ADHD and Bipolar | ADHD Information
A word about Imac's comment: Bipolar kids like to defy authority. I think it's the "risk" or the "thrill" or the "high" you get from taking on the top. I'm trying to remember how I felt as a kid when I defied my parents and I do think there is a bit of "loving excitement" that goes with bipolar. It's "a touch of mania." Contrary to what some people believe, the worst of a bipolar child's rages are during "mixed" states (caught between depression and mania--a BIG problem with kids) and childhood mania rather than depression, which manifests more as crying, weeping, suicidal speak, and talking about being no good and hating you and the world in general. The most dangerous part of bipolar is a "mixed" state and kids cycle so quickly that they get stuck there often, thus terrible rages. You have the anger and sadness of depression with manic energy--yikes. A highly unsettling combo. You are in full mode to start chaos. It is almost soothing to you. IMac38945.6176157407I'm a first time visitor here in desperation and this article makes me realize that my 12 y/o may have been incorrectly diagnoised with ADHD as we've been on a roller coaster for almost 7 years now. Much of this is true in my son's case but at the same time I'm feeling frustrated thinking that we are looking for anything that gives us an answer to our problems.
Throughout all the different meds he's been on, eventually temper outbursts happen with all. I've questioned for years if this is normal - with Strattera, they'd start around 5:30 and were triggered by aggrivation - either not getting his way with friends or parents. He'd get in a violent mode, it would last about 40-45 minutes and then he'd suddenly snap out of it and would be puzzled - looking dazed as if "what the heck happened." I figured he was crashing from the meds and it would happen about two to three times a year.
He's also had sucidial threats and now it's getting much worse. He's on Ritalin LA now and it has appeared to work fairly well over the past year, but he's moving back towards these violent outbursts. He provoked a fight with me just the other day and was relentless - his father finally interviened and it got worse. He feels as if he's ruined his whole life and I'm so fearful of the sucide threats.
I'm desperately seeking a good therapist for him but haven't felt comfortable enough with the two recommended. Neither of us liked them very much. I'm seeking someone who's really good with kids and someone who will give me direction and advise without blaming me for what's going on. I even went to the PNP Center (Lawless) yesterday - they were booked through April, didn't seem to care about my desperation and now I'm realizing this may just be another gimick.
[QUOTE=Racinrhonda] He'd get in a violent mode, it would last about 40-45 minutes and then he'd suddenly snap out of it and would be puzzled - looking dazed as if "what the heck happened." I figured he was crashing from the meds and it would happen about two to three times a year.[/QUOTE]
Rhonda, have you asked him afterward if he remembers the rage?
This sounds like my son, Dylan. But, he always remembered everything he did, just felt so awful after the rage was over.
If your son doesn't remember, I think (don't quote me, but I think) that could be some sort of seizure activity. Someone on another message board had posted information to me before about this if Dylan couldn't remember the incidents.
IMHO, you don't want a therapist right now to diagnose your son. You really want to look for, at least, a board certified PSYCHIATRIST (not psychologist) and if you can find one, a neuropsychologist.
Hugs
Thanks for your insight and help Janna. Asking him what he remembers seems like an obvious question but I've never actually done that. I wonder if in highsight I could ask him and he'd remember.
There's just so many other symptons mentioned that hit right on target like #1, 4, some cases of 6, 7, 10, 11, 13, 14. All of these seem so terrible, but many times he can be the sweetest and most caring child - taking time to play with younger children, love of animals, etc.
I've concluded I need to find a good psychiatrist and am in process of doing research at this time.
Sounds liky Dylan was a handfull and it's so good to hear both of you are doing better.
My son has never been severe on a continual basis in the hyper area or anything like you've described with Dylan. He has big mood swings from happy to depressed that interchange every day almost but his highs aren't overly high and his depressions don't seem too drastic (other than the suicide threats and feelings of worthlessness). He can be smart in school and does well in some subjects and then awful in others where he's just not motivated and fails to turn in or do assignments.)
Still trying to research Physciatrists in the Dallas-Ft. Worth area who specialize in Pediaatrics. There's only about four that come up and I want to know more about them before I commit to an appointment but nothing can be found on the internet as far as a bio or anything. I've been that route with phychologists twice before and I need to be assured that I feel it's someone we can work with or it's a waste of money - our insurance doesn't cover mental health. This is so aggrivating - I called Cooks Children's Behavioral Medical Center and before you can even make an appointment, much less ask about their doctors, they want you to go through a 15 minute profile assessment and also give out your socal security numbers, insurance info, etc. Sounded extreme to me so I just hung up.
Racinrhonda38807.5565509259For what it's worth, Rhonda, if your child has alot of those symptoms and has something like severe ADHD or Bipolar disorder or anything else, try to keep in mind there ARE really GOOD medications once you have the right dx from a psychiatrist that can help your child, and the majority of it is probably not his fault.
