"Blinks" versus "Absence Seizures" | ADHD Information

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NoTellin
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Posts: 846 Posted: 03 July 2006 at 4:27pm | IP Logged Report Post Quote NoTellin IMac, I am interested in your comment about "brain blinks /daydreaming/ tuning out." My son does this but I had not really connected it with ADHD, mainly because my mother does it on a regular basis. I just figured, oh, too bad he inherited that. This behavior is associated with ADHD? By brain blinks do you mean that they appear to just go offline? calicorose38902.3536342593 calicorose
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Posts: 401 Posted: 03 July 2006 at 6:48pm | IP Logged Quote calicorose NoTellin, it's me again!  My son had the brain blinks/daydreaming/tuning out, and for him, they turned out to be absence seizures.  They are not uncommon in childhood early adolescence, can ocurr many times during the day, and are often confused with ADHD in the classroom and at home, because they appear to be daydreaming and not paying attention.  My son was having them for a good amount of time before I really realized he was totally gone for a couple of moments, not just tuning out or not paying attention.  Most individuals grow out of it in the teens, but perhaps your mother has something like this.  Does she just stop what she is doing, then pick back up as if nothing happened?  The one real good one I saw with my son, we were talking, face to face, and mid sentence, he just zoned out for about 20 seconds.  He was just still, and staring into space.  He was totally gone.  But not the thrashing or anything, very still.  If I were not looking, i'd miss it, then he just started talking again, "huh?  What mom?"  That's a typical thing for him to say!  Absence seizures are not associated with ADHD at all, but can look a lot like it, because they are really missing a lot of information during the time they are out, and appear to not be paying attention.

Please look into this possiblity, and go for the appropriate testing if you think this might the issue for both your mom and your son.  My son had an EEG, and an MRI done. I had made arrangements for the school bus, as no one thought it a good idea he ride his bike that far, and possibly have one during that time.  Adults don't want to be driving and having one either.  It would be a good idea to look into it further, for safety.  

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Posts: 846 Posted: 03 July 2006 at 8:05pm | IP Logged Report Post Quote NoTellin Wow, calicorose, my son does this. Completely gone for several seconds, and doesn't know he's doing it. I looked it up, and it's also called petit mal seizure also. But I have only seen it three times. The school psychologist saw it once and just went off on some over-pathologizing trip that made me think she might need therapy. And I think the first grade teacher saw it. From what I read, it needs to be happening more often to be addressed. I'll be keeping an eye out and I'll talk to the second grade teacher when school starts.

Edited by NoTellin on 03 July 2006 at 8:58pm calicorose38902.3540856481 calicorose
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Posts: 403 Posted: 03 July 2006 at 9:47pm | IP Logged Quote calicorose NoTellin, they don't know what causes it, often.  How old is your son? Most children grow out of it, but I would be concerned if your mom has it too. There might be a genetic disposition to them.  Best to get another evaluation just for this to try to find out exactly what's going on. It's not normal, or an expected part of ADHD.

Oh, and there are the absence seizures, and there are a kind of "seizure-like" activity that is more emotionally or psychologically based, and comes on more in moments of stress, and I believe is harder to diagnose.  Oftentimes, there is no cause or reason found.  My dog started having seizures also about the same time, and I knew just what my son was doing when I saw him straight on, from the internet research I had done on seizure information for my dog.  Talk about a stressfull time!  I was looking into mold in my home, and radon, and all that stuff.  Nothing found, thank goodnes!  Just the way it is.  My son hasn't had any more since he was done with 12, that I have noticed.  He was on Adderall at the time, and there was some speculation by his docs that it might have had a connection, and they took him off of the stims.

You might inform your school psychologist about them too, she sounds uninformed, and not taking it seriously. 

Let me know what you think.  I've not met anyone else with these.  Maybe we can start another thread, as this is taking way off the topic of the original poster.
calicorose38902.3543171296I copied and pasted from the thread on "Alternatives," but they only let me do this much.  Will try later to get the rest over here. IMac
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Posts: 1512 Posted: 04 July 2006 at 12:06am | IP Logged Report Post Quote IMac NoTellin wrote:
This behavior is associated with ADHD? By brain blinks do you mean that they appear to just go offline?

