self-will/discipline | ADHD Information
and too much unstructured time is deadly for us! That reminds me...I need to get dressed and eat breakfast and start a load of laundry and clean my bathrooms and...........bye!
Glad I could help!
I totally agree with you bepatient. I have to remind myself to
think that something I do for me will make me feel better. Even
doing the chores makes me think better of myself. The kids don't
care that much, but I
care. But often I get lost in the wash because I think I am
really doing it for the kids. There's more pleasure from thinking
I am doing it for myself. If that makes sense.
These are questions I ask myself as well.
I think when we do things for others, it brings us the structure we so desperately need. We have to be accountable to others. There is a time limit on most of the things we do for others too. But there is still the question. Why can't we be accountable to ourselves?
I was watching Dr. Phil the other day. He said something to one of his guests that really was a revelation to me...He was dealing with a woman with very low self esteem. It was not only affecting her, but her relationships as well. Especially how she related and cared for her daughter.
Dr. Phil asked her what she thought her daughter should be getting from her or what her daughter deserved...well this question changed this woman's whole perspective. She said that her daughter diserved the best. The best she could give. This was a motivation to the woman. "Light bulb" to me.
Oooooh, get my house clean, plan and make dinners, have the laundry done, calmly sit down with my children and talk about their day....ect. "DO IT FOR MY CHILDREN..NOT FOR ME!" Now that motivated me!
(So I guess if you don't have kids your just really screwed!!)
If you don't have kids, there's more time to
I think the lack of motivation is all about the inadequate neurotransmitter activity in the brain of an adder. Added to this, if we get too far under, like people without add, we can become overwhelmed and give up.
With a friend's car, there may be more neurotransmitter activity because we think of the firend and the relatively quick response of letting them down or not letting them down, and want to avoid letting them down. It's easy to avoid paying parking tickets for a while but it's hard to keep this type of thing from a friend. (It matters to us on a short term scale.) Plus, in the case you mentioned, you have the structure of knowing exactly what to do to avoid it.
I don't know much about scientology or L Ron Hubbard. However, I may like to read his book if it is all about dealing with add. Is that correct?
For coping with a lack of motivation, one thing I've found useful is just to be aware of why I'm not doing it at the time. For some reason being aware of the neurotransmitter issues and telling myself that internally at the time, combined with accepting how I feel, allows me to choose against the natural inclination - to move through it and do the boring thing anyways
thanks for that thedog - yes, i guess that is the core issue. the lack of neurotransmitter activity (i feel like i should be able to WILL that activity - is that ridiuculous or what?).
[QUOTE=TheDog]
I don't know much about scientology or L Ron Hubbard. However, I may like to read his book if it is all about dealing with add. Is that correct
[/QUOTE]
no, in fact that is not quite correct so i don't want to give a wrong impression here. it's kinda my interpretation from the little bits and pieces of scientology that i have come across.
scientologists, in fact, don't believe in ADD (irony of all ironies). i think L Ron Hubbard was a classic ADDer and he developed this way of overcoming his ADD and becoming functional with it - and it was such a breakthrough for him that he wanted to tell everyone about it...
it is a sort of psychiatric/mental way of dealing with the blocks that ADD brings up. as far as i know L Ron Hubbard was sent to a psychiatrist but in the days of lobotomies and electric shock therapy --- so he developed a complete horror of them and came up with his own solutions. i wonder if he were still alive today and could see HOW well Adderall and the like solve the problems of ADD that he wouldn't be a huge fan.......
Any attack of Depression/Anxiety can cause many to lose track of their motivation, as this is also due to neurotransmitters which need a 'cheaper, better' way to be analised than just once for several thousand cash. The 'tech'should be available within 12 15years to 'economically' analise on a house hold budget and as KITS at your Walgreens and CVS stores.
Imagine having to pay for the tests for opportunity in employment. That a Drug company has the 'patent rights' to a suppression of a disease you may have? Instant company property. This was L. Ron Hubbard's greatest achievements?
P.S. ,,, How long has he been dead???Did it really help him ,,now? I believe there are more important things beyond this life than fame or glory vanity.
repairman38786.3289930556chjones - To me it sounds that it may been at least partly not caring enough about yourself or low self esteem.I have poor memory and can be really bad about missing appointments. I know I need to put them on them on the calendar, but lately had put off doing that til I missed one. I embarrassed myself so bad because I knew I could have avoided it. That created enough anxiety that I made sure I had them ALL on the calendar.
