Need help - ADHD son entered Kindergarten | ADHD Information

Well if it is anxiety, the rule of thumb is to treat the anxiety first. I suggest you get an Advocate. Call your local CHADD office and see if they have any recommendations.

Additionally, I would call back the doc and try to get him on the proper meds and at the proper dosage.

What state are you in? Perhaps someone from your same state might have some suggestions.

Finally, go check out special ed law a good advocacy site is called Wrights Law ( just do a google search).

Good luck with everything.

We had started the meds while he was in public school and continued them while he wasin private school. He is still on the highest dose possible for his age/weight. He takes meds year-round for consistency. He has monthly check-ups with his Dr.

They were more accomodating in the private school but they were also, as a rule, stricter with the kids because it was a private school. My son really responds to "rules" as long as he knows them and they are enforced. He responded mostly to the individual attention he received from all his teachers there.

PE was the big issue. He could not keep himself under control in the more un-structured environment of gym class. He impulsively hit the other kids (never hard or violent but he hit non-the-less) and we got constant reports from his PE teacher about his behaviour in gym. I too worried about him being kicked out but he wasn't.

When he went back to the public school he went directly in to third grade because of the academic progress he had made at the private school as well as the results of his IQ tests. He continued to have many issues in the public school he was in. We lived in Kentucky at the time and the school there was completely unequipped to handle a child with ADHD. They were (and could still be) in the dark ages of ADHD knowledge. My son was labled as "bad" and treated accordingly.

Finally, when he was in fourth grade I moved back to my native NY. When I moved to a new town in New York I interviewed all the schools that my son would attend depending on where we located. I found one that I believed would work with us. The principal of this school had a son that was ADHD. That school was the best thing that ever happened to my son. His teacher, Special Aid teacher and principal worked so hard to make my son's fifth grade year a success. Once he tasted the success; he has worked increasingly harder to control his behavior and live in a world of people. This is not to say he has not had any problems since then. It is always an up hill battle for him. He no longer needs an IEP but I keep close contact with his school nurse adn principal.

I seriously considered many times going the home-schooling route and I have a friend that did that because of ADHD issues. She was very successful with that. If that is an option for you, you might consider it. There is no one right answer to handling the ADHD child except to love them no matter what.

Sorry to be so long winded. I hope some of my stories are helpful to you. I will be more than happy to answer any questions you have.

Since you are in TX, you might want to PM lillian. She is quite knowlegeable. She may be able to direct you to an advocate in your area, among other things.

Does the aggressive behavior coincide with the Ritalin? Was he aggressive before he started taking it?

When is his b-day? If it's after July, you could consider holding him back a year.

I would schedule an evaluation and send the school a letter stating that an evaluation is scheduled, giving the name of the doctor and the date. They will know that you are doing something.

They cannot just send him to an alternative school. I suspect that's very unusual for a kindergartner in the 2nd week of school. Absurd, really, IMHO. Check the www.wrightslaw.com website. I don't think they have "6 weeks" to begin an evaluation if you request one in writing. And even if they do, this is an exception, and needs to be fast-tracked. Get in someone's face the school politely and with great persistence and start advocating now. They are not just suppose to be pushing him back at you, they are suppose to be figuring out how to provide this child with a free education in the least restrictive environment possible.

If you are not ready for all of this, can he be homeschooled for one year?

I agree with joemom, calling the doc and re-evaluating his meds is going to be a really good place to begin. Getting an advocate will be a huge help.

You are correct when you say that sending him to a "special school" for violent children is not him. The behavior he is displaying is typical of his frustration at not being able to absorb all the information his brain is trying to take in. Actually, suspension is not a bad thing at this point, it gives you all a chance to chill out and re-evaluate your situation.

When my son was in the same situation, I enrolled him in a private school where there were only 15 kids per class and the teachers were able to give individual attention. They taught foreign language at that school (he was in first grade) and the teacher called home asking how often we spoke spanish in the home. He learned it so quickly that she thought it was his native language! (we don't speak it at all) That was wonderful and he thrived there except when he was in PE class. Everything fell apart there. He was only in the school for a year due to the cost but it was enough to give him the confidence to know that he could make it in a "regular" classroom.

