I can't tell (of course) what she has. Four is young. My son was also in constant motion with a speech delay and at 11 he was finally diagnoed as being PDD-NOS (atypical autism). Many professionials ruled it out with him too, but because I thought he had it (due to his language delays, SID, stimming, echoing and other things) I fought to get him services that were the same that ASD kids get. Yes, he had a multidisciplinary evaluation at 8 at an autism clinic and they said he was "too friendly" to be ASD, which really threw me, but I still thought he was on the spectrum, so I continued to push for interventions. I don't know where he'd be today without those early interventions because, although higher functioning kids are harder to diagnose so that even professionals CAN miss it, they still need ASD intervetnions. You won't know what your child has for right now. At four my son's diagnosis was only ADHD, and he also tested out of special services, so I fought to get them back for him. Your daughter DOES have traits of ASD and ADHD. All ASD kids, however, have ADHD traits, and many are more hyper than kids with ADHD. The evaluator from the autism clinic felt Lucas played appropriately with toys, and he DID that day, but he normally didn't--he'd either line them up or just try to take them apart or ignore them. My son had no imagination. Your daughter is a puzzle. My son was too! I suggest that you try to get her the same interventions for ASD that kids with the diagnosis have. That includes Speech, OT, PT and social skills (she'll probably need that down the r oad). If you can't get them from the SD, get an Advocate. They are free, and you can find them through the Dept. of Public Education. Ask for the Special Needs coordinator. "Stimming" is pretty exclusive to ASD. MY son ran the gamut of diagnoses--ADHD, then ADHD/ODD, then bipolar, and finally PDD-NOS. Since being off meds (he can't take stims) and having intensive ASD interventions from early on, he is a bright, happy kid who is doing really well. That wouldn't have happened if we'd accepted ADHD. On the PDD board I chat on, many a child with ASD was diagnosed wrong even by ped. neurologists and other specialists. It becomes more apparent as they grow up. If she doesn't have it, you haven't lost anything. You've treated her intensely for her speech and SID problems, which she probably should have whether she is ASD or ADHD. I would fight to get them and not ignore them. I'd have her re-evaluated in a year or two, and continue doing it if she continues to exhibit problems and does not improve a lot with ADHD meds. Make her school district help her. The symptoms alone can really improve with the right intervention. I"ll link you to the PDD board, in case you want to talk to folks there. They'll likely give you the same advice of me and give you a bunch of misdiagnosis stories, but they are very knowledgeable about ASD, and know the differences between ADHD and ASD (since most of their kdis were first dxd. with ADHD). Good luck!
www.autism-pdd.net/forum/forum_topics.asp?...
MomWI38932.1805787037
Thank you for reading my post -
I am hoping anyone can respond to me and tell me what you think... I have been on such a journy with my four year old little girl.
I know without a doubt she is a sensory seeker. She is very much on the go. Anyone who meets her casually remarks about her hyper-activity. She is a very happy kid that never stops. She is in constant motion. She fidgets, squirms, bounces off walls and loves to run and crashes into things. I get overwhelmed just sitting back watching her all day.
We have gone down the autism path only because she has a repetitive movement she makes with her hands. When she gets over stimulated or excited she will wiggle her fingers and clench her teeth at the same time. I was told by a ped. neuro. that this movement is "auto-stimulatory behavior." I thought these movements where only associated with autism spectrum disorders. I realize now that not all kids with stims are autistic. Her ped. neuro. who specializes in autism feels she is not autistic. Over the evaluation process he noted she was very social, used excellent eye contact, played with toys in the correct manner and had the abitlity to pretend. He mentioned sensory processing disorder and ever since, I have been non stop with the research.
I found it interesting that there is a link between ADHD and sensory dysfunction. My daughters natural father has a strong history of ADHD in his family. He probably had it himself but he was never diagosed. She has never had any contact with him or his family. I always wondered if ADHD was playing a part in her behaviors but I figured she was on the ASD spectrum because she wiggled her fingers and had a language delay.
I am so interested to know if anyone knows kids with ADHD that wiggle or "stim?" Also, do kids with ADHD have language development issues? My daughter was a late talker, she went through a phase of repeating and memorized speech. She is doing ok now but there are still problems. She is very jumbled, for example, she will say "what that is?" rather than "what is that?" Someone mentioned that what she is doing can be an audio processing problem but, that was just a friend, she was not qualified. She is scheduled to be tested for speech therapy soon as well as seeing an OT.
