psychic or psychotic? with ADHD

I personally would not worry about it too much at this point. Watch and see what happens.

We took our son to a lake over the summer. We camped out in tents in a very rural area that night. There were no other people around. In the morning Cody asked how many people died building that lake. I hadn't thought about it up until then. Later, I asked one of the park rangers and he toldsme that the dam collapsed while they were building it and killed something like 30 people. Cody wasn't frightened about this whole incident. Things like that just happen for him from time to time. There is a history of it in the women in my family but he is the first boy I have heard of. Guess that I just don't worry because I was raised around it.

I totally agree with PSM.  I have 2 children with working dxes of bipolar disorder, and she knows what she's talking about.  She's not trying to scare you -- she's trying to help.  It is 100 percent wrong to tell a parent not to worry about it because it will go away.  There are enough bad doctors who say that -- if you came to this board, there must be something in your "mommy gut" telling you to investigate what's going on with your child.  So listen to PSM and listen to yourself.  Good luck.

Well I think you're assuming that 'seeing ghosts' is hallucinating. I don't think she ever said her child was hallucinating. I understand we don't all believe in them and it's apparent that maybe psm and smallmom don't. I'm making an assumption here.

If she would have said her child was hallucinating then I would be more concerned. Again, speaking from my own personal experiences and listening to stories very much like my own from people who are not dx with a mental disorder - didnt sound as if this child was hallucinating to me. We all offer the advice to the best of our knowledge and experience.

Maybe psm is right - maybe your child is hallucinating. Maybe your child sees ghosts. I don't remember you saying your child was talking with them or was necessarily afraid of these 'ghosts'. The fact that your husband had similar experiences as a child makes me believe your child is not hallucinating. I'm only advising from what I've read so far. I'm sure many will disagree with me.

Inabox, it doesn't matter if I believe in ghosts or not.  And there is no way a mother will know whether her child is hallucinating.  Only a doctor will know that.  That's why this child needs an evaluation -- so a DOCTOR can figure out what's going on.

Kppy, I wasn't scolding the original poster.  I was scolding the responder who said don't worry about it; just watch and see what happens.  As I stated before and wholeheartedly agree with you, this child needs an evaluation.

I think the issue here between everyone is that not all of you are knowledgable about bipolar disorder and are not dealing with children that have been diagnosed as such. It is alarming for those of us that understand to hear symptoms like this and it is downplayed by those that just don't understand that it can be a very serious thing. Bipolar disorder is a progressive disorder if left untreated. That is why we are so adement about not hesitating to get this child evaluated. Of course, the best case scenario would be that this child is completely normal, however I doubt this mother would be asking if she felt that way. It is so much better to be safe than sorry.

My husband said he heard them also as a child, and he's definitely not psychotic. I read that chilren reporting hearing voices are not that uncommon, that 8% hear them. And that most of them stop within 3 years. I know they can be a very bad sign, but these things are somewhat reasuring. I'm also open to the possibility that voices are not always bad. He seemed to like it, or at least find it very interesting, if not comforting.

Also something I didnt say is that he always hears them at night before  sleeping and that they don't say anything specific except calling his name. THey never tell him to do things or taunt him or repeat his thoughts. I grilled him about it, and he liked being the center of attention for it, so thats another factor...

But I will look into the Bipolar book, can bipolar seem like ADHD?

GOsh now that I posted twice I can't stop! I guess I was more frustrated and upset than I thought!! My son is 6 and diagnosed with ADHD. He's always been a little different. Super affectionate little boy, although always a little morbid, very interested in talking about death. 

THis is going to sound SO wierd but he frequently ask me about things that I am thinking about- but not talking about. Just random thoughts. For example I was thinking about my sitster going on the plane for her honymoon. He perks up and says "whats a honymoon?". Sometimes it gets a little disturbing, like when he asks me about some private conversation I've had with my husband after he's in bed...VERY scary actually.

Then he says that he hears voices at night and sees a ghost in his room. I dont like the sound of that, I don''t want him to be afraid. I don't want him to be going crazy either. His paternal Grandmother and Uncle were schizophrenic. But he doesnt seem to be afraid. He starts asking all about seeing people that are dead.  Asking all about dying and what happens and what he thinks happens. We are not in any organized religion, although sometimes I wish I had answers that that would provide for him.