I definitely would advise NOT going along with the school and sending your son to an alternative school. Certainly, make sure that your son is evaluated for other disorders but keep in mind that ADHD has a profound effect on a childs' ability to adapt to new situations. An ADHD child needs order and routine more than he needs food and water. When that routine is upset and his brain is "assaulted" with so much stimuli, his body is going to react in the only way it knows to defend him. He NEEDS a smaller class size and should not be forced to go to PE at all. An IEP is the only way to be able to get what he needs from any school system.

Finally, keep up the dialogue. I had a few other parents of ADHD kids to compare notes with as my son was going through what yours is now. ADHD research has come a long way in the last ten years and the medicines and methods of treating are better. However, this is a journey for you both (your whole family) and he will need your advocacy every minute of every day. Hang in there and remember that your child is not a throw-away child. He is worth every second of energy expended on him.

joemom,

Thanks for the advise.

> What state are you in? Perhaps someone from your same state might have some suggestions.

We live in TX.

I'll talk to the primary doctor today. Unfortunately, the psychiatrist is out for two weeks.

Kathiegoo,

You mentioned your child could only attend the private school for a year. If you don't mind, I have a few questions.

Did your child require medication before, during, or after? Also, how did the following year go after the return to public school? Was the private school more accomodating to your child's condition?

The combination of my son's non-compliance, aggressive behavior, and disruptiveness is worrying me that he would quickly get kicked out of a good private school.

Thanks for your advise.

So sorry to hear of your troubles. Maybe you should consider holding him back a year. Just a thought. Perhaps ask your pediatrician about it. Or sending him to a private, smaller kg this year and back to regular kg next year? I think this should be considered along with getting the correct diagnosis and medication going. It is very important to have a positive school experience in KG. You want to set him up for success in school. Good luck. You have a dizzying array of options right now. I feel for you, I really do. Keep us posted.

Help!

First of all, thank you for the continued support and recommendation. Unfortunately, matters are quickly degrading since my original post from a whole two days ago. Today, my kindergartener was suspended.

From the words of the teacher, he "assaulted" his classmates and struck her several times. He spent the whole day running around the classroom. He was yelling at the top of his lungs, ran out of the class again, and was a physical danger to himself and others.

I increased his Ritalin LA from 10 mg to 15 (by manually dividing a capsule). Obviously, that had little effect.

His typical behavior at home is much better. Of course, there are trying days. Daycare was pretty bad. But NOTHING like Kindergarten. The classroom situation is VERY overwhelming. There are 11 Kindergarten classes, each with 22 children. The gym class has around 100.

He is also a very intelligent child. Although we're trying to get the IEP process going, the vice principal mentioned he might have to go to a 'special school' for violent children. THIS IS NOT OUR BOY! I'm afraid if he is forced to go to such a school it will do more harm than good.

As from several posts, I'm afraid there may be more going on than just ADHD. His aggressive behavior is starting 20 minutes after the start of his class day. It's only about 1 hour after taking the Ritalin. He seems fine (mostly) before going to school.

I'm concerned that if he has an anxiety disorder, the ADHD medication may be compounding the situation. Thoughts?

from my experience with ritalin to me it does the opposite on some children with adhd. My son who is 8 was put on ritalin at the age of 5.. and he was extremely violent..then they tried adderall xr and he was still violent..The doctor eventually put him on dexedrine cr which is an older drug and he was not violent anymore..You will have to keep changing the meds until you find the right one..If you have any question you can email me at nannerandaj@comcast.net..My son has been put on so many meds. Right now he is med free until we go and see a new doctor in sept.. I am hoping we can try to treat the anxiety issues (which i think he has) first then treat the adhd.. Good luck to you because i know we all need it..

I feel your pain. My son has not had good luck with schools and daycares. He was asked to leave his first day care at the age of 2 and since then we have gone thru a few. He is 4 and started Pre-k last week. Everyday they were calling me and telling me to come get him because his aggression was just something they could not handle. Then on Tuesday of this week they said he had to get this under control before he can come back. We took him back to his psychiatrist this week and she is treating more his mood disorder then his adhd right now. She put him on Risperdal with .25mg morning .25mg lunch and then .5mg at night time.

I am not sure this will help your child, but just sharing my story and what we are trying for now. I think alot of schools are just so quick to throw their hands up and help. That is great that his teacher is wanting to help. My son got a first year teacher and well she hasn't handled this very well at all. She was in the office crying at one point when I went to pick him up.

