ; ; ;nbs p;    Jerome L. and Dawn Greene Infectious Disease Laboratory   Associate Professor of Epidemiology Mailman School of Public Health    Columbia University    NIMH, NICHD, NINDS, CDC, UC Davis MIND Institute,    Coalition for Safe Minds, Korein Family Foundation..'   "In the period that Einstein was active as a professor, one of his students came to him and said: “The questions of this year’s exams are the same as last year!”  “True,” Einstein said, “but this year all the answers are different.” If it weren't for Einstein's open and inquiring mind, would we yet know?     Thimerosal Product Info (could this harm anyone?) http://chemdat.merck.de/pls/pi03/web2.search_page2?text=8170 43&lang=4