Need opinions | ADHD Information
Just got off the phone with the nurse and she agress that it sounds like there is something else going on and possible mood disorder.
What she wants to do is go upon the Concerta for a few days and see what he does. If he is worse we know to stop it! Also, she gave me names of two Neurophyschologist and I just left a message for one to get my son in asap!!
Also, my sons Pyschiatristis board certified and very well known and my sons Pediatrician sent me to him. I trust their judgement there. I think the fact her advice is what you both advised is good.
This is so hard. I'm so scared and afraid for my son. Geez, I'm in tears typing this. Forgive me if I have mispelled words! I'm just worried sick about all of this!
My son was just diagnosed with ADHD a while back. I posted a bit about how lying habits but I don't think I got into detail about that and another issue.
When my son lies it is like he believes his own lies. It actually seems like he is in how own reality and believes what he is saying even when it is obvious he is not telling the truth. When he gets caught sometimes he will defend his lies as the gospel truth and I just can't understand this behavior.
Another odd thing my son does is constant strange mood swings, depressive behavior.
For example. My family went to Arkansas for Easter, this included my parents and siblings, and their kids. So when we stopped at a McDonalds to eat all the kids were wanting to ride in each other's cars together and I asked my son if he wanted to ride will all the boys or with us in our car. He was quick to say he wanted to ride with us and said he is no way wanted to ride with the boys. We were walking to the cars to get going and he started walking towards to the middle but leaning on riding with his coy cousins. I asked him what he was doing and he just stood there and started crying and told me that I just didn't want him to ride with his cousins and that he wanted to ride with them. Let me make this clear, I never gave him any reason to think he could not ride with his cousins and even encouraged it! It was him who said he wanted only to ride with us. Anyhow, he was crying and got upset for nothing and went and road with them.
Here is the thing. My son has this type of behavior all the time. His moods change left and right and for no reason.
Also lately he has become very disobediant and constantly in trouble for not obeying us, talking back, yelling at us, etc... This is my son off the medication. He never really has been on anything to help him yet. We are still experimenting and taking a low dose of Concerta ER which doesn't seemto be doing anything. I'm going to call the doctor and maybe start therapy for my son. I just don't know what else to do. He is a basket case. We never know what kind ofmood he will be in. He will act angry, sad, depressed, and than the next minute later be a normal happy little boy, but somewhat act like a baby.
Thoughts?
Halls, what kind of doctor diagnosed him? Has he seen a board-certified child psychiatrist who has experience treating children with mood disorders? To me -- and I'm a mom, not a doctor -- it sounds as if there's more going on than ADHD. A board-certified child psychiatrist is the best professional to diagnose mood issues (anxiety, depression, mood disorder), and a neuropsychologist is the best professional to diagnose childhood neurological disorders, including but not limited to ADHD. Both ADHD meds (like Concerta) and antidepressants can make kids with mood disorders worse so you do need to know what you're dealing with before experimenting with meds. Good luck.
I worked in mental health for 7 years and I agree with smallmom it sounds like something else could be going on. I am not an expert either but it is worth looking into to rule things out.Oppositional Defiant Disorder is a behavioral / family dynamics issue and has nothing to do with brain chemistry or function. Parenting classes and family therapy can help with ODD.
It is very common for teenagers to be depressed, especially undiagnosed and untreated teenagers.
I disagree that lying is common ADHD behavior , but it definitely is part of ODD. As far as Barkley saying it is ADHD behavior, he receives constant criticism for the negative lean he takes in his ADHD research.
Well, the research I have done is that lying is typical in ADHD and the dyslexia specialist at my sons schoolwho has two ADHD children herself says that her children had lying issues like this and that from her experience habitual lying is a symptom of ADHD. When I discussed this with my sons Pyschiatrist he agreed and says he sees that a lot.nlhood,how is odd treated along side of ADHD or by itself?Halls,
That is such great news about the meds working better for your son now that the doc increased the dosage! You should be really glad and frankly, proud of yourself, for catching this early. If your son was left undiagnosed into adolescents, believe me, you would not believe how bad the ADHD/ODD combo can get. My daughter was first thought to be ODD when she had her IQ test to enter the gifted program at age 7. I never got an "official" diagnosis for it because I never felt comfortable with ODD being an underlying chemical imbalance or brain-function-based "root cause". The hardest thing for me was when the depression set in this past fall. I almost would wish to go back to the days when she was yelling at us when I asked her to do something very basic like pick up her shoes, rather than to see her shut down from us emotionally like she did and become very morose and private.