Yes and the phrase "appear to just go offline" is a great description. I used to "daydream" so heavily I would "come to" with a physical jerk when I realized I had gone offline; sort of like someone who dozes off will wake with a start. And yes, it is very likely that Grandma does the same thing as her grandson; isn't genetics interesting?
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Posts: 1512 Posted: 04 July 2006 at 12:11am | IP Logged Report Post Quote IMac calicorose wrote:
NoTellin, it's me again!  My son had the brain blinks/daydreaming/tuning out, and for him, they turned out to be absence seizures.

Calicorose, I seem to remember you describing how shaking didn't bring him back to earth, so to speak. That is not what I and others who have ADHD mean when we say brain blink.

There are several discussions about Adhd and Blinks on Add Forums. Here is a link to one article we discussed.

http://adhd.kids.tripod.com/page5.html

Practical Information and Advice: An Article Explaining Why It Seems They're Not Listening

Blinks: A Phenomenon of Distractibility in Attention Deficit Disorder
by James Reisinger, MBA, CLU, CFP, ADD

Where do ADDers go when they space out and why can't they just say, "I'll think about that later?" I offer an answer to this question and a glimpse inside the head of a person with ADD. My hope is that this insight may spark a new look at the existing research and prompt confirming studies. I named this peculiar experience a "blink," an identifiable characteristic that distinguishes the blink phenomenon as an experience unique to ADDers. Others with ADD have called them "skips," "thoughts racing," "spacing out," "tune outs," "static," "thoughts," or "gaps," because the person skips over, tunes out, or has gaps in awareness of events going on around them.

A blink occurs as the ADDers attention involuntarily shifts focus from what is relevant to something irrelevant. This shift from a 'local" situation (such as talking, reading, or working) to some other internal mental content (e.g., a thought, picture memory, or plan) blocks the local information.

People blink their eyelids without noticing the moment of darkness. A "lid closing" during a sneeze is noticeable, more so if driving or doing some action (try keeping your eyes open the next time you sneeze). If a deaf student sat in a lecture and closed his eyes for a few seconds or minutes, it would reduce what he could learn.


Edited by IMac on 04 July 2006 at 12:24am oldtimer
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Posts: 1494 Posted: 04 July 2006 at 6:24am | IP Logged Report Post Quote oldtimer Absence seizures disappear in 80% of cases at around adult hood. Mine did. I am a absence seizure free patient almost 20yrs now. I still struggle with spd though. I did therapies in childhood. Allergie testing on Daniel was done on a Allergie center. I had him put on depakote cause I believe he has these even though his eeg showed non. What a help it has made. His healthier eating also helps. His vitamins also have helped. He is doing evening prim rose oil. He can only eat Salmon. White fish he dislikes/allergie food also.

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Posts: 407 Posted: 04 July 2006 at 8:20am | IP Logged Quote calicorose

This seems to be an interesting topic with more discussion to follow.  I will start another thread for anyone interested, rather than taking over the original poster's intent here.  I have posted a thread in "Parents of ........



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Imac, now, when you have a "blink" can you be aroused out of it?  My son, you are right, could not be.  Just have to let it pass till it's done.

I bring up absence seizures, I know they are different from "blinks", but they are very similar, and the absence seizures can be mistaken in the classroom (or at home) for innattentive ADHD.  Yes, they are two totally different causes.  But, if NoTellin's son and mother are having this type of seizure, rather than blinks, it would be very important to know.   

Blinks are associated with ADHD.  Absence seizures are not part of ADHD, but can be mistaken for it. 

Cal, if you mom has these kinds of episodes and so does your son, then you're probably looking at something hereditary.  Ask for a referral to a neurologist, tell the neuro what you've been seeing and ask for an EEG.  It will measure brain waves awake and asleep and they'll be able to nail down what the problem is. 

I have juvenile myoclonic epilepsy and the zone outs were noticed when I was in kindergarten (1963).  We got a basic dx of epilepsy and I started taking meds and when I started puberty I started having grand mal siezures (now they call them generalized tonic/clonic).   My little sister started having siezures when she was 5 and them outgrew them.  My older sister started having horrible headaches when she started college and had an EEG which discoverd that she had an abnormal brain wave pattern but nothing major enough to cause siezures.  When she got the stress of college under control, the headaches stopped.  We never got any kind of info on past family members with problems because both sets of grandparents associated epilepsy with insanity and were very offended at the suggestion that my siezures might be "their fault." 