Why didn't I put them on the calendar in the first place. I think part of that is as I said I just didn't care enough about myself to do it. The good news is that it woke me up to it. I have let myself esteem really slide lately and that's hurting me.
I think with ADD, we have ABILITY to do everything-- be on time, be detail-oriented, be organized, but our brain simply doesn't have the motivation to do it. It's asleep at the wheel. Sometimes, some of the ADD-like stuff I do IS willful, but not always. The willful stuff has probably about the same occurrence as other people's willful lapses (everyone at some point is late or disorganized or lazy, etc. I have a friend who owed about 0 in parking tickets at one point-- no ADD in sight).
I think doing stuff for other people is a powerful motivator. We push the running commentary in our brains to the backround briefly and focus all our mental resources to making sure we don't disappoint that person.
I think taritac hit the nail on the head. When it is someone else, for some reason, the idea that we may disappoint someone else acts as a sort of outside structure. We don't have the internal structure to do what we know we should do, but when the structure is on the outside. ( post its palms, other people...) We are better able to be more successful.
When attending a staff development, I learned from the presenter that ADDers that have comorbid anxiety are statistically most likely to be successful in life in comparison to the rest of the ADD population. Possibly because the anxiety can act as a tool when we really do want to please others. I don't know if the anxiety acts as a focusing stimulant in our system, ( adrenaline?) or if somehow the people pleasing desire overides the ADD.
Some of the people pleasing stuff may be more a trait for women than men, since we tend to be less hyper and more inattentive. ( I said TENDENCY, I know that there are hyper women too!)
Sherry
Just a strange thought, If you created a second personality for your actions, would you try not to upset the hypothetical personality, or would you lay the blame on the 'created personality' to absolve yourself of responsibility.
Maybe I'm one of the Anxiety' types then, because I've always thought of my skills as 'lacking', but I'm now the top mechanic on 3rd shift. My skills are still lacking, even if they're the best where I work!
that's the perfectionist trait in you! top mechanic is fantastic... i guess i could try creating an alter-ego although it might make me madder than i already am which would be worrying...
but i think it is a nice idea. and i am always up for trying new coping mechanisms. so i'll let you know if it works at all (i feel somehow i just wouldn't be able to quite trick myself into the same level of responsibility that i feel toward others - but if it works even just a little bit, it's better than nothing. thanks!)
i know it is one of the things ADDers tend to beat themselves up about but i really want to understand the motivation behind my lack of self-discipline.
i have had a history of parking tickets. about ten years ago when i had a little mini - i never quite got round to getting it registered to have a parking permit, so then i got a lot of tickets for parking it outside my house (without a permit in London). so then i was too scared to go and get a permit because of the outstanding tickets which i couldn't afford to pay....
so it ended up with me owing after about 5 years - 2,460 pounds worth of parking tickets... (that's got to be about ,500 or similar) on a car that was worth maybe 700 quid.
when my car got towed - and the parking wardens started to shout at me about paying my tickets and that they wouldn't release my car. i phoned a friend, who was a lawyer, and he informed me that they had no 'right' (at that time, it has since changed) to keep my car if i simply paid the towing charges for that particular time - 120 pounds.
so i did - but i was so freaked out. i took the car and drove it to France to my sisters and just gave it to her - it was almost on its last legs but i thought she could keep it for any guests or similar. but a typical f**ked-up kinda ADDer solution to a problem that just never would have been a problem if i could have got round to getting the permit in the first place. but i couldn't because i didn't know where all the bits of paper were ---- and it was all just too much.
now the tickets have passed the statute of limitations i think. so i don't have to worry about that.
