I am fairly new to all of this also and the subluxation and Pfifer Clinic stuff I've never heard of. Sorry. But you can bet I will be researching it tonight. Anyway, this is a very helpful board and you are going to get some great advice from the parents here. I read a reply that somebody (I can't really remember who) posted to another threat that pretty much said that your goal here is to improve the quality of your son's life. When I read that it really hit a chord with me, because I think I have become so wrapped up in what I want for my child, and what I have preconcieved ideas about that I never really looked at it from that perspective. I think that is a great piece of advice that you should seriously consider.
Also, if I were you I would not let ANYBODY (especially your ped) start him on any meds until he has had actual testing for ADHD or other disorders that could co-occur with it or even be mistaken for it. TReating him for ADD/ADHD when he doesn't actually have it could be detrimental to his health. Get him properly dx'd first. There's a 100% chance that at least three to four parents on here are going to tell you to take him to a neuropsychiatrist for extensive testing and although I haven't gone down that road yet I am working on getting there. So I will be the first to tell you to do the same. Good Luck with everything. I know exactly how you are feeling right now. I am in tears also as I spend last night at the hospital with my child visiting a perp nurse. It was loads of fun, and I'm exhausted and frustrated for him......
Frankly, I wouldn't put this kid on ANY ADHD meds. He may not have ADHD. It could be high functioning autism or early onset bipolar, especially if mood disorders or substance abuse are in the family tree, on either side. If you put him on stimulants, and he doesn't have ADHD, it could very easily make him significantly worse. To me, the first thing you need before even considering meds is a concrete diagnosis and complete evaluation by a professional with expertise--NeuroPsychs are very good at extensive testing for ADHD and beyond. Aggressiveness is worrisome and stims usually make aggressive kids even more aggressive and it is unlikely plain ADHD with that as such a bad symptom that he's been kicked out of schools already, poor kid. I wouldn't even go there with the pediatrician. Peds don't have the training to test and diagnose these complicated kids. You can find NeuroPsychs at both university and children's hospitals. I wouldn't do plain Psycologists or non-MD therapists. A Child Psychiatrist may also be helpful, but they won't test as extensively as a NeuroPsych. My ADHD/ODD kid turned out to REALLY have a high functioning form of autism, and is doing great now on NO meds. Stims made him more hyper and also aggressive, and he's not an aggressive kid. Know what you're dealing with. School personnel, including their psycologists, are usually not the best and brightest at these disorders. My advice from expeience is to hold off until he is totally evaluated or you could cause a bigger problem. Sadly, if he has early onset bipolar, you can try alternatives, but they won't help much. I have bipolar and it's pretty serious. Just doesn't seem like plain ADHD to me. Anyways, good luck.OlderMom38845.6145486111Haha, Julie. I read your post after I posted, and you were 100% right that somebody would bring up a NeuroPsych! Also, great perspective on our k ids. It's about the child, not our dreams, unfortunately.Is he pushing, kicking, etc. these kids because he is mad? Or is it more of an overstimualtion?
My son---when playing at recess or in our yard can become too overstim'd because it is unstructured. He will be swinging sticks, kicking, hitting, throwing gravel, etc. But alot of the time---its his way of playing and he is just being hyper/manic. Then there are times were it is anger. Alot of anger!!! He can get extremely violent when things are "his" rules or way. We've had to restrain him many times---the last time it was towards our psych and he nearly killed her. We had to restrain him on the cement sidewalk--face down for 30 min until he calmed.
The over excitement is due to sensory issues and inability to process the world around them.
Are you seeing a neuropsych for therapy? We've been seeing ours since Jacob was 3yo. She started a social skills group for these kids. It is wonderful for them---to learn how to play together and approperiately.
Thank you everyone for your advice. Holly- I don't know anything about autism but a few others have commented that it also has characteristics of bipolar. My son started aggressive behavior at age 3 where he would get so excited during play time that he would hit someone, kick them, push them down, etc. This would be for no reason at all except for just getting excited. He would be playing nicely and then all of a sudden, he just acts out. We went for occupational therapy and that helped but now, it is so much worse in kdg. The normal stuff (hyperactivity, lack of attention, babbling, always on the go, temper tantrums, etc) I am used to by now. The school says he is about 40% attention span in the classroom and he should be at 75% attention. The aggressive behavior is effecting him on the playground and in the after school club, during play dates (which I rarely have), and at church. There is nothing really that sets him off except overly stimulation. For example, he pushes kids down in the playground- whips sticks at them- throws rocks- pushes kids into lockers- pushed a girl down and kicked her in the face- tried to push a girl down the stairs, etc. This all happens during regular play time and then next thing you know, someone is hurt and it is never Jimmy. Scotmama- I want my son in behavior therapy, social classes, play therapy, etc but I can't seem to locate these classes- Where do I look for this? The school won't offer any help since he is in kdg- next year, he is eligible but not in kdg. Where can I look for classes for this summer?we are in scotland so i am sorry i can't tell you.we did it through our health visitor and jude's psychiatrist.youcould ask any of the others who live in united state.try to open a new topic telling where you are and if anybody knows about all these classes.you would be surprised,some of them would probably look in the internet for you.I agree with everything OlderMom has posted. You are looking for a neuropsychologist, not a neurologist. Neuropsychologists are frequently found at university and children's hospitals. Because you have anxiety disorders and substance abuse in your family tree, I would also recommend an evaluation by a board-certified child psychiatrist. Good luck.