My 9 year old, Dylan, was completely out of control. He was so severe ODD I couldn't even get him to do something simple like brush his teeth without him going into a 2 hour rage. It was awful. NO control over any of his emotions, none. No attention, fully hyper, couldn't sit still for 3 minutes. Ugh, it was horrible (I hate even thinking about it).
But, thank the good Lord above, we found a really great pdoc, who put Dylan on a mood stabilizer for Bipolar and I tell ya, he's a totally different child. He's a really good kid, no more rages, no more tantrums, no more ODD, no more anything. He's just, well, almost perfect.
So, it can happen, just try to keep that in mind. I wish you a whole lot of luck on your pdoc search. Hugs!!
This is a helpful list of differences between ADHD and bipolar disorder. I will say, however, that the factors that have my son's pdoc leaning toward a BP dx are 1) family history (anxiety, depression, bipolar in increasing order of importance -- we have anxiety and depression throughout our family tree) and 2) my son's intense, prolonged reaction to an SSRI (six weeks after we removed Zoloft my son was still raging nightly, and it didn't stop until he was at a therapeutic level of Depakote). In addition, my son exhibited two classic manic symptoms: 1)staying up late, waking up early and never appearing tired and 2) goal-directed frenzied activity. You should also know that a dx of BP is generally reached over years of observing the child. Our pdoc said we should know for sure when my son is 14 (he is turning 13 in May). However, if BP is suspected, it is very important to start the appropriate treatment (mood stabilizers and possibly atypical antipsychotics) because the wrong treatment (stimulants and antidepressants) can make the illness progress. If you are seeing a lot of chronic irritability (not episodic), a dx of depression should be considered. BTW, our pdoc said BP kids almost always receive a dx of ADHD first. They do have the inattention and executive function deficits that ADHD kids have, but those deficits generally fall under the umbrella dx of BP.
SmallMom38806.3445949074FYI: "Bumping" is done so the thread will be on the first page and easy to find for another member. In other words, it has important information and we want to keep it so new members or a specific member can see it right off the bat.
That was really good information, as my son goes April 10th, for another evaluation to see if he has bipolar along with his adhd.Interesting article. Also very interesting that my ds has little of those listed bp symptoms....
Sarah
Stimulants are typically very destabilizing to kids with bipolar.
Morpheus38812.712349537My daughter is ADHD & Bipolar. Successfully being treated with Depakote and Focalin.The tantrums prior to medication were frequent and loud. And her behavior when she tried Adderal without Depakote was downright volatile! While many of the points listed in this article were present in her premedicated condition, if I'd read that prior to her dx, I wouldn't have thought it was her.
Prior to dx (age 6) she was mostly manic (no anger, no violence) and her mood "cycling" was very rapid (like adhd). She was either crying or elated. She always remembered her "episodes". She has a difficult time falling asleep, but has never had gory nightmares, doesn't usually respond negatively to "no" and is easily triggered by excessive stimulation (very adhd). She always avoids confrontation. She has definite discalcula LD and is not easily motivated (adhd). She's the biggest chicken you've ever met - won't even go on the smallest kiddie rides - no daredevil in her. She is extremely gifted in art and writing.
She's also very charming, both initially and long-term, and cares a great deal about others and what they think.
But she IS Bipolar. There is a family history. The Depakote is working.
Plus, now that she's a bit older and can talk about it, she will tell you how she "knows" she shouldn't be sad, but she just is. Or she really shouldn't have a friend over because she's feeling angry and they might fight. Or she "knows" she's not the very best artist that's ever lived, but her "grandiose" inflated self is making her feel that way (mania).
It's so important not to pidgeon-hole the symptoms and get your own dx. We were just exceptionally lucky to have an excellent ped-neurologist that recognized the BP. I never would have caught it...
IMac38945.618125I have seen that and agree with it. I also agree with janna, that odd is in part caused by inconsistent parenting. I am trying to improve this, but it is very hard. My son has a diagnosis of ADHD and possible ODD. Could end up being bi polar later in life, but we and pdoc do not think he is. He does have tendencies, though. We just have to watch and see.
Sounds all exactly right to me.
My son has spent the last 5 1/2 years with an ADHD dx on his Axis I. The sad part is, he's not ADHD (although it's still on there as a R/O until the neuro confirms it's not there).
The differences between the two seem right on.
As far as the ODD goes - this is my own personal .02, and I am no doctor. My son was ODD because of the following reasons:
My inconsistent parenting (telling him no - him throwing a rage - me giving in)
Not giving adequate consequences, rewards, and being firm (i.e. MEANING whatg I say and SAYING what I mean, every single time, consistently)
He was on stimulants and not Bipolar medications, hence being over stimulated and already manic
In my own situation, FWIW - now that he's been dx'ed Bipolar and medicated for THAT (mood stabilizer, docs) he is no longer ODD.