It's really hard, but you really have to take a step back and feel for these poor kids. They aren't pretending to be this illogical or confounding--they truly are feeling overwhelmed and frustrated by something they can't control. It must be miserable for them at times when the situation is untreated. Someone described it to us recently so it all finally made perfect sense to me. Here's a kid (my daughter) who can only handle 30% of what the world is throwing at her. Yet 100% of the stimuli is reaching her, like it reaches everyone else, and life demands that people process that information. While most people can adequately process the information or can fundamentally develop the know-how to stack to stimuli in order of importance and organize it, a kid like my daughter can't do that. She's only able to process a small portion of auditory, sensory, and visual information that comes her way, and it can't help but become too much for her to take at times. Thus, when I ask one of my other kids (who are younger) to stop what they are doing and do a chore for me, they may grumble but they have the ability of self-talk and other tools to reassure themselves that once they get done with the chore, they can go back to their game. My 13-year-old simply can't do that.
Behavioral interventions have been absolutely necessary for us, because even though she is not on meds yet, meds won't be able to address all her issues that have become reinforced over 13 years of non-treatment. One thing common of ADD kids is that they miss normal social cues. There are lots of therapies designed to help kids with these issues, as well as lots of good books. I think one is called Raise Your Child's Social IQ or something like that. I've heard it recommended several times but have never read it. It may help with your son's social quirks. ADHD coaches are also available in most major cities and metropolitan areas.
The story of your son at McDonalds totally cracked me up. I hope you don't mind! But we have been through so many similar situations where I felt like I was going to pull my hair out! My take on it is that there are so many choices at McDonald's that they have a hard time making up their minds. They become overwhelmed, which leads to the frustration, which leads to the kid getting very upset. Later, when my daughter is relaxed and calm, she will say things like, "I don't get why I got so mad over that. It was ridiculous."
Well, good luck to you and your son. He sounds like a sweetie who is beginning to really come around. I love happy endings!
NLH
IMac,
Yes, that's what I said in my message to Halls. It is usually comorbid with something else and in our particular case, it took awhile to find what that "something else" was.
NLH
Ok, I just found your earlier post. It sounds more like a mood disorder. You don't have to be constantly up and down for bipolar. In fact, in kids you can't even see the cycling. It's too fast. Usually the kids just present as rageful, angry, sometimes violent ADHD. ODD is a huge part of early onset bipolar.From:http://health.ivillage.com/mentalhealth/mhdissociate/0,,6fll ,00.html
"Pathological lying is not an inherent characteristic of bipolar disorder or attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD). That is, people with bipolar disorder or ADHD are no more or less likely to lie than are people with most other psychiatric disorders, or people without psychiatric disorders, for that matter. The exception might be when someone with bipolar disorder is in such a manic state that they lose touch with reality and report -- and believe -- things about themselves and other people that aren't true, but such statements are a manifestation of delusions rather than a conscious intent to deceive. . ."
[QUOTE=nlhood]
IMac,
Russell Barkley (one of the most preeminent scientific
researchers on ADD/ADHD in the country) did a study that was
published in the Journal of the American Academy of Child and
Adolescent Psychiatry, The Adolescent outcome: An 8-year prospective followup.
I found this abstract from http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&a mp;db=PubMed&list_uids=2387789&dopt=Abstrac t
The presence of conduct disorder accounted for much though not all of
these outcomes. Family status of hyperactives was much less stable over
time than in the normal subjects.
I don't subscribe to pubmed, but would be interested in what you have.
Re: www.russellbarkley.org
No luck there and my computer is pretty good with find
searches. I do know a psychologist on another forum who knows
everything you ever wanted to know about Russ Barkley. Should I ask him
or would I be wasting his time. We are talking ADHD with no comorbids,
right?
IMac,
Russell Barkley (one of the most preeminent scientific researchers on ADD/ADHD in the country) did a study that was published in the Journal of the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, The Adolescent outcome: An 8-year prospective followup. I have the synopsis of the study in another book on ADD that I own, but if you actually want to read the entire study he has many of his research papers available on his website, www.russellbarkley.org. At any rate, the unfortunate statistics are that ADHD children lie at a rate of 49% as compared to Typical children who lie at a rate of 7%. While this is not happy news to hear, I'm sure Halls would appreciate knowing this and that she is not alone in dealing with this problem! Of course, this does not mean that all ADHD children make a living out of lying, but offers an explanation for those of us who do have to deal with this issue with our kids.