I can try to answer you last couple of questions. As far as chemical dependency, when you talk with your evaluator, they should ask your family history. They will take that into account. Also, one thing to think about, is that many ADHDers will SELF-MEDICATE, with drugs, alcohol, pot, whatever to get some relief. I don't think a therapeutic dose of any of the meds has shown in studies to be a risk for down the road later.
Second, about chiropractic. I started a thread on the Alternatives section about chirorpactic and ADHD. Yes, I do think it is one thing you can try, as I've seen many children come into our practice that have settled down greatly. A subluxation is a misalignment of the spine. Chiropractors use very gentle methods, and my son was adjusted from day one.
Then, there are the omegas, magnesiums, etc also on the alternatives section. It's overwhelming. We are having some success with these.
It's all very overwhelming. There is no rush. Get the right dx, go from there. If you are intersted in supplements, you can do those now on your own and see if they help any.
Feel free to pm me if I can help you sort through any of the alts.
(((HUGS)))
I am confused now. I already have the appointment with the pediatrician for this Saturday and I have already given her an overview (35 minute phone conversation last week) and faxed her the basc scale results which is what the child psychologist and social worker used to diagnosis Jimmy. Should I cancel this appointment? Maybe she can direct me to get a 2nd opinion and I can get a referral to see someone else... And, they do have a child psychiatrist that I can request to speak with... what do you suggest? Keep the appointment for Saturday or cancel it and start over with a neuropsych? Sorry to be a pain- I am just confused and what is "pm"I would go right to the top,,,Neuropsych. I think most on the board thru their own trials and errors, would say the same. So sorry! PM meens private message. At the bottom of this post is the little envelope icon. Goes right to the messenger.I would start far beyond a pediatrician.. possibly a neuro psych, or a kids psychiatrist. Any testing you can do OUTside the school the better for you and your child.My son was never dx with ADHD but has the behaviors--some times. He's had many dx's. But now it has come down to Bipolar and High functioning autism, and some minor dx's that go along with the other 2. My son in inattentive---but only at school(anxiety) He is hyper----sometimes (mania). My son is never consistent in anything he does.
What does your child do that is aggressive? And what triggers these episodes?
my son has ADHD also,he is not 4 yet.he is a lot like your son,his 2 main problems are the lack of attention span and he has no sense of danger to himself or others.he is only aggressive to his sister.i am waiting to have him testd for bipolar as adviced to me by oldermum.he is not on any meds as british doctors refuse to medicate until 5/6 year old.
there is a lot of alternatives,we are trying homeopathy,behavior therapy,play therapy and parenting classes for us.we want to try everything.try to adress the sleep problem first,we found our ds less agressive since we managed to get him to sleep.we are using melatonin but there is other meds that can help.
Thanks. So, the clinical social worker and school psychologist both say that he is ADHD- Hyperactivity and Impulsivity type, but refer me to the pediatrician for the meds. They have both diagnosed him with ADHD. Would I see a neurologist in addition to the pediatrician then to help with an actual diagnosis? The comment about "early bi polar" is something that I have heard a few times. During his pre-kdg screening, he had one of his violent outbursts and they asked me to leave- I cried and refused and said that I had to see someone- The woman (psychologist assistant) told me that what she observed appeared to be bipolar and encouraged us to get help- we sought out occupational therapy for sensory integaration at 3.5 yrs old and it helped for awhile. But, now- problems seem much worse- My big concern is the aggressive behavior and the fact that he does not realize or understand he hurts anyone. He is not an evil or malicious kid- honestly, he has no idea that he becomes rough. So, basically, I should see a neuro specialist in addition or in place of the pediatrician?I don't know much autism at all but if he's not aware he's hurting anyone it sounds like maybe something besides bipolar. Oldermom will probably be able to tell you better. But yes, don't do any meds and don't do them through the ped. Pretend like the school social worker's and school psychologist never tested him and start over with a neuropsych if possible and if you can't find one of those in a reasonable amount of time then get a pediatric psychiatrist who is board certified.YES! A clinical social worker and psycologist from school aren't usually very trustworthy. Stimulants can trigger other problems. Make sure he has ADHD before you medicate for it. The pediatrician totally missed the autism in my son as did everyone at school and a Psychiatrist. They had no idea which tests to run. I'd go with the NeuroPsych. You will probably be on a long waiting list. People know they're good. But the wait is way worth it. A NeuroPsych is NOT the same thing as a Neurologist. Neurologists usually refer to NeuroPsychs for the type of testing that will best diagnose your child. My son was VERY aggressive in toddlerhood and had serious speech and sensory issues and is very mild mannered now. Autistic kids, even very bright ones, often don't "get it." But it could also be early onset bipolar and, either way, stimulants are bad for both. It sounds like more than ADHD, and I wouldn't go the meds route until you're sure of what you're dealing with. We had two wrong dx. (ADHD/ODD and early onset bipolar). My kid was put on twelve wrong meds. It's not easy, but the more proactive you are about