Anyway I'm rambling. But I wonder is my son psychotic or psychic. The doctor can't help because they think thats all hogwash.

Rosie

You're wrong about psychosis. Kids with bipolar, at least half the time, hallucinate. it's quite common. I would take this kid to a Psychiatrist (skip the pediatrician or psycologist). ADHD doesn't have psychosis with it, but a mood disorder can. Is there mental illness on either side of the family tree? Kids can hear and see things that are not there, and that needs to be stopped with medication or the voices can get quite dangerous and, according to my son's pdoc, very compelling. Kids feel they have to listen to them. Not to mention they are frightening to the child. Don't ignore it. If any mood problems, substance abuse, suicidal ideation or schizophrenia run in the family, don't treat this kid for ADHD. The meds will only make him worse and delay proper treatment. A preoccupation with death, dying, and gore are also big earmarks of early onset bipolar, not ADHD. I highly recommend reading "The Bipolar Child" by Dimitri and Janice Papalos. It's at the library or any bookstore. This child isn't psychic, he's ill and needs help. I don't mean to be so blunt, but I don't want you to take it lightly or think kids can't have hallucinations because they can and do, but not because of ADHD.

www.bpchildresearch.org

www.conductdisorders.com

I posted a few links.

Well I believe in ghosts and I've experienced things I couldn't explain. I don't necessarily believe that your child is psychotic at any level but it wouldn't hurt to look deeper in this if it makes you feel better. Also, it's not so rare that children do see or talk with ghosts. It is said that often imaginary friends are exactly that. I'll leave it up to you whether you want to believe it or not.

BTW, there is such thing as juvenile schizophrenia.

Good questions: what is he watching? who does he play with? does he play video games?

Unfortunately too many adults chalk a fearful child's hallucinations off as imagination. They are not simply there for schizophrenia. They are also common in bipolar disorder. It is very uncommon for kids to talk to ghosts and have imaginery friends that THEY BELIEVE ARE REAL. We dealt with a wrong bipolar diagnosis for a long time, but I chatted on the chldhood bipolar site for three years,t he duration of time my son was diagnosed. Almost all the bipolar kids had hallucinations of some sort until they were put on mood stabilizers/anti-psychotics. You have a very fearful child here who is consumed with death. I would not think this is being psychic. Why take chances with a little kid who could be quite ill? The only reason is fear or denial. If the child DOES go to a Psychiatrist, please bring up the fact that he hears and sees things and the psyschiatrist will talk to him and judge if he thinks so. Does he ever talk to himself when you're not there or he doesn't think anybody is around? Our pdoc told us that that is one way they diagnose hallucinations. Not all kids with hallucinations do it, but many do. The meds for hallucinations in kids are Risperdal, Geodon, Abilify, Zyprexa and Seroquel. They are very helpful. Scary tV shows can cause nightmares, but not hallucinations. Here is a good site with older, schooled parents who have various disorders. You may want to ask the same question on this site. You'll get feedback from parents who have seen it all (about the psychosis). ADHD meds can cause a child who has psychosis to get it worse. Better to be safe than sorry.

www.conductdisorders.com

There is such a thing as juvenile schizophrenia, however hallucinations do NOT mean a child is schizophrenic. It is a misconception that delusions and hallucinations mean that. According to The Bipolar Child, if their is a family history of manic-depression, depression, or alcoholism it is unlikely that it is schizophrenia.

I agree with psm that it is better to be safe than sorry. Please do not take these things lightly.

He's on Concerta and only watches tv a little bit and all KPBS preschool stuff.  Early last year they loved scary kidstuff like Goosebumps (mostly monsters, werewolves etc- not ghosts though), but then got too scared at bedtime so we stopped with that. THe most significant thing he saw on TV was an add for a movie where a kid says "I see dead people." And he was totally riveted and asked questions about it untill I couldn't stand the subject anymore (hours). He doesnt play video games. FOr fun he mostly plays with his brothers, rides his bike or messes around with action figures. He seems pretty normal to look at asdie from the ADHD.

He is unusually careful with animals. We did have a dog and other small pets (hermit crab, bird) that died and kicked off the death facination..

Anyway be assured we are trying to do our best for him we won't let him twist in the wind if he's bipolar or has some other psychosis. THe whole goal is his happiness in life and his fullfillment. So we need to take it slow and be open to the possibility that he could be different in ways we don't understand or doesn't pose a problem to him.  