So this has been my fun experience with his so far this year. I am hoping that we will get his aggression under control and he can go back to school. He needs this so he can get ready for the real stuff.

hopemaybe38953.3775578704Deja Vu!

My son is now 15 (almost 16) years old. I knew when I was pregnant with him that he was different.

When Chris was in Nursery school he had the teachers telling me he needed testing. By the time he started Kindergarten it was very obvious he needed help. He was extremely bright but ADHD with a BOLD CAPITAL H! He would do his work too fast and then get up and walk around the classroom touching the other kids desks and the touching the kids. By the time he was in first grade it was getting to critical stage. His first grade teacher had us meet with the principal and then proceeded to tell us that our son could not read, could not write and could not do math and never would be able to. She said he needed to be sent to the alternative school. I knew she was wrong since he was reading to me and doing addition, subtraction and some multiplication for me. We had him independently tested and found that his IQ was off the charts, he was already reading on a fifth grade level. We also went throught the tests for ADHD and began a treatment of ritalin.

To make a long story short, he also went through bouts of depression (we tried to treat with prozac which was a total disaster), he went through all the symptoms you are describing. In the end, the only medication that has ever truly worked for him has been ritalin, everybody is different but you must give the medication ample time to regulate in his system and combine it with behaviour modification. It is of the utmost importance to initiate an IEP at your son's school and enlist the help of the school (teachers and administrators). Phys Ed has always been his worst class because there is no real structure, ADHD kids need three things: What are the rules, who will enforce them, and what happens if I don't follow them. Don't let the school run you over, you are best and only advocate for your son, he will surprise you and in the end make you so proud. Now is the time to start, don't wait.

Additionally, find outlets for your son. Chris was extremely involved with baseball until he was about 11 and then he took up dance. These activities served two purposes: 1) They used up physical energy and 2) They taught him discipline and social coping skills.

Never shy away from taking him everywhere you go but be ready to have to take him out if he cannot cope. Large crowds were always an issue with Chris but he now loves going to NY City.

At nearly 16, Chris still has many issues to work out but he is a sensitive, sweet kid who is devoted to his family and church and will go out of his way to help another person (especially those with handicaps). He will be graduating next year from High School and plans to attend college to be a forensic scientist. This would not have happened if it were not for the efforts of teachers and caregivers who were willing to work with us to help Chris find his way.

Bottom line, you are at the begining of one of the best and most difficult adventures of your life. Hang in there and you will be rewarded over and over.

HI Jill,

Aggression in children with adhd is not common but one may see aggression in a child taking stimulants that is either misdiagnosed with adhd or has something more going on besides adhd for example, bipolar disorder which could trigger aggression and mania if the child takes stimulant meds. Children with adhd suffer from high levels of frustration which can make them angry but they normally don't act out agressively. For the child who is truly adhd, effective medication minimalizes a lot of the frustration as the medication helps manage the many symptoms of adhd thus alleviating the many challenges they experience on a daily basis that do cause such frustration.

A short acting stimulant med should eliminate rebound and that is usually the protocal when the child is experiencing rebound. . The behavior you see is due to rebound because the medication has worn off, not due to the effects of the medication. Good luck and please keep us posted

The first thing I thought of when you said how large the school was, was
how is their special ed program? Out of 220 kindergarteners, he can't be
the only one needing extra help and attention. There may be a fairly
high-functioning class that can keep him interested academically, but
that will have the aides and resources that he needs to learn social skills
too.

My son had similar problems in daycare and preschool. We started meds
at 4 1/2 and I found an amazing private school that was a perfect fit-
very loving, very structured, very strict, and very advanced academically.
His Kindergarten class had two teachers and eighteen kids, and he
finished the year reading at a 4th grade level. I don't know exactly how to
find another school like this, but if your district has charter schools,
"fundamental" might fit your son's needs. I also looked into a Carden
school and it sounded appropriate, but couldn't get an interview in time.

The key seems to be finding educators that understand that bright kids
can have a big gap between what they can do academically and their
maturity level, and they need a very individual approach. Today was my
son's second day of first grade, and I found him happily folding laundry
with the assistant principal in the preschool class, because she had
noticed that he was stressed out from the long day in class and couldn't
have handled the unstructured playground time very well. They catch him
here before he blows up, and he feels so much better about himself, I
think.