BUT i noticed something. now that i am currently borrowing a friend's car - i have it in my head NOT to get a parking ticket. i don't want him to have to pay 50/100 quid. so no matter what - i drive around until i FIND a spot. i put money in the meter (even if it means having to go to a shop for change). and i don't get a ticket.
i have never done this when it is my car. i have always chanced it/parked on a yellow line/not had the change and well, never mind/and got LOADS of tickets - that i ignore until the bailiffs come to the door.
but i obviously CAN do it. so somewhere it IS a question of self-will. it is the same for everything - if it involves me, improving my life, my stuff - i just seem not to care enough. if i am doing something for someone else (barring my memory failing) i really care and take a lot of time over it.
what is this? it is as if i want to exist sometimes on the lowest common denominator. do the minimum amount of effort required - just to get by but no more. i CAN do more. i CAN easily do more. i just CAN'T be bothered or something - i would rather sit on the computer posting/playing spider solitaire/pretending to be editing without doing a thing! isn't that true somewhere. i know i have ADD, i know i have a mountain of fighting my own brain, i know that other people don't necessarily have that mountain to move - but is it not also a question of developing the self-discipline, self-will i need???? can i not do that without the ADDerall - is it impossible?
if i could only get myself to care enough - rather than having to wait until crunch time for some kind of reaction to kick in.
chjones38786.1132638889and yeah, re-reading that i can see it sounds a little like the scientology thing of a 'reactive brain'. i am not a scientologist - i went, in LA, to their centre and it just spooked me ------------- but i gotta admit i think L Ron Hubbard was, without doubt, an ADDer and what's more i think the whole of scientology is just his way of trying to combat his ADD.
which probably worked initially, to a certain extent, and then he went barking mad. a lot of ADDers do though.
meeting went well thanks folks. of course, i didn't do a thing over the weekend - just got up at 5am on Monday read all the papers, made notes - jumped in the car shot down the motorway (luckily clear so at 100 mph) and got there ten minutes late but not as late as one other director and blamed it on the traffic - which in fact had been fantastic...
oh boy, just takes me back to highschool and the same old, same old doing homework five minutes before class! i need that pressure - cos it's not as though i didn't have the time - i had plenty, plenty, plenty of time!
still it went really well. apart from that - i got everything done pretty much. but as kdlmaj says ---- i find it a lot easier when there is more to do (it isn't enough! because the moment i have free time - i can't motivate, i sit here or waste it).
but everyone has been really kind i think they realise i am slightly off-form and have been dragging me out every, single night to meet people and stop me falling into a 'hole' of sorts. it is hard when you are not on form but i try to hide it - and they perservere with me!
people are good.
lobotomies ---- huh? i'm not sure, bepatient but i'll be sure to let you know if i find out. perhaps i should just ask those who look as if they have received one???? (sure way to get punched in the face
)Fantastic, chjones, you did it! One thing I wanted to mention is that you sound like me in some ways when I'm not on an antidepressant. That thing where you are always late, and waste free time, well I can control that much better when I am on an antidepressant. Just thought I'd mention it for whatever its worth, your struggles with ADHD might have you in a little depression.
I am amazed at how well you do, hang in there.
cynthiatweedle38794.1330092593yes, i am a little depressed right now cynthia it's true. i am ridiculously over-sensitive to my environment as it goes both climate and just general surroundings. i am currently staying with a friend in London and i find his flat depressing (there is nothing obviously wrong with it at all) but, i guess, for me whatever they call it the feng shui or yada, yada, yada is all wrong.
and i am SO hypersensitive to that sort of thing! the moment i get out of here - the better. i am working on it (to a certain extent).
sometimes, ya know, i just want to be a wandering mendicant. begging bowl and all - and then i wonder 'so, why not just DO it then! what's stopping you!'
who knows? my intellect. fear. or common sense???????
thanks tho for the heads up on depression. i recognise when i get depressed and you are right, now is one of those times!
cj
I'm glad to hear that you recognize it and do hope you will take care of yourself. I was actually hinting that you consider getting an antidepressant, though I don't know if you want to hear that or not.
I'm the same as you in in over-sensitive to my environment. I also used to dream about being a beach bum and I think that was to relieve stress, because I always loved working too much and my little bit of structure was always too comfortable.