I'll do the bipolar research for sure, I might even take him to a psychiatrist anyway to diagnose the ADHD. Of course they will never be open minded to the psychic thing and might even think I'm a nut if I mention it. But I know he's reading my thoughts, and my husbands' too. It's just not possible that its that big of a coincidence. Maybe it's just some extreme form of empathy or something? Maybe there is no difference... It's nice to hear other moms have this happen too..

R

THis is going to sound SO wierd but he frequently ask me about things that I am thinking about- but not talking about. Just random thoughts. For example I was thinking about my sitster going on the plane for her honymoon. He perks up and says "whats a honymoon?". Sometimes it gets a little disturbing, like when he asks me about some private conversation I've had with my husband after he's in bed...VERY scary actually.

I think we've had a little misunderstanding and I don't want anyone to think that I wouldn't absoluely recomend an evaluation.  I'm very sorry that some of you feel that I was saying that. Just to clarify, if the things that are being said are things that can be verified......I don't worry. So many healthy normal women in my family do it that I just dont even think about it. Its a very odd occurance that just happens in my mind. Just like the day that I get a call from my great aunt in New York telling me that my grandmother was dead. Upon checking the death certificate, my grandmother died almost exactly 30 minutes later.....in Texas. I asked and asked but no one had spoken with anyone in New York. Not that anyone could have anyway, who knows about fatal car accidents beforehand. I'm just saying that there is a possibility.

I GET THE LAST WORD...hehehe.

Hey, I got enough words in :)

[QUOTE=psm0904]InaBox, bringing psychic into a medical discussion, imo, isn't helpful and belongs on a different board. Since you have limited knowledge of bipolar, kids who hallucinate, etc. you can certainly speak your mind, but it's not from any informed experience. I agree that life isn't black and white, but to say hearing and seeing ghosts is normal...well...maybe on another board it would be, but this woman is trying to help her son. No offense and now I'll bow out of the discussion. I think I made it clear that, if this were my child, he'd be seeing a Psychiatrist for an evaluation as to whether or not this child is hallucinating. There is no reason not to evaluate other than fear (which I understand, but which won't help the suffering child).[/QUOTE]

Psm, I didnt bring psychic into a medical discussion - the poster did and she included that her husband was much the same when he was a child. She never mentioned that he has a mental disorder so I'm going to assume he doesn't. Also, she didn't say her child was hallucinating - you did. That was your interpretation of the story. I'm not saying you're wrong but it may not necessarily be the case here. Maybe her child CAN see ghosts. I know plenty of people who have and these are all respectable members of our society. Again, there were two sides of her question. You gave your interpretation and I gave mine. Lets not assume that one of us is wrong. Anything is possible.

I find ALL of these posts really really interesting and informative! Please don't ask parents to stop posting about the possiblility of it being something other than psychosis.  Do I prefer to think it might be something other than psychosis ? YES! Will I disregard the possibility of psychosis because someone posted that it might not be- no.

My daughter and I are both highly intuitive.  We often know what a person will say or do before they even know it themselves.  I have had a couple of experiences where I saw a fleeting glimpse of a ghost.  I also work in a 1881 building that served as the jail.  A ghost occupies this building.  No one sees it but we hear it (movement sounds) and strange things happen at times.  However, I have never heard voices.  My daughter has heard voices since she was a child.  Mostly just calling her name.  She didn't tell me this until about a year ago because she was afraid we would think she was crazy.  She is bipolar and I am not.  She has never had visual hallucinations but has alot of delusions similar to what PSM described.

The point I am trying to make here is that it is very possible to be somewhat psychic and suffer from a disorder such as bipolar.  I fully believe that there are people who can see ghosts.  Some of these may be hallucinating and some may not.  The difference between my daughter and I was the existance of the mood issues.  She had mood swings, talked of wanting to die, had high anxiety levels, angry rages and a severe problem with attention.  Her early diagnosis was ADD and depression.  I think that you have to look at the whole picture.  In and of itself, seeing ghosts or knowing what someone else is thinking doesn't mean a child definately has a mood disorder.  However, when you start piling the other symptoms on top of this, then you have a problem.  Only a good evaluation can determine this.