I wasn't siezure free for a year until I was 28, when I finally got my drivers license.  I've had siezures since then, but I'm under control with meds.  Last siezure I had was 2 1/2 years ago.  I hope this helps and if you have any questions, just post them or pm me.
IMac38944.8450462963IMac38944.8440046296IMac38944.8447106481

Heavy blinking is part of this. These seizures are what cause the attention issue. I had to use anti seizure drug , attention medacine, private LD schooling.Back then Se was way different all SE kids were put into Self contained class. This type is better though cause of haveing teacher aids. They also design the lessons to what each individual child needs. The classes are smaller also. The one Daniel will be with this year will have only 5 kids in it. The SE director is how I got this for him. RN

My son cannot be brought back to the real world without a serious long shake. Finger snapping and callling his name do not work. But I have only seen this twice myself. Also, according to my husband he continues to do normal things, like walking. This is really infrequent. I'm thinking about giving the 2nd grade teacher a description of absent/petit mal seizures and asking her to call me if she sees anything fitting the description. I'd really feel odd going to the ped and saying that I've seen this twice in 7 years. The school psych saw it once and my husband saw it once, while he was walking to the car. Does this seem like a reasonable approach?

NoTellin, from what I understand, the child will STOP completely whatever he or she is doing while having an absence seizure. The first time I actually saw and realized what was ocurring, thank goodness my son had a scheduled yearly exam the next day with his ped.  Or I would have made an appointment ASAP.  I wouldn't feel a bit odd about only seeing it twice to get it checked out.  But, I'm not too laid back about things like that.    He will probably be in line for an EEG.  I would just want to make sure he was safe, like riding his bike or any other sports or activities he might be involved in. 

 Does it sound like he's having absence seizures, or blinks?  The list Imac posted was a good reference for determining which they might be.       

SusieB gave some excellent advise too, since she's been through all the testing too.  I agree with her, that a visit to the neuro and an EEG is the way to go, rather than the wait and see approach.  IMHO.

Calicorose, I have to contradict you.  Often, absence szs are marked by a repetive motion or sometimes a word repeated over and over.  I used to say "summy, summy, summy," and my family referred to them as "summy spells."  Lip-smacking or some kind of facial tic are some of the more common repetitive motions.  I'll dig up some websites tomorrow if I can.  I've been through 42 years of this with docs in Chicago and Winston-Salem (Bowman Gray School of Medicine).  I've been through at least 30 EEGs in my life, blood tests to measure drug levels, clinical trials, the whole nine yards.  Since I seem to have struck on a combination of meds and basic lifestyle patterns, I don't surf the web on it. 

One thing that I have found out and this doesn't apply to absence, just grand-mal is that memory is affected at least temporarily and after a lifetime of szs the memory can be permanently degraded.  I had a sz several years ago and for two weeks after that I couldn't remember what had happened the two weeks before the sz.    Frustrating!

Also just wanted to say Imac's list is right on target!
susieb38902.8680208333IMac38944.8453703704

Susieb, you've been through the ringer with your siezures!  I am so happy for you that after all, you are doing well now.  Seizures of any order are scary and frustrating.

Actually, absence seizures can be very still and quite. This is why they go often even undetected, as it just looks like daydreaming or deep thought.  Yes, some can be accompanied by the other behaviours (automatisms) you mentioned also, which are the Complex Partial type.  My sons' were quite typical of the quiet, staring kind.  Seizures present themselves differently in different individuals. 

My dog has seizures, and even every one of hers is slightly different from the others she has.  It's weird, and scary.  She does very well with chiropractic adjustments that keep them at bay.  After she has one, her doc finds her neck "out" and then she's fine for a while.

calicorose38902.904212963My mom was able to tell something was wrong when she saw my math papers come home.  She'd see problems that weren't completed and say to herself "Susie knows that one.  I bet she had a spell at that point."  I really could have used a "mark in book" accomodation all through school.  I dreaded standardized, color-in-the bubble, tests.  I have also found that when I was active and thinking, I had fewer absences.  When this first started, the gym teacher told the my first grade teacher she wanted me to sit out gym classes because she thought I'd have an absence and get hurt.  My teacher told me and I cried.  After two weeks, the gym teacher let me back in gym class.  It was never a problem in gym class, now math class was a different story!