More Defiant | ADHD Information

Jillette, I have often thought that our daughters have a lot of similarities. Recently I was listening to a recording of a presentation of the ADHD conference they had last October, and one presenter summed up a great kernal of truth for me: Rules minus Relationship equals Rebellion. I don't have any great advice for you since I also have trouble controlling my own dd.

Also, a great book to read is The Explosive Child by Ross Greene. I read that when dd was 2. I think I should re-read it. I think I let my expectations get too high for dd (like acting her age), then I get frustrated when she shows bad behavior.

I can't remember whether you have gotten a diagnosis for her or not. If not, I would say find out what you are dealing with. That is a giant step in the right direction, IMHO.

Hi, My son is the same way. I was informed by the school psychologist she thought my son could be bipolar. He was diagnosed with ADHD combined type and ODD. When I brought up that idea to the Psychiatrist he smiled and shook his head and said no way.

But If you go by what oldermom says my son does have bipolar disorder. He is on concerta and tenex. He does pretty well but still has an occasional "outburst" He is very defiant never a follower always a leader. He is so difficult I am almost bald from pulling my hair out.

I don't know what he is anymore, autistic, adhd, odd, ocd, sid, bipolar everything or maybe nothing. Maybe he is normal and it's just ME. Sometimes I don't know if it even matters what his diagnosis is anymore. He is who he is and I love him and he probably will be the death of me

good luck-sincerely

A School Psycologist isn't competent to diagnose or NOT diagnose ADHD, let alone bipolar. You'd need a good Child Psychiatrist. I think parents know when there's something "more" going on, and some just don't want to face it. I'm not saying YOU don't (either of you), but we just trust professionals to know what they're doing. If I'd listened to our school Psycologist, my son had nothing at all--not even ADHD. It is my opinion that this child will not improve until she is re-evaluated by another, more credentialed professional. Basically, the same poster is saying the same thing over and over again. ADHD meds aren't helping. ODD interventions (behavioral mod) isn't helping. Likely that's because it's not them. Many professionals, and you can see this on the autism board, just refuse to diagnose beyond ADHD and keep giving kids stims, even when they are not only not working, but could make the child worse? Why? We have no idea. Maybe they don't want to deal with freaking out parents or maybe because, unless they are the doctor Psychiatrists or NeuroPsychs they truly have no clue about other disorders. At any rate, if you don't find your child responding to treatment it is always a good idea to seek another, better opinion from somebody with more experience in ALL disorders, and (heavens) never trust a SD to diagnose anything. The best and brightest don't work for the schools. Yes, the price is right, but ya get what ya pay for too. OlderMom38884.5890509259

Jill,

Have you ever tried any alternatives along with the meds? It could be the meds making her crabby (my son got pretty crabby on the meds in the ritalin family as well as strattera). He is doing better with Adderall but I also give him 3 Omega +joy, vitamin E...and magnesium ( someone told me this was a natural calmer)...I think the omega 3s have help him ..he has not been crabby in about a month, ... if you want to give alternative it is important to check with the doctors...mine said said it was ok .... she really did not know much about the alternative route

joemom38884.3753472222

Jillette, has this child ever seen a Child Psychiatrist (with the mD) and if so, I'd seek a second opinion to see if she has a mood disorder? ODD is a symptom of other disorders. IMO you do her a disservice not to see if she possibly has a mood disorder that is making her act this way. Concerta would not help her; it would make her worse. I have some links you may want to check, especially if you have any sort of mood problems or substance abuse on either side of the family. ODD is not a very useful diagnosis, as it just means "defiant child" and is common in every childhood disorder. Since the Concerta isn't calming her down, it likely isn't ADHD. Whatever you decide to do, good luck. Here are links if you wish to check further into other possibilities. Good days/bad days are not ADHD. ADHD kids are ADHD kids all the time. Good days/bad days are mood disorders (a child's way of cycling, which isn't the way adults do it). She isnt improving because, imo, she is misdiagnosed.