Take care, chjones.
hey cynthia
yeah no, i wouldn't consider the anti-depressant. although i am a big fan of it for others!!!!! i think i am not chemically imbalanced as a permanent problem at all - i am merely in a situation which my body/soul doesn't like and is therefore stating its objections by deliberately altering my brain chemicals to get me to DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!!!
which, of course, being the procrastinator i am - takes some time to get around to doing. hence i stay fairly depressed until i have managed to change my situation to one my brain/body/soul is happier with.
the trouble often being - i am at a loss to pinpoint exactly which part of my life is the problem (answer likely well, most of it
).
no, i wouldn't medicate that away unless it was entirely immobilising -
i like having that as a reminder to get on and change things, i suppose
you could call it an ADDled form of an internal motivation..... in a
weird way.it is also the weather --- i am sure i was born to live in a hot country! despite burning at the slightest hint of a ray of sunshine - i love to be in a hot climate.
another good reason to be a 'beachbum' - it sounds kinda good, although i meant more a religious mendicant (and what's the difference - i hear you ask???) well, i guess not much. just the one i would be focusing on god and trying to help others as much as i possibly could. so not so much difference, perhaps.
i will take care. and you go safely too! my heart is free --- but i am not sure i have the courage to follow it. i need a little pot of courage....
thanks
cj
Ah a religious mendicant. Now I can see the point in that and were it not for family I would be focusing on god and trying to help others also. I did that for awhile til I decided my grandchildren deserved some of that focus.
I used to have a teacher in a mental health course who always said "anxiety is your/my friend". I think that is right for all us. No you certainly don't want to mask the problem.
Wish I could send you a little bit of Texas. But courage you have already! Keep us posted. I will be glad to hear when you've gotten out of that environment.
For any one topic you enjoy, you can develop control. You have to find a mindset where you can develop the mindset into a habit(OCD)(O F""K), as long as it doesen't become too automatic. I guess I'm OCD about the equipment I work on, as I actually want to be the BEST! I already am in my work, but I always want to be better! I just have no competition at work, which means I do it all while others stand around
.
You might be sensitive to feng swey as far as the flat goes, never found a flat thats sensitive to the enviroment, biological or socialogical. Is there a large picture window to the east, best for morning,and meditation!
Yup, I feel you. I feel like I've been fighting with myself all of my life. The thing is, at what point is it the ADD and our INTENSE dislike of having to work on tasks we can't focus on, and at what point is it just us being so used to not doing anything we don't want to do that we've developed no coping skills for situations like that?
I remember as a kid, being bored was the most MISERABLE experience imaginable. I had a pretty upsetting and unhappy childhood in general, but it was always the boredom that I hated the most. Nothing's really changed. I'm just older now, and I can choose not to be bored. But during those times when I can't...it's painful.
just to come back to this topic.does anyone know HOW TO develop self-discipline at all? (why am i asking here on an ADDers board????)
but as ADDers, excepting the meds, did you learn any way of developing will power/self-discipline? like a sure-fire simple way, at all? i can't seem to get it. i fail and crumple and give in ALL the time. i get paralysed and i can't get out of it. i get stuck on the computer and (i feel as if) i can't move.
obviously i can. but i haven't developed a good way of overcoming this internal resistance or developing the requisite will-power/self-discipline. i think i might find learning martial arts too aggressive
i went once to some tae-kwon-do classes but found myself coming out and thinking "punch punch block kick kick punch" which i found too aggressive. i don't want to be thinking like that all the time! despite the fact that i had by far the fastest reactions in the whole class (hahaha - i was chuffed by that! that's what comes of having three older sisters! had to be good for something). i beat them ALL hands down - including the teacher in the reaction game!
going off topic again --- yeah SELF-DISCIPLINE/WILL POWER how do you get it?????????????
any thoughts welcome. thanks.
I suggest cognitive behavioral therapy. This will teach how to change your thinking and behavior. What I learned about it came from school and studying it for myself, but you would do much better with a therapist. Glen has had this therapy and it helped him to get in control of his life. I think you would love it.
Go Chjones. You can do it. That's good advice spaz, breaking things done into smaller steps.
chjones,
Wow sounds like you have a lot on your plate right now, but don't give up you can do it!
We are all rooting for you!
It usualy helps me if I can break things down into smaller steps, and give myself a deadline. Otherwise I start thinking I need to be doing it all right now and I panic.
Go check right now to make sure you have that suit otherwise if you are like me you will keep putting it off and discover sun. night you don't have one.