Also, maybe the 10mg was the right dose, but wore off too soon. Or
maybe a slightly different stimulant, like Adderall or the one that starts
with F (can't remember the name) might make a difference.

Good luck!

I am sorry you are having such a hard time....I believe the rule of thumb is to treat the anxiety first and then see what is happening with the ADHD behaviors. ( someone correct me if I am wrong).

Also, You may want to talk to the principal and see if this teacher is the best fit for your child...some teachers are better than others when dealing with ADHD and have a nice structure that suits them...it is the beginning of the year so switching him should not be a problem.

My son entered Kindergarten last week at our public elementary school. Unfortunately, the class has 22 children, and the school is so overcrowded that his gym, art, and music classes have over 50 children in them. There are 10 Kindergarten classes alone at the elementary school.

He is a very bright child and has an excellent vocabulary. Often, he is very caring and a sweet boy. However, he has an explosive/inflexibile personality and anxiety issues pertaining to his ADHD.

In the past year, We have tried OT, PT, and a learning consultant. Recently, we started medication. We started with Ritalin LA 10 MG for a week. He had immediate improvements. However, issues occured once he moved up to 20 MG. He became emotionally sensitive, depressed (which he never was before), lethargic, and would not eat. The doctor took him off of Ritalin, and recommended a Psychiatrist, who put him on Strattera for four weeks. Unfortunately, Strattera had absolutlely no positive impact.

His first three days in Kindergarten were a disaster. We put him back on Ritalin LA 10 mg, which had a substantial improvement for five days (three of them were school days). Unfortunately, today at school he ran into the same issues as the first few days, and his gym teacher sent him to the Principal's office.

Reported Behavioral issues:

- Refused to participate in group activities
- Overstimulated
- High level of anxiety
- Runs around the class "out of control"
- Doesn't listen to the teachers' orders (e.g., "stop" or "sit down")
- Not paying attention to the teachers' class lessons
- Becomes aggressive with classmates
- Frustrated quickly
- Sent to the principal's office

His primary doctor feels that he suffers from a high level of anxiety. His previous day care mentioned that he has issues with impulse control (especially aggressive).

My wife and I could use some good advice.

I had/have similiar issues with my now First Grader. He has impulse control and agressive problems as well as High ADHHHHHHD :-). I'm not sure if I can help, but I'll let you know my experience...

We started out with 5 mg FocalinXR, it was okay, but hard to find and not covered by insurance, so we switched to Adderall. I can't remember the dosage, the lowest... it was sort of okay. We will tried to go up a notch, he was incredibly emotional, crying at the drop of a hat (not like him at all!)...

We moved to Ritalin LA 10mg at Christmas time and noticed a DRASTIC difference and great improvement in his control, aggression, classroom partipation, focus, learning, everything...

He began having some problems around spring break and we went up to 20 mg. He continued to improve, but this is when the side effects started - not eating as well, more agressive in the afternoons, etc. Sad, slightly withdrawn (not like him at all).

Mid July I took him off everything and put up with the problems and tried to figure out what to do when school started (today). We met the with doctor and he said it's common to have agressive behavior when the meds are wearing off with Ritalin. He recommended the new patch. He doesn't have another patients on this yet, so I'm doing more research before making that step. However, it does seem like many of the side effects will go away with the patch.

So, we opted for 10 mg Focalin XR. He does GREAT while on the medication, but we are seeing the same problems as he had with Ritalin when it's wearing off. He's angry, irratible, aggressive, etc.

He has always taken the medication around 7am and I start to see the negatives about 3pmish, then it continues on and off until bedtime - 8pmish...

My sister's children take antideppresants along with the ADD meds to avoid the downfalls. However, doctors are usually not comfortable doing this for children so young. I don't know what to do about it either.

I would imagine you've already talked to the teacher, explained the situation and asked for help. I hope that will work for you. Usually when teachers see your efforts, they are more likely to go the extra mile as well.

I know this isn't much help, but maybe you'll find bits and pieces that may apply. Good luck to you.

Jill :-)

[QUOTE=daveinaustin999]

He is a very bright child and has an excellent vocabulary. Often, he is very caring and a sweet boy. However, he has an explosive/inflexibile personality and anxiety issues pertaining to his ADHD.

Reported Behavioral issues:

His primary doctor feels that he suffers from a high level of anxiety. His previous day care mentioned that he has issues with impulse control (especially aggressive).