www.bpkids.org

www.conductdisorders.com

www.bpchildresearch.org

My daughter has been more defiant as of late and the resistance is killing and wearing me down. Everyday she has been having meltdowns even more and wants what she wants and will tantrum until she gets it. I usually let her go and do not give in but let me tell the screaming is enough to piss off a saint. I did pick up a book from the library today actually two of them, one the defiant child to help. I just do not know if it is her meds Concerta or just her Oppositional defiancy coming into play. I am not thinking it is the meds for she has been on it for a month now and it just started. She is rigid and unbending and when she is doing something she has her own agenda and will only listen when she is good and ready. I have been setting a timer telling her when time is up and when it goes off I hear "I am not ready yet" then I physically drag her away. She does hyper focus a lot all of this I shared earlier today with the nurse at her pediatritions office I am waiting a call back and from the psychologist too.

Could she have something else going on is my question or is it the ODD showing its ugly head? I did recently post a similar post but the defiancy is getting worse.

Older Mom I don't think that it is fair to say that a school psychologist isn't competent. They are just under stricter guidelines due to state regulations. I do agree with you that psychiatrist would be the best choice for diagnosing ad/hd. One that looks a the whole picture and does tests to determine all possiblilities. Our doctor did blood work, qeeg, and a few other things before determining ad/hd.Chid Psycologists from SD's are notoriously awful and this one doesn't sound like he knows anything about bipolar disorder in kids. We've been through a few child psycologists and got nowhere with the school district. In general, school districts have their own agendas and aren't good diagnosticians. There are no blood tests or any other definitive tests for ADHD or any disorders--they are all dependent on observation, performance testing, family history and how well the treatment works.The more performance testing and observation, the more accurate the diagnosis--NeuroPsychs do A LOT of testing and tend to do a pretty good job, although every diagnosis is a crapshoot. You, as the mom, have to see if the diagnosis fits or if it seems like it doesn't fit--and it's know if it's time to keep move on. It's tiring to keep going for evaluations, but that's often the only way to find out what's really going on with a child before the teen years hit and it's too late. A few doctors claim they can "find" certain disorders, but there is no proof that any of these disorders, including ADHD, can be seen on a screen or in the blood, and most medical personel agree that it's still a big mystery as to what causes it, and other things that we know exist, but just can't see. OlderMom38884.7220833333

She was diagnosed by a clinical psychologist not a psychiatrist. I started the Book the explosive child and think he met my child in a past life for he describes her so well it is scary.

When he returns my call the psychologist I may request more testing to be sure. Although reading the explosive child explains it that it is probibly the ODD more coming out. thanks everyone.

[QUOTE=Urirknme]I posted something similiar about my son.. I thought it might be puberty.. but it seems to me that my son has been more defiant and moody since upping his concerta from 36mg to 54.. I didnt catch on at first.. thinking puberty.. but i am really starting to think it might be the meds.. I dont think its ODD with my son..He gets very moody.. he tells me.. Mom I am so angry and I dont know why..I have checked out the ODD site and he just doesnt have all those symptoms.. I would really have your daughter checked again.. as I am having my son.[/QUOTE]

I agree that the meds can sometimes make a child angry or grumpy...my son was grumpy on strattera or concerta ( not sure what one for sure because he took both) we switched meds to a different stim and he is much happier

.IMac38944.8754861111.IMac38944.8757060185

Older Mom... there are blood tests that can be done to determine "symptons" that can contribute to ad/hd and other related conditions. I know because my son's doctor ordered the tests and I saw the results. Can't argue with results.