Hang in there and let us know how it all goes. Remember we are all pulling for you!
it is self-esteem. and it is a vicious circle or beneficial circle in that the moment you start to get a grip, keep your house tidy, dress well, get your appointments done the more it builds up your self-esteem, the more confidence you have, the more energy you get from that, the more things you do, the more achievements you create, rewards you receive, the more positive reaction you get back from others and so on and so forth.
the other option is you slide further down, you look a mess, you don't go outside the house, you stop interacting, you get further inside your head, you hate yourself, your esteem gets lower and lower until you are at the point of saying look at myself i'm a slob, lazy, stupid, boring, not doing anything with my life, i'm a pointless waste of space - and it could seem to be absolutely true.
it is STRUCTURE too. there was another post from josh someone --- talking about his OCD wife and how her absolute insistence on structure from HAVING to have the cups with the handles at 45 degree angle in the cupboard, having to have absolute everything have it's right place and not deviate from there. and simply not being able to accept it any other way --- had actually worked in his favour. and i think that would work for me too, as it goes.
i need to get myself in the ARMY or something.
currently i have no structure - the small things i do have like Board Meetings etc. i cling on to like a life raft. they force me back into, back into getting it together. yes, as bepatient said maybe if i had children that would be another strong motivator. i only wish i COULD motivate myself for myself tho!
i do believe in God - completely. so i will try to use that as a motivating force. that i am wasting this precious life i have been given. that God wants us to enjoy it and be thankful for him to it, rather than waste it wallowing in lack of structure and low self-esteem. i am worth it - but i shall also try to see it as a service to my religious beliefs and perhaps that will help too??? to create more of a structure in my life - who knows??? i just wish i was better at delivering the requisite 'kick in the a$$' to myself. GET MOTIVATED!!!!!! do NOT fall back into lazy, self-destructive behaviour patterns. overcome those stupid impulses (like coming on to this board rather than editing). just DON'T do it. get the work done. be PRO-ACTIVE. get a grip! get the flippin self-discipline you need! (and don't beat yourself up hahahaha). but what is it - what is it this thing that pushes me back down into my bed, or back reading here when i should be editing, or back down playing solitaire. what is that thing! is it laziness or anxiety or lack of self-discipline or low self-esteem or self-destructive behavioural tendencies or what or simply ADD - and can someone come and lobotomise me and cut it out!
it's my biggest mortal sin sloth/apathy i have no issues with (or rather i probably have the usual amount) greed/lust/anger/pride/envy/avarice. i wish to overcome SLOTH and how do i do that??? that is the point of free-will isn't it, that we do have the capability to will ourselves to overcome those seven things. that there is a choice there - it is always a choice. and it's not physical sloth for me - i am fit, i love walking in the mountains for three or four days at a time with a tent et al. walking in the Alps is my most favourite thing almost --- i will choose to walk somewhere rather than drive most of the time. it's MENTAL sloth - that's the killer for me. SELF-DISCIPLINE i don't even understand how/where to start...... the words barely make sense. but i know i want it. i hate the fact that decisions i take and make can be swayed by things like a 'desire for comfort'. it bugs me! i want to be free to make decisions and act on them without any interference from any other part of my darn brain!
yeah, yeah, i know - that's what the ADDerall is for... surely there has to be another way tho. i mean what did people do before ADDerall. what? how did they overcome? (those that did)
thanks for all the input!
big kiss to all!
chjones38787.1286574074ok. i can see i was about to get into a typical counterproductive, beat-myself-up ADDer thing there.
so now, i have taken a long, calm breath. told myself it is all fine and will take a gentle look at my board-meeting papers now.
bye.
Just to chime in...
The point about anxiety and ADD really ressonates with me. As a child growing up, I was so horribly afraid of getting into trouble or not doing well that I would put enormous amounts of pressure on myself to accomplish these things. I also suffered from low self-esteem for most of my childhood and into the teenage years, and if I couldn't be smart, then I didn't think I had anything to offer. I had been tested at genious level as a child, so I think that the pressure I put on myself and the utter fear of failure along with my intelligence really helped me cope with the ADD for a long time. But I've spent my entire life fighting with myself over these things. Half of me can't imagine getting anything done, and the other half of me can't fathom not finishing it. So I'd miss all my little homework assignments, get As on all of my tests, and then put myself through utter hell to finish the major projects (always at the absolute last second; without that terror of not finishing it just couldn't be done) so it could all average out to a B+. Eventually though, this coping strategy just wasn't enough when the work couldn't be done that last second and when the anxiety built up to a level where it created avoidance and not inspiration. That's when things came crashing down around me.