No kidding. Right hand to God.
He follows the charts. He listens. He takes the answer no (although I don't come out right and say NO, I always say something else, for example "Mom can I have a piece of candy" - "If you go do the dishes Dylan, you may have a piece of candy". Bribery LOL).
Now, he's Bipolar, so there are always going to be issues, just find it surely strange that now he's on good meds, he's no longer ODD.
Go figure?
Although I'm kinda a mean mom 
I can ignore a rage for 3 good, long hours and he WILL do what I want
IMac38945.6173842593
It sounds 100% right on the money. Dr. Poppler is a big shot in the field of psychiatry. This is sort of what I try to say to people who post here. "If it's too severe for ADHD, it probably isn't."
ODD is an iffy diagnosis--more like a group of symptoms than a stand alone disorder. My guess, imho, is that it will eventually be taken out of the DSM.
Have you guys seen this? It came up on my Google search, and I didn't know it was part of this web site 
:
http://www.adhdnews.com/bipolar.htm
You guys who know about bipolar, what do you think about the info?
Lillian, thanks for posting the link.I read the article and assessed my son (results below) and am as confused
as ever. He seems to exhibit a mix of both BP and ADHD charactistics.
He is now on Focalin and his school and homework have improved
immensely. He is also taking Risperdal in the evening and his outbursts
have significantly reduced.
Destructiveness occurs in anger (BP)
Usually calms down in 20-30 minutes. My son calms down in 2 minutes
(ADHD)
Rare to see disorganized thinking, language (ADHD)
Reacts to limit setting (BP)
Does not show depression (ADHD)
Not slow to awake, no fuzzy thinking (ADHD)
Neither fear of going to sleep or multiple awakenings (ADHD)
Learning compromised by motivational problems (BP?) His learning has
not been compromised. But his grades were poor due to not completing
assignments. But he still tests well. So not sure about this one.
Giftedness in certain cognitive functions (BP)
Pleasant during interview (ADHD)
More likely to crash into a wall with intent than by accident (BP)
Does not seek out danger (ADHD)
More sever symptoms as the child becomes larger and implusivity
becomes more difficult to contain (BP)
Does not exhibit psychotic symptoms (ADHD)
Bump for RajinCajunOur daughter Eloise (11) has seen regular counselling to offer her help in dealing with her bouts of anger, oppositional behaviours, physically & verbally attacking her siblings, vandalising the belongings of her siblings, temper-tantrums, post - school explosive outbursts towards her family and constant defiance towards her step - mother. (maybe not living with her real mother could be the issue - but her other 4 siblings don't show these signs).
These traits ARE only seen in our home. At school, she demonstrates being the perfect student and her teachers don't believe what we are saying because they don't see her behaving this way. Last year, we noticed that she has struggled to mask these traits at school. We found her forging teacher signatures for merit awards, being dishonest, being sneaky with boyfriends and disrepecting her personal belongings.
The counselling informed us that she may suffer from Oppositional Disorder and/or Conduct Disorder and that in time she will improve. Her father (militaryman) when deployed leaves us with this child who refuses to listen to my authority.
After reading a number of other posts, it appears as though she possibly might have been wrongly diagnosed...is she Bipolar instead??
Anyone seen these signs before please??
Tarn & LloydOur son Lachlan (8) having been dx ADHD last year has seen us learn and move forward from a state on not knowing why we were having all these issues of lack of self-control, loudness, teary, screaming every so often, fidgetty and couldn't stay on task.
Now after 1yr of meds, we have (and Lachlan) recognised the amount of change for the better: such as longer concentration, less fidgetness, willing to listen to reason. So much so, we are now seeing a happier outlook who is now able to make friends, join in sports and enjoy life for a change.
From a parent's point of view, this is the outcome we are trying to achieve, therefore it is worth being open and trying all methods available to find what suits despite the negativity that comes from certain areas ie: taking drugs, the herbal methods.
At the end of the day we have a happier soul who wants to live life...
Tarn & Lloyd
See a NeuroPsych. He can diagnose ADHD and beyond. A Psychiatrist isn't schooled in Neurology. Bipolar is like extreme ADHD with rage, and it also runs in the family. If you have substance abuse, mood problems or suicide in the family, those are red flags for bipolar. It is just more extreme than ADHD and includes the serious attention difficulties. STims and Stratera dont' help bipolar and can make it worse.
www.conductdisorders.com (You can ask the moms there how they got bipolar dx. vs. ADHD. Lots of moms started out with ADHD dx. and it wasn't)
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