There is are QEEG tests used that are 90% accurate in helping to identify ad/hd. I know because my son spent 2 hours doing these tests with wires hooked to his head,and I have my pocket book to show for it. My ex had similar tests performed. Why you keep saying there isn't I will never understand? I've also shared this in other posts after you questioned me. The QEEG is relatively new to my understanding,but all the same has amazingly accurate results and informative, objective results. I saw the detailed report. I spent many hours with with psychiatrists and peditricians to determine what was in the best interest of my child. I know that I may be more fortunate to have found my son's doctor than some are. We lucked into an appointment with him as he is a well respected doctor in a large suburban community.We happened to call on a day that he had just received a cancellation. All the other doctors I called had waiting lists for several months. My son initially saw him because he was being hurtful to others and was extremely active. He is highly respected in the research field as he conducts research at his center and still maintains a high patient following.

And by the way Phsychiatrist are MD's. This has been brought up on previous posts by several of us and you seem to slide right over this. I have several friends that are MD's/phsychitrists. They don't all work in private practices grant you, but they are MD's. Some chose to work in school districts. Some are professors in major universities. All have MD behind their name.

Yes, genes can play a part as well, I agree . School psychologists are not under the school district agendas. They work within a district but have state guidelines to follow the law and keep their credentials just as doctors in private practice have to. I know this because I'm part of a school district that is highly respected within our state and I have worked with many competent psychologists in the district. I may not have always agreed with some of their results when it came to students of mine but they are just reporting what they see and evaluate. Just as MD's do in the private sector. Do I always agree with MD's no? My brother is a MD and I don't always agree with his views etc... but I know that he is competent and bases his findings on the studies that he spent many years delving into as well as on-going training that is required of him to maintain his license.

As far as the medical field is concerned there will always be differences of opinions as there is obviously differences with "moms" on this issue. In my opinion we should share the options out there for all new parents to this forum. Every parent has to do what they feel is just and right for their child. I did a lot of research and talked with many professionals and friends before deciding which route to go for my son. I had to rely on my gut instincts as a mom that I was chosing the professional that was qualified to help determine my son's problems. I was fortunate to have insurance that allowed the doctors to do tests and evaluations on my son. Many people don't have the same advantages. We need to share what worked for our families and allow the parents coming on this posts to make the right choice for their children and family. In some cases a school psychologist might be the only option. And yes some are "competent" and some are less helpful. Just as some MD's are "competent" and some are less helpful.

What are QEEG tests? I live in Canada and they may not be available here yet.

i was fighting with jude all the time and he is only 4 .it was wearing me down.i ignored the advice of the psychologist and i decided to relax more and pick my fights.

i do not let him rule the roost but i am getting him to do what i want in a sneaky,fun way and i don't get angry as much.

it worked for us althought he still has meltdowns not as much as he used to

I posted something similiar about my son.. I thought it might be puberty.. but it seems to me that my son has been more defiant and moody since upping his concerta from 36mg to 54.. I didnt catch on at first.. thinking puberty.. but i am really starting to think it might be the meds.. I dont think its ODD with my son..He gets very moody.. he tells me.. Mom I am so angry and I dont know why..I have checked out the ODD site and he just doesnt have all those symptoms.. I would really have your daughter checked again.. as I am having my son.We are going through a bad spell here too... I read The Defiant Child
about every six months (I like the older version more) and it helps me
keep perspective. I think that expectations have a lot to do with it, like
cr12345mr said. One thing that I have to keep in mind, and I think this
could be the case with a lot of our kids, is that my son's intellectual
abilities are a good year or two ahead, and his social skills are at least a
year behind. So this pre-first grader can read at a fourth grade level, but
sucks his thumb and tantrums. He can count well into the thousands
(hyper focusing) but cannot even begin to tell time. I too have to forcibly
move him often, especially in the mornings, and I can't understand why
doesn't he get it?!? What could he possibly be gaining from this behavior?
I feel your frustration, and the only hope I have is that it is really getting a
tiny bit better every month or two, it is just going to take a lot longer for
him to mature than a "normal" kid would. Sigh.

Jillette, I think you and my bro must have the same doc.

Take care of yourself is what I'm often reminded to do(which I'm not always good at doing). I've been told by many that I won't be any good for my son if I don't take care of myself. So I guess I will pass on this same advice to you.