Thanks, psm.  Yes, it does seem to help.  She has never been formally diagnosed with it, but the Depakote was originally started about a year and a half ago when she was having some OCD symptoms.  She has been evaluated by several doctors during the interim, and the Bipolar is still pure speculation.  However, she is so much better on it, that I wouldn't want to change anything at this point.  She even tells the doctor's, "don't take me off the depakote."  She is even willing to put up with the periodic bloodwork.  I do have a cousin that has bi-polar disorder.  Our oldest son may have cyclothymic disorder.  There is no one else that has been diagnosed that we know about.  However, my husbands sister has had some issues in the past-we are uncertain if she shas ever been treated or diagnosed.  My husband and I are both non-drinkers, but both of us had grandfathers who were severely alcoholic.

[QUOTE=psm0904]InaBox, You are not familiar with early onset bipolar. At any rate, a Psychiatrist should assess the situation and will likely take it with the seriousness it deserves. [/QUOTE]

You're right, I'm not too familiar with early onset bipolar. In fact, I wasn't even touching the subject in my posts but agreed it should be taken into consideration. I did say an assessment should be taken place. I was more less speaking in the spiritual side of this initial post. It was part of the question and I answered it from my own personal experiences in that regard.

Imac, I have to disagree with you. Life isn't black in white. Some of the greatest advice comes from those who've been open to suggest all possibilities - whether it fit or not. It's good to check out all options and not assume that we're doctors in here giving us our children's dx. We're here to support each other and will do so from our own knowledge and experience. I always admit when I don't know enough about a specific topic but if I feel there is something that should be addressed, I will do so anyhow. Who knows, it may be a valuable piece.

I don't understand how some of you can come up with thiese dire and extreme diagnoses when the poster admits that her son is eerily on the mark with his tuned-in qualities.

I have a couple of family members who have slight psychic tendencies.  I am not otherworldly, but I do believe there are people who have superior abilities in this area.

Morbidity is a common symptom of precocious, or gifted children.  They have a greater understanding (fear of/fascination with) death than a regular kid, who blows away aliens in a video game and doesn't see any connection to dying.  My kid is tenderhearted towards animals and scared of scary movies, but might make jokes about death (and when he was five, made grand pronouncements to get attention, like, "I'm going to KILL MYSELF!!!")

He was, and is, a happy child so we just busted him (rather than freaked out), but of course, with a morose, withdrawn child these symptoms would be worrisome. 

Sure, haul him off to a shrink if it seems like he's unhappy.  Otherwise...?  Ask him if the stock market is going to go up.

Well I think we've all agreed that further investigation should take place. I mentioned this myself .. a thorough evaluation wouldn't hurt despite whether or not this child sees ghosts. There are many more symptoms to make a diagnoses instead of just hallucinations itself. Keep in mind, if the child IS seeing ghosts and is not in fact hallucinating, I would doubt a doctor would agree that the child is seeing just that - ghosts.

I also don't think anyone here has downplayed bipolar as a possibility but are instead throwing another scenario to think about. Ultimately, the parents know best and will follow through accordingly. Having said that, suggesting that this child may show signs of bipolar vs. frightening the poster that she needs to see a neuro-psychologist PRONTO is another .. scared me! and I'm not the one posting. I think this suggestion got a bit carried away with what was being implied but understand that we all come from different experiences and can react emotionally. Please don't discredit those who aren't personally affiliated with bipolar. We don't have to have a child with it in order to understand its symptoms. I respect the possibility that this may very well be the cause of this situation.

Regardless, talk to your doctor and see what happens. Best of luck.

I don't understand how some of you can come up with thiese dire and extreme diagnoses when the poster admits that her son is eerily on the mark with his tuned-in qualities.

[/QUOTE]

No one is diagnosing just pointing out that it could be symptoms of a disorder that many are not educated about. I for one would never tell a parent their child does or does not have a disorder. That is why we are suggesting that a PSYCHIATRIST evaluate the child.

Bipolar disorder is not something to be taken lightly. With early diagnosis and intervention, a child has a great chance at success. The downside to not diagnosing is significant when the suicide rate is so high for untreated people. Not to mention the years of frustration over why they can't get their child under control because they are treating the wrong disorder.

Again, I guess if you are not knowledgable or dealing with bipolar disoder, it is easy to think that this is an alarmist reaction. It is just so important for this child not to dismiss this behavior. I truly hope that this child is just highly imaginative or intuitive, but I can not tell this parent that is the situation. No one can but a dr.