My wife and I could use some good advice. [/QUOTE]

Does he qualify for an IEP? When you look at all environments in his school, which ones does he behave the 'worst' in? I'm wondering if it's a noise factor. Also, where is his seatwork situated? He may need to be moved into a different area of class. Remember, behind the behaviour there's a message. Your son is trying to tell his teachers something .. even if he doesn't quite know himself.

I appreciate all of your help and support!

Unfortunately, he was sent home early today. His behavior is continually worsening. The Psychiatrist is in the midst of moving offices, so she is out of the loop for two weeks.

As he was on the Ritalin LA 10 mg today, he showed signs of aggression after only 20 minutes in the class (approximately 1 hour after taking the Ritalin). He hit some students, he hit the teacher twice, was non-compliant the entire morning, and he ran out of the class.

Quixote, I believe his school is too stimulating. I appreciate the advise to find a smaller, private school. We are fortunate that his teacher is excellent. I mentioned several books (e.g., The Explosive Child and The Out of Sync Child) and she has read them. She was an attorney turned teacher, due to her finding her calling in life. Therefore, she is truly motivated to help and is pleased with the efforts we are trying. However, I will move him to a new school if the main issue is the size of his classes.

Joemom, I met today with the counselor to discuss the IEP. However, she said it could take up to 6 weeks to get through the paperwork. This is a promising direction. Hopefully, this will help him get into smaller classes. If it all possible, I'd like to keep in his school. It's one of the best in our area. However, it won't be too good for him with his current behavior.

Jill, thanks for the medical advise. I'll look up the Focalin XR and the patch. Our children sounded like they had similar affects with Ritalin LA 20 mg. Once the Psychiatrist is available, I'll talk to her about the antidepressant.

Tonight was very challenging. After a rough day AND after the Ritalin wore off he seemed like a different child.

daveinaustin99938952.7372916667

Elizmic,

Thanks for your advise. I'll talk to doctor about Concerta.

Jill,

It's fairly common for children who are on the long acting stimulants (Concerta, Ritalin LA, etc.) to also be given a small dose of the short acting stimulant (Eg., 5 mg. Ritalin) in the afternoon, to counteract the rebound effect that may occur with stimulants. Doing so also helps the child remain focused to do homework, chores, etc. Have you talked to your Dr. about that?

It might be another option for your sister's kids too?

Did he have the anxiety issues prior to the adhd medications? I am only asking because it seems as if my ds shows signs of OCD, which is common with ADHD but the signs aren't as prominent when he is NOT on the medication.

My suggestion is to get a different medicaiton. They all work differently. Have you tried Adderall?

know what you are going through my son was thrown out a daycare at the age of 2 because of the same problems. we went to a child physician and they put him on 18mg of concerta and work up to 36 mg in one year and change so much. that he is a joy to have around and not yelling all the time. Have them try concerta and see how he does. it doesn't have that many side effects. the main side effect is not eating. but that comes back in time. my son was 55 lbs at the age of 4 and not on 54 mg. he weighs 55 lbs. good luck if i can help anymore email me

Dave,Sorry that your little guy got sent home. It sounds like the meds were starting to work, I know that zoloft takes a while to work at a therapeutic level.

I also have used Omega 3s...I got something from a place called genuine health because that had one with a high EPA. ( I thnk they have a liquid). I used the omega 3 in combo with the stimulant med and I also gave a vitamin e to prevent oxidation. I ran all this by our doc before using it.

The CHADD magazine came out this month and talked about alternative and complementary treatments and while they did not discount the use of Omega3s they also said that more research needs to be done. ( this is a good thing because CHADD is very research based).

joemom38959.2383680556

So sorry to hear you are having such a hard time with the school.

One other thing, when you do a letter asking for the evaluation, make sure you send it certified mail with a return receipt so you have a signed receipt that it was received by the school. I know of other parents who sent it regular mail and the school claimed they did not receive it. For the IQ test, my daughter did not score above average when tested with the rest of the school but when given the test alone she scored way above average - the setting maked a huge differance with most ADHD kids. I had my daughter evaluated at Childrens Hospital (psychologist, neuro-psych, etc) and gave the school a copy - I believe this definately helped in the schools diagnosis. Wrightslaw has a lot of information on their web site with regard to the school and the evaluation process - I found it extremely helpful.