Smiles

Thanks Imac. I live in the province Ontario though. Maybe I can find it here, I don't think my son's doctor would refer us though. He said that a spectrogram test doesn't help determine ADHD. I think it's similar.I didn't realize this was Canada. Sorry. I stick with thinking this kid, if in the US, would be diagnosed with more than ADHD and sincerely hope the child gets diagnosed and helped soon. I'm always amazed when a professional keeps using same diagnosis, methods and meds over and over again, no matter how long the treatment doesn't work. THAT happens in the US too, sadly. Not all Psychiatrists are good, unfortunately. In the US, if one is not helping, you can switch to another. I had a friend in Ontario who was stuck with the same horrible Psychiatrist. He did diagnose bipolar (she had it and so did her older son), but he wouldn't prescribe the right meds, and it drove her nuts and her son did not improve. If your child isn't getting helped, it makes sense to move on to another one, but I know you can't just do that in Canada. However, whoever is in charge of this child, it's been a long time, and the child is not improving. If possible, it's time to move on. I'm not sure how it works in Canada, but I know it's a lot harder to do this. I'm still sure that one day this child will find out more is there than ADHD. I hope I'm wrong, but I doubt it. MomWI38887.1698958333 I think my son does have ADHD. His ritalin works fine. I just want to be sure. I would hate to have him on meds only to find out years later that he was reacting to major food intolerances or had another disorder.I'm sorry, lovemyboy. I was talking to Jillette :) If Ritalin works fine, then, yeah, probably ADHD, but "leave no stone unturned" is my motto (grin). I know I push parents a lot, but I'm a mom of five, my kids are older, and I've learned the different disorders when my son was misdiagnosed with them. I worry about the kids who seem to be misdiagnosed, like my son :) Misdiagnosed chilren become angry, defiant, bitter, often drug using misdiagnosed teens. Unfortunately, I had one of THAT too, and I hope to spare any child or parent that fate. My daughter had probably undiagnosed ADHD and maddeningly undiagnosed LD problems, and I didn't know where to go to have her tested as the school wouldn't help. I had never heard of a NeuroPsych or I would have taken her, and pronto. I never knew about School Advocates. Nobody told me. I never realized that ODD isn't really a disorder, but a symptom or I would have disregarded my son's first ADHD/ODD dx. and gone on to a more credentialed professional. Parenting is a learning process. Had i known, I would have had ammo to fight for services at school and perhaps her self-esteem would have been better. As it was, she self-medicated, cut herself, and was on parole twice. I'm lucky she straightened out at 19. All this because of wrong diagnoses...and I can almost spot them here. Many kids are walking timebombs, taking stims, being called ADHD, when it's more, and parents don't know where to go for additional help. Since I've run the gamut, I try to tell them and the parents can do it (can't hurt) or walk away from it, until they can't anymore because the kid is a mess. Don't mean to sound bossy, but I learned a lot the hard way. I can spot bipolar and Aspergers a mile away. MomWI38887.2362962963.IMac38944.8763888889

Blood Test: We had a 6 hour glucose tolerance test done (blood drawn every hour for 6 hours after fasting). While it does not diagnose ad/hd it does help the psychiatrist look at the whole picture. We discovered that our son showed signs of reactive hypoglycemia and the doctor recommended that we work with a nutritionist as well as medicate (focalin xr). He feels that diet and medicine works hand and hand for some children. We've seen our son make great strides since doing both. He is doing very well.

What is a QEEG?: It stands for quanatative electrocephalography (sp). It is a safe non invasive test that analyzes brain waves to determine presence of ad/hd. It is used along with medical examination, medical history, and rating scales. It is said to be a 90-94% accurate assessment. My understanding when we did this with our son was that his brain waves were compared to a set group of children in his age group that had ad/hd and a set group of children that were deemed not to have ad/hd. We were given a detailed report following the 1-2 hour test.