NLH
SmallMom,
Yep, I do know that, and elements of Executive Dysfunction also occur in people with no discernable "disorder", such as people who have poor working memories but otherwise function normally.
Halls,
The point here is that emotional regulation symptoms of ADD are lesser known and understood aspects of the disorder that you may want to research a little and ask your son's psychiatrist about. Find out the science of ADD and it will explain a lot. There are people on this board second guessing your psychiatrist, who happened to come highly recommended by your pediatrician, and that can be very confusing for someone such as yourself who is just entering the world of mental health diagnoses. You can always get a second opinion if the meds don't work out or if your son doesn't improve, but I've been in your position and I could see and feel the pain and emotion in your post. I offered you one insight based on my own experience that may or may not be relevant to your son, but no one else had offered it and I thought it could be useful.
The best advice I would give is to have an open line of communication with your son's doctor, ask him lots of questions (including whether he thinks your son has a co-occuring disorder with ADHD and/or if he thinks your son might be bipolar as some here are suggesting.) One thing is for certain: diagnosing mental health issues should be left to the professionals!
Hang in there!
NLH
Halls,
First, a warning: this post is rather long and I apologize for that. I wanted to take the time to write because I have been in your shoes.
Your son sounds a lot like my 13-year-old daughter. We never suspected ADD because she wasn't hyperactive and was in the gifted program. She acted fine in school but was a holy terror at home. She got into rages that lasted about 20 minutes. We erroneously suspected bipolar disorder. Fast forward 3 years, and to make a long story short, she has been diagnosed ADD (inattentive), ODD and major Depression. I am extremely confident in this diagnosis.
I honestly think she believes her own lies as well. She lies all the time. She also exhibits the same behaviors as your son. She can't make up her mind about things and gets very frustrated then yells a lot. For example, we might say, "Sweetie, we're going to a movie, wanna come?" and she'll say, "NO, that's a ridiculous movie! Besides, I'm busy!" Knowing her, we give her another option, "OK, well we're leaving in an hour, let us know if you change your mind!" We get ready to go and ask her for the last time and she might yell something like, "For God's sake, stop asking me!!! That's a stupid movie!!!!" So then when we get back from the movie, as we usually are able to predict in these situations, she'll say something like, "The whole family went to the movies but never invited me! I HATE YOU!"
Sound familiar? She has always been like that from the time she was born. Very illogical for being so smart, and we also thought she was being manipulative. At times I have even thought she was flat-out crazy 
!! It was easy to suspect bipolar disorder because of all her behaviors, but medications for that didn't work, plus her tantrums/rages were only 20 minutes or so, not hours long as they normally would be with bipolar.
The one thing that is different between our kids is that you say ADHD meds didn't work with your son. We have not yet tried ADHD meds but we are starting that process. I would suggest really researching Executive Function Disorders in kids with ADD before you jump the gun to a mood disorder. Executive Function difficulties can't be fixed completely with meds and thus it might be something that is going on with your son that you could talk with your son's pyschiatrist about.
There is a very short, very inexpensive book (100 pages) available on Amazon by Martin Kutscher, M.D. called "ADHD Book: Living Right Now". It explains a lot more about ADD/ADHD and goes into a lot more detail with symptoms than does the DSM-IV diagnostic criteria. If you google it, I believe he has a website with a summary of his book there. There are many other resources available about ADD/ADHD kids with emotional regulation issues which stem from dysfunctions in the area of the brain that is supposed to manage Executive Functions. Dr. Thomas E. Brown of Yale also has done a lot of research in this area.
It sounds like your son, like my daughter, has major trouble transitioning and becomes overwhelmed. Also, on the issue of lying: many children with ADD/ADHD lie because of their lack of problem solving skills. The will stick to the lie after being caught because they honestly can't think of a logical explanation for their behavior, and have no clue as to how to explain it. My daughter was typing a letter on Word the other day when she was supposed to be doing computer research. I could see the Word screen up but she told me she was researching. When I asked her why she lied, she got all red in the face and said she didn't know.
Sorry to go on for so long. I hope I've helped in some way! Hang in there and please let me know how it goes.
As for mood disorders, you probably already know this but depression occurs in 10-30% of kids with ADD/ADHD.
NLH
If your son's main problems are switching moods, it's a good idea to see a Child Psychiatrist (with the MD) for possible early onset bipolar disorder. If he has it, ADHD meds could make it even worse. That's what I recommend. Read my link about bipolar/ADHD. Lots of good information about early onset bipolar in that post. It should still be here on the first page. Personally, I think this is not ADHD or that the major problem is not ADHD. The moodswings are too constant and severe.