testing the sooner you'll get the correct answer. Hate to say it, but schools blame almost all difficult behavior on ADHD. It's like they don't know that there are other causes of poor behavior. They told me my kid was ADHD--it's nuts. Don't be scared. Everything can get better, but you have to make sure your kid is in good hands. Good luck. OlderMom38845.6282407407NO! He is not mad at all. He is just over stimulated and excited. Plus, he has no idea that he is being rough. And, he does not know "why" he does it and I believe him when he says that... He gets even more frustrated with me when I keep pushing him why, why, why? And, the after school club says that he does it, gets put in a timeout against the school wall after being told of his poor choice/ behavior and then goes back and does it again. He has had sensory problems in the past and saw an OT for awhile. Problems were better, but now, they are worse with the agression. I am currently researching neuropsychs in the area since everyone is directing me toward that route... And, I am requesting help for behavioral classes/ group therapy under another topic too... I really appreciate everyone's willingness to help... a few days ago- I was FRANCTIC but I am dealing with this all much better- SO THANK YOU EVERYONE!I am in the process of finding a neuropsych- this site has been great- thru the help of everyone here- I cancelled my apt on Saturday with the pediatrician and have been researching neuropsychs- thank you everyone. Boy, they sure are hard to find- at this point, I have found 1 and am waiting for a referral from a friend too... And, the good news is that the one I found will bill under "medical" and not "mental" so my insurance company will cover it... But, still need to get the other name...
momw3kids- Jimmy is a very restless sleeper, talks in his sleep, is constantly moving and grinds his teeth terribly- maybe these are some signs too! And, I know his diet needs improvement. I will research the website- Thanks!!!
Those are some of the symptoms my son had --- which clued me that it may be sleep apnea. the constantly moving, grinding his teeth, stops breathing, slight snorer, and sometimes pees in his bed. Which is why i researched kids and sleep apnea. His sleep disorder doctor is great.ddietmeyer ----- Your son also sounds just like my son. (he is 5 1/2) --- same things with sticks, rocks, etc --- he has to touch people or hit them or push them --- not in anger ---just in playing etc. I have posted in other subjects on here --- so i feel like i am duplicating the same replies. Anyhow I am researching everyting and anything. My son just had a sleep study done --- he has enlarged tonsils and he was found to have sleep apnea --- He stopped breathing 28 times the night of the study and slept restless. Next step is having his tonsils removed which may or may not help his behavior. So we just take it one day at a time. My son is in trouble at school (frequent calls from principal) and at his aftercare program too. (he is in Kindergarten) I am hoping this is the answer to my prayers but ya never know. But it helps to know that we are not alone that other people are struggling with finding an answer too. And that our kids have similar things going on---- maybe reading other peoples replies we will help find the answers. We parents know our kids better than the doctors so it is up to us to research and not rely on what schools etc think it is. DDIETMEYER --- me again --- I meant to say --- look up on the internet www.childrens-specialized.org/ it is Childrens Specialized Hospital -- they have a lot of outpatient programs. They are great with the kids. They have many locations so be sure to look up how to contact them. I have been in a few programs with my 9 year old daughter and some parent workshops. My son is waiting for an opening to see a neuropsychologist. This is what i meant to put in my reply above. Hope it helps. (we live in NJ but I know there are other ones) momw3kids38848.3313310185Especially because he has some physical symptoms too, I would look for nutrients and things that help the pattern of symptoms he has. There are a lot of nutritional deficiencies that can cause both physical and mental/emotional symptoms. Some people need much larger amounts than average of some nutrients. B vitamin deficiency can be linked to addiction, so it's possible your family needs more B vitamins than average. Omega-3 deficiency has a variety of mental symptoms as well as physical symptoms.
I think it's a good idea to make sure the person is getting good amounts of all the important nutrients, and try all the safe, alternative therapies, before trying drugs.
There's some info on alternative therapies on
http://borntoexplore.org/alternatives.htm
(or is it alternative without the s?)
There's a book that comes to mind. I think it's by Michael Lyon, and may have a title like "Healing ADD" (there are several books by different authors with that same title). The idea behind the book is that if you treat all the physical symptoms and various specific problems that the person has, that maybe there will be nothing left to treat. If they're miserable due to stomach aches etc. then you can't see how they would be behaving if they were healthy.
I agree with seeing a NeuroPsych. They do much more intensive testing than social workers or regular Psycologists. My son went for twelve hours, in two hour increments. He'd been repeatedly misdiagnosed, so we were very frustrated. Frankly, before I tried meds or alternatives (which can also affect anyone in a negative way) I'd get a total evaluation to make sure that you're medicating the right disorder. You can find NeuroPsychs in University and Children's Hospitals. IMO they are work ten of most other professionals. The next best are Child Psychiatrists (with the MD). If he is aggressive that is a red flag for other disorders beyond ADHD and Id want to check it out. Good luck :)well said Older