You don't need to come up with a list for the school. Just ask for a Comprehensive Evaluation in writing (maybe not just yet since you don't have a private report in hand). They've got a standard list of tests--IQ and achievement tests are usually included, among others I believe. They will ask you to sign a form authorizing the evaluation and you can ask detailed questions before you sign.

You do need to make sure that your psychologist knows what he/she is doing when it comes to providing a report. Our neuro-psyche did the Boston Naming Test, NEPSY, TEA-Ch, Children's Memory Scale, WIAT-2, Conners Rating Scale, GORT-4, RCFT, TLC, and WISC-IV. With the school still pushing the ED thing so hard I'd get a report from the psychiatrist also. Our doctor outright stated that my son should be qualified under the OHI category b/c she knew that it was an issue. That's the category for ADHD kids. You seem certain that the dx is ADHD and anxiety only. Is that right? both doctors are 100% positive?

NoTellin38958.9198032407

Thanks for the advise, everybody.

I'll start looking into purchasing the fish oils. I had a hard time trying to find them in a child-friendly size/packaging, and appreciate the help!

Unfortunately, my boy was sent home early again today. He tried to talk to a kid that was ignoring him. This made my son mad, which caused him to start yelling at him, then throwing things at the boy. My son went into vapor lock, and hit the teacher, counselor, and principal.

After a discussion with the principal, she was trying to sell the "merits" of an ED school. Great. My son's only been in school for 2.5 weeks...

2girls mentioned that I should request an IQ test as part of the evaluation. I need to figure out how to request specific tests. I'm assuming I need to find the right list, and give it to the principal. I will begin researching how to do this properly, but if somebody knows how its done for Texas or Round Rock ISD in particular, you're help will be much appreciated!!!

-Dave

daveinaustin99938958.7231365741

Dave, I agree with both lillian and NoTellin. Your little guy is doing somewhat better than before and the idea of targeting the critical behaviors is great. When I was a teacher we would give behaviors the " Wal-Mart test" and if the behavior is something that is tolerated at Wal-Mart than leave it alone. If the behavior would get you kicked out of Wal-Mart or arrested then it is one to work on. For example the talking under your breath....this behavior passes the wal-mart test...swinging arms and hitting others would get you kicked out and possibly arrested. So this is one to target. The talking all day is one that can be ignored for now. Your little guy need to be rewarded for what his is doing well in addition to working on behaviors that need attention

Things will get better. Remember the zoloft takes a few weeks to reach therapeutic levels.

joemom38963.19375

It really helped me to get perspective when I observed my son in class. I stayed the entire day, and wrote detailed notes on everything he did in a factual manner. Then I went home and reviewed my notes. Instead of trying to absorb what the teacher was saying and thinking every moment of my son's days were horrible, I had a more realistic view on the whole thing. Some of the behavior really was OK. But she was so focused on my son and his behavior that everything got thrown into the basket.

In terms of your son, does it matter that he was not happy that he had to clean the table? (He is allowed to be unhappy, right?) Does it matter that it took him 5 min to get to the carpet? Who cares if he talked under his breath "all day" to himself (BTW my son's 1st grade teacher mentioned this also, insinuating that he was nuts, and I had to control myself so that I did not laugh at her--most kids do this when they are playing with toys alone). I would just take some of this stuff and erase it from the relevent list. Get down the the actual pertinent issues. Like the yelling. I'd target the yelling. I agree with Lillian that it sounds like frustration. Try some play acting, give him some tools to deal with frustration, maybe try play therapy. Why not propose that the teacher give him a face rating for morning, afternoon, and late afternoon on the yelling only. Then come up with rewards for one, two, and three happy faces per day.

Her note is rather daunting, but your son is improving. He is not hitting. Let's not overlook that.

Since education is at the bottom of her list, I guess you'd better make sure he doesn't fall behind academically.

Thanks, everybody.

His behavior is not changing, and I've been averaging 4-5 hours of sleep a night, spending the rest of the time outside of work trying to figure all of this out. I kind of hit a brick wall and stayed offline for a couple of days.

We met with his Psychologist, and she is absolutely positive it is ADHD, exasperated by the stress/anxiety of being in an overcrowded school. She is a good psychologist, and is a professor at one of the local colleges.

I've included the teacher's comments for the week. Fortunately, he was only sent home early once this week, and had no suspensions. But, things are far