OlderMom38825.5490856481
Just so you know -- executive function deficits occur in kids with bipolar disorder as well as in kids with ADHD. Both my BP kids have executive function deficits.
[QUOTE=nlhood]Also, on the issue of lying: many children with ADD/ADHD lie because of their lack of problem solving skills. The will stick to the lie after being caught because they honestly can't think of a logical explanation for their behavior, and have no clue as to how to explain it.[/QUOTE]
nlhood, I hadn't heard of this ADHD behaviour before.
Thanks so much nlhood! I am not suspecting bipolar cause he isn't consistantly off up and down. His weird things he does happen here and there and not consistant.
As far as the meds I have positive news to report. My son went up on his concerta today and wasmuch more attentive and happier. He had no major side affects and seems to be doing well.
But nlhood, what you said sounds so familiar to me. My son has a hard time with his moods like your daughter does. It is so hard when it happens. Another example is when I'm driving through McDonalds and I will ask my son what he wants and he will say a hamburger and fries and as soon as I order the food and we are going up to pay he says he want chicken instead. I tell him it is to late and he gets very upset. I know this doesn't sound like a big deal, but this is just one smaller example of the issues. He doesn't do these types of things all the time but when he does do it I can't figure out what I did wrong or how to handle it!
Yes,lying is a huge partof ADHD as I have been made aware so I know this lying habit could be the ADHD. I think therpay where someone is spending timewith my son can give me a better diagnosis what is going on. I think my son is ADHD but has other problems. I think there is some depression there, but not bipolar. He has odd social issues so I think there is something socially going on there as well. I have considered ODD and think it might be something my son has.
Anyhow,today was a good day and tonight I held my son in my arms and told him how much I love him and how proud of him I am. He was so sweet and cuddly. NO matter what is wrong with my son I think he is as perfect as when I gave birth to him. I won't let him down though. I'm determined to get answers for everything he has and hopefully get him all the help he needs!
I don't think ADHD makes people lie, that I am aware of but...
I have ADHD, and I am generally too impulsive to be dishonest. Directly from brain to mouth is usually too much information. However, I have lied just as impulsively a few times. It shocked me just as much as the person who knew I was lying.
It felt sort of like a "half functioning" editor. Not enough impulse control to completely close my mouth, but enough to realize I did not want to tell the truth in that particular situation.
Shrug.
My 9 year old girl who has ADD (inattentive/impulsive) also lies about stuff that her friends or teacher catch her in, and she truly doesn't think she did it. It is a little spooky trying to figure out the real story sometimes. I agree w/Reisa that it seems like (for us at least) things happen before she has time to think about them. Brain to mouth or brain to body. [QUOTE=Reisa]I have ADHD, and I am generally too impulsive to be dishonest. Directly from brain to mouth is usually too much information.[/QUOTE]Exactly!
A search for Dr. Barkley+ADHD+honesty got results.
http://www.pediatricneurology.com/anger.htm
Dealing with lying
· Lying is often a part of ADHD. It is part of the disability.
· Lying will typically get better over the long run.
· Lying may occur because the child is totally befuddled how he got into this mess. There simply is no logical explanation (ADHD is not logical), so they make one up.
· Clearly, sticking to a lie once you have been clearly “caught” is not a logical “choice.” Observing the unbelievable mental contortions of these children as they muddle through a lie provides a valuable window into their remarkable lack of problem-solving skills.
· Don’t set them up to lie. If you already know about an infringement, just state the facts that you know, and proceed with the consequences. Do not use this as an honesty test.
· Minimize the need to lie by eliminating some punishments that the child lies to avoid.
· Develop a plan to solve the original problem area that led to the lie.
my ds, now 8 years old, has started the lying. i punish with several differ methods, any suggestions would be greatly help. He's only doing it on a small scale. I tell him if he lies, he gets into trouble for the lie and in trouble for the subject he lies about. He knows the consequences and he is getting much better about it, but still any advice on how to shorten the "faze" I'd love to know.btw - imac clean your freaking litter up already.
Well, so it seems some kids lie with ADHD and some don't. Mine does and never truly understands why he did it. However, I still discipline him for his lies and I have to say when I do he seems to do a bit better and make an effort not to lie. It is a day by day process for us.Well, my son is ADHD and he's not a liar. He attracts other ADHD kids like magnets, so I've been around many other ADHD kids, and they aren't liars, either. As I've said, I don't care for Barkley. If I listened to what he said about ADHD and the likelihood of a poor life for kids with ADHD, I'd hari kari.