And the point about lots of free time being our demise...SO true. I took a break after my MA, and I've just been utterly helpless when it comes to getting back in gear for law school. Without all of the structure and pressure, I can't start anything, and even if I do, I can't finish it. I'm just awash, and it's not pretty.
Guess that's what meds are for!
Yes chjones, it is so frustrating!
Sometimes (well, more than sometimes) I make my "to do" list for the next day and put it on my re-fridge. with a magnet. The next morning I know full well that it's there. I avoid it on purpose! What the fu** is that!! Good Lord, how I can sabotage myself! It's like I'm being stubborn with myself! . Da**! I gotta laugh or I'll cry!
Sometimes I even try to trick myself into cleaning my house. I imagine I'm having a get together at my house and the guests are arriving at a certain time!
I recently thought about asking a friend of mine to come over every Friday afternoon just so I could get motivated about cleaning. I's amazing how fast I can do it under time pressure!
chjones, who did you say does the lobotomies?
Yeah, but on some level it's just a lot easier to get started when you have 20 things looming over you. When it's just one or two, it's impossible.
Now, finishing the tasks...that's a whole different story
The two things I am really procrastinating about are getting that last load of laundry folded and put away and Vacuming the upstairs. Doesn't sound like much compared to everything you have going chjones.
chjones,
Just checking back so you don't feel forgotten. How are all your projects coming?Are you ready for your meeting tomorrow? How about that editing?
I just got to thinking we need to start a motivation forum where we could go and list all the things we need to get done for the day, then post wether or not we copleted those tasks at the end of the day. That way we have accountability.we could cheer each other on and help each other stay motivated!
wow. that is a kinda radical idea. i feel slightly scared at the thought of it (just goes to show how rubbish and unstructured i am!)ok - here goes. tonight i have to see a friend - that's easy because i enjoy that and it is no problem.
tomorrow (over the weekend) --- i HAVE to get read all the board papers for my board meeting on Monday. not only do i have to read them but i also have to be sure to make any notes that i want to bring up for them (otherwise i am liable to forget without a list). i also need to make sure i have a suitable suit to wear (i'm pretty sure i do)
do my washing. and house stuff. finish EDITING (this is a fairly long term thing - it doesn't need to be done before WED after next - but i think i will put a date on it of next Friday - to be finished!!)
write my initial report from India (must must must do that - please don't let me not have that done by Wed...). that is slightly separate from the editing scenario.
must book flight. must continue to look for jobs even tho i am in the midst of finishing one and am stuck in a horrible 'low' right now. must TRY to sort finances. this is not as easy as it sounds --- i want to move my credit card balance --- BUT i have no fixed address and for some reason i am not on the credit agencies as existing (it's not that i have bad credit, which i do, but for some reason i simply don't exist on their files.... or they can't trace me at the moment) so nobody wants to take my credit card over because they can't get a credit reference and i don't have permanent employment because i am freelance - so i don't have a monthly pay check and i don't have a current employer as a reference - and nobody over here has even heard of ADD practically so i ain't gonna get any leeway there. however there must be a way. i just need to fight the urge to say 'frick it' i don't care i'll just keep making the payments...............
there has to be a way --- it'll just take a lot of leg-work. trying to find a bank that will overlook no-fixed-abode for the last year or so, constant charges on my account, no credit reference, no steady employment, no current employer issues. good ----- why don't i just give up now.......... i swear the world is stacked against us ADDers just cos we can't fit us into that same small box they push everyone else into - w**kers! what is wrong with being a bit freelance, a bit gypsy-like and a bit disorganised. doesn't make me a sodding criminal does it???????
other than that - must download more footage (this part i HATE for some reason) that can be done after Wed tho. for more editing.
I was just thinkingn about this very thing this morning. I was trying to unravel why I tend to create so much anxiety for myself, like I will decide I need to complete an Impossible amount of things for the day. Then I will run around desperatly trying to get them done, and I always worry about dissapointing DH if tasks are not completed (wich of course they never are).
I guess this is just my way of getting myself motivated. It will kill me at an early age though, TOO much cortisol from STRESS! Allthough I am doing much better with help from Wellbutrin.
be patiant ( laundry, bathrooms), That is exactly what I am doing err avoiding today
Well I better stop avoiding and get back to work myself!
See you guys latter on my next work avoidance break.