I don't claim to be an expert in any of this. All the above was used to help us with our son. All I can say is that we thank God daily that this doctor was thourough (sp) and didn't just say medicate right off the bat. He took time to be with our son and observe for himself as well as listen to us and our observations. He also took the schools observations into play.

Knock on wood things have been going very well for over 3 months since starting the med and nutritional changes in diet.

.IMac38944.8760416667.IMac38944.8762037037

To IMac: Rules - Relationship = Rebellion

The presenter was trying to say that if you have a relationship with your child where you are fighting all the time, the child isn't going to want to follow any of your rules and in fact, rebel against them. He was saying that if you can improve your relationship with your child, s/he is going to be more willing to cooperate with you. In this particular presentation, he was teaching about behavior modification systems, which take a more proactive approach to misbehavior. Setting up the child's environment to facilitate success, perhaps adding in a token economy to reward the child for good behavior. It was more about focusing on the good behaviors and trying to minimize the bad behaviors. Focusing on the good behaviors helps heal the relationship and hopefully minimize the chances of rebellion. That's it in a nutshell. I would really like to take a parent training course to learn more about this approach. I know for sure that constantly punishing my dd for unacceptable behavior doesn't really work for us. The house is becoming a battleground.

4myson, I was wondering what the blood tests are that you are talking about, I am curious of this for my son, and I work in a laboratory and never have had any such test ordered I would like to know if you dont mind so I can suggest it to my sons doctor and so I can look them up at work and see what they are, and who knows gets some opinions from the family practice docs I work with. I would like to suggest it or see what our Psychiatrist says at his next appt. In the blood tests do you know what they tested for and what determinations they were able to make off of them. We had a MRI done a while ago to rule out tumors but we have done nothing else. Also are there blood tests that anyone knows of for help diagnosing bipolar.

The other tests with the wires to his brain do you know what they were looking for in those and what they can determine from them too.

Thanks alot

Jillette,

Has your daughter ever tried any of the stims in the amphetamine group? If not, this may be an option for you.

I am glad that you are having a better day.

jillette...diabetes runs in our family on both sides...neither my ex husband or I have it but I would bet if my ex did this blood work would find that he has reactive hypoglycemia as well. He has many of the same characteristics that my son demonstrates. It never hurts to look into this, I never would of thought of it if the psychiatrist hadn't recommended it. We even have a great peditrician and he even said that it was a great call on the psy. part.

I'm not sure if pricking the finger will show you exactly what the doctor would be looking for. Maybe, but not sure. I know that the test results showed us how our son's sugar level dropped drastically at certain times after fasting. His level was normal after the first draw and then drastically dropped then went back up etc... back.

Goodluck with whatever you decide to do. Parenting sure can be a roller coaster when it comes to our children's health.

No you are correct a simple finger stick will only give you a reading for now the bloodwork needed is the H1C Hemoglobin which gives you the average of 3 months combined. That is what they do to see if you are where you should be. As for mine do not ask I got the lecture last visit and not enough time for me the doctor says is not an excuse.the blood test? I never thought of that for that is something I should look into for diabetes runs strong in my family. My mother had it, I have it since I was 17, and my brother has it and we are all insulin dependent. I am going to see if she would let me prick her finger to test her but will not push.[QUOTE=joemom]

Jillette,

Has your daughter ever tried any of the stims in the amphetamine group? If not, this may be an option for you.

I am glad that you are having a better day.

[/QUOTE]

*No, he wants to give the Concerta more time first before switching her again. Actually if we switch again I liked the Ritalin LA better we only changed it for the next dose up was too high for her and the current too low why the concerta. with the Ritalin never a rebound.

As for the med I did ask the doctor it that was causing the behavior and I was told to give it more time. She has only been on the dose for 1 month now and now i am wondering for today she did not want to take them and being a saturday I let it go and she has been happy as a clam all day doing fine moving from activity to activity.