Anyway, other things I see in her that can be related to ADHD is constant noise - she is either in a state of constant rambling or singing:) She is very distractable. She is a tornado when it comes to toys. She will bring so many out but only play with them for a minute or two. She will ask for movies but by the time they play she is off to something new. She rarely finishes watching one. She is in time out quite a bit and it is all a big joke to her. She is upset when she sits on the "bench" but a second later she is talking about something or laughing and she does not seem phased at all - ugh. :) She is very impulsive - I feel like a broken record, I tell her "no" all the time. I understand that this can be age appropriate behavior but she seems like she is always on the chaotic side. But, all in all she is very loving and happy. I dont want to be too hard on her but I am so very worried about school. I know they will expect her to listen and sit still and I am not so sure she can do it:(
What do you think, can she be ADHD? Does this sound like anything you have been through? Any kids out there diagnosed with ADHD stim? I am so full of questions:) Thank you so much!
kdn78, how old is your daughter and at what age was she assessed?Thank you, she turned four this month and her evalution with the ped. neuro. ended a few months ago. I didnt mention this but it may help, she was also evaluated by our local school district. They mailed me a report saying although she was "very distractable" and "slightly delayed" in speech, they didnt feel like she qualified for special services. They noted her behavior will improve as her expressive language develops.
Thank you again!
.IMac38943.6236226852Hi. I think its very possible that she may well be ultimately diagnosed ADHD. I based this opinion based on my own experience with my now 13 yr old son who has been dx'd Primary inattentive, with various other co-morbid deficits.... language processing being one. What caught my eye in your post that brought back memories for me from my son's younger years is the hand/finger wiggling. My son did this also when excited.
Obviously you should not assume your daughter is ADHD based on one trait like this.....but when you combine it with multiple other observations like the traits you mention in your post, you are doing the right thing by being concerned and searching for answers and proper evaluation. BTW.....the screen the school district did is not a good enough evaluation to "rule out" anything. Remember... your daughter is young, plus many parents feel school districts aren't objective enough in their evaluations because they are biased against providing services (more cost to the district)
My 13 yr old son was your daughter's age when I really began to get concerned. From that point on it was (and is) my mission to educate myself and get him the help he needed. My son, like your daughter, was a happy, loving child. He was also a child with issues..... an auditory processing deficit, a language processing deficit, severe distractibility, low frustration tolerance, and sleep problems. He didn't present with extreme hyperactivity....... but he did have signs of it like excessive wiggling, figeting, etc. Even today at 13, he can usually control his hyperactivity....thus the dx of Primary Inattentive.
My suggestion would be to get your child private evaluations, not school district screens. Over the years I've taken my son to a private speech/language pathologist, audiologist (only specially trained audiologists can test and dx auditory processing disorders), neuro-psychologist, psychologists, and a psychiatrist. The proper diagnosis is absolutely crucial to your child's future.
My son's case is complicated because of the existence of co-morbid disorders. He presents as ADHD Primary Inattentive, but also has Generalized Anxiety, and auditory processing deficit, and mild speech/language issues. Like your child, my son's earlier language problems surfaced in the form of improper speech syntax and morphology (mixing up the sentence structure), word retrieval problems (he'd say things like "that thingy" instead of the actual word), and mild articulation issues (substituting f for th sounds, etc).
All of these things, at age 4, really fueled his frustration so he would have a pretty wide range of emotions, and he'd cry a lot easier than the average child. Age 4 is also when we really started noticing his tendency towards anxiety. It really started showing up when he'd start working with speech pathologists and he be upset if he'd answer a question wrong and actually apologize for mistakes. We didn't know it at the time, but in hindsight, this is classic anxiety.
Doubly frustrating for him, and complicating his case, is the fact that intelligence wise.....he tests in the superior IQ range. I credit his neuropsych evaluation for tipping us off to his high intelligence. Having this invaluable information had profound impact on his education because he has been able to qualify for the gifted and talented program, despite his also having ADHD and other disorders. Had we never had a full neuropych eval done on him, we would probably have never really know just how smart he was because it was being masked by his problems with attention, auditory processing, and language.
So.....stay on this path of educating yourself and getting your child the proper evaluation. Your daughter is the exact age that my son was when all this started for me. It will be a long journey for you, but WELL worth it!
Good luck! Okiemom
BTW Kdn, I also meant to add that like with your daughter, early on I also worried about autism spectrum disorder due to my son's repetitive hand motions and finger wiggling, but like your situation, professionals ruled it out.
Okiemom
Wow, thank you for all the information, I appreciate it so much.
I feel like such a mess sometimes, usually after a hard day. I really want to enjoy my time with her, especially during our last days before she goes off to preschool but sometimes I get trapped in this "mode" of over analyzing every little thing she does:) I just get worried.
Today was rough:)
Anyway, I was browsing through a lot of the posts here. This is such a wonderful site. I am seeing other things that are clicking with her, such as the sleeping issue. This has always been a rough issue with her. As a baby she would not nap unless I was pushing her in a swing or driving her in a car. She needed chaos to get tired:) Now, she does not nap at all. She will get about 9-10 hours of sleep at night but there are a couple of wake ups. She will call me in and ask me to get in her bed, once I do, she will usually go back to sleep so its not "that bad" but its still annoying:)
I do have a question about the wiggling your son did as well. When did this go away? This is a big concern of mine. It sounds pathetic but I am very worried this will single her out for teasing in school. I try and redirect her and it works but only for that moment. I must say though, she peaked with the movement last year, it has died down a bit lately.
Another question, do you think an OT can help? I am hearing mixed responses. My daughters own primary care phys. made it out to be a "hippie approach."
Sorry for all the questions -
Thanks again:)
This is just my opinion, but before I would begin looking into an ADHD diagnosis, I would first get an evaluation from an OT. You said she has sensory issues, and they really can make kids hyperactive and distracted. If it were me, I would want the sensory issues under control first, and then see what else is left. Her sensory problems will only get worse once she enters school, so it would be a good idea to get on top of this now.
She may very well have ADHD, but even if she does have ADHD, if she has sensory problems, getting them fixed, will still help a great deal over all.
It is fairly common for ADHD people to do some mild stimming behavior. We are very restless, and fidgety, and are well known for tapping feet, bouncing legs, wiggling toes, etc. Any major stimming though is really not typical of ADHD. I'm an adult with ADHD, and I still shake my foot, or wiggle my toes, especially when my meds wear off, I'm bored, or under stress. I twirl my hair a lot too.
Speech delays, although some will disagree, in my opinion, are not part of ADHD. You may see some with it. You may see some mild stuttering from the brain going faster then the mouth. You may see some pausing from an ADHD person trying to gather their thoughts and spit it out. Language delays though, may accompany ADHD for some, but are not caused from it.
Good luck!
P.S. Some schools are notorious for saying that children don't need services, when they really do. They don't want to spend the money. If you feel she needs them, and I"m assuming you do, since she was evaluated through them, get an advocate behind you on this one.
Hi. Personally, we never went the OT route because my son just didn't show enough sensory integration issues and his fine motor skills were excellent (he would draw for hours on end). Gross motor skills were OK too, although he was pretty clumsy with catching/throwing balls. To this day he is not sports oriented... prefers drawing, computers, and music. But he rode a bike early, could skate, etc...plus had no problems with swinging and spinning motions. Thus... we just didn't consult an OT.
I can't remember exactly when the finger/hand wiggling thing stopped. I never really made it an issue and drew attention to it, so I guess he just stopped it on his own over time.
The big things we had problems in preschool with were his inability to follow mult step commands and instructions. This was our first big red flag that we were dealing with either ADHD or perhaps auditory processing (in fact....we were dealing with both but didn't know it). Also...... while my son loved playing with other children, we found that in preschool....he started to break away from the groups and do a lot more alone playing, preferring to keep to himself. He just didn't prefer to participate with group time. He had great difficulty paying attention to storytime. I'd watch him....and he would not make eye contact with the teacher, look around at other things, etc. He'd also do this at home when I would try and sit with him to read a book together. He'd get bored quickly and want down to play with other things.
Sleep issues..... where do I start? It was rough from birth through about age 5. As an infant, he'd cry and scream when placed in his crib. His little brother, 16 mos younger, would not make a peep when placed in his crib, so it was quite a contrast. BTW.....younger brother doesn't have any issues like ADHD, etc. For years my son went through stages where he would cry during the night and come into our bedroom wanting to be comforted. We were exhausted. He even went through a stage of night terrors......where he would scream and cry and not amount of talking to him could consol him. During a night terror episode, talking to him actually made it WORSE. It got to where we'd just put this little roll up mattress under our bed and when he'd wander in during the night, I'd just pull it out and he'd plop down and go right to sleep. At that point, I'd do anything for sleep. Okiemom
I agree with ladym's point that speech delays are not part of ADHD...they are a separate issue to be treated separately. Ditto with auditory processing disorder, sensory integration disorder, anxiety, etc. They are all separate and distinct from ADHD although they may manifest themselves with similar behavioral symptons sometimes. This of course is my lay opinion based on my research and own experience with my own child.
If your child is exhibiting significant sensory issues....by all means, include a proper OT evaluation in her overall treatment plan. Okiemom
Hello and welcome to the board. When they are so young it is hard to pinpoint a diagnosis, it seems. My own approach is to get as many early interventions as early as possible while their little brains are young and flexible. If she has a speech delay, get speech therapy even if you have to go private. If you think she has a sensory integration issue (BTW, the books The Out-of-Sync Child and The Out-of-Sync Child Has Fun are great books to read on that), put her on a "sensory diet" and/or get her some OT now. And of course you should probably have her thoroughly evaluated if you haven't done so already. I feel for you because I have BTDT and it is so hard to figure out what is really going on. Oh, and one other thing I'll say because I learned this the hard way--make sure you keep a good relationship with her. Try to praise her 5 times for every 1 time you punish. Hard to do but so worth it in the long run. Good Luck!I did not read through the posts above (sorry), but if he's 4 and has been evaluated, then you probably just need to let this play out. I've read that it's hard to nail down a dx at such a young age. The testing options are pretty limited; they are based on age. Maybe you could get a neuro-psyche eval and an OT eval around age 6-7. Plus, things really change between 4 and 6. Many of the issues my son had at age 4 are just completely gone.
50% of children with ADHD also have a comorbid condition, so that may be why your child is complex.
I second the recommendation to read The Out of Sync Child.
Also, a magnesium supplement might help for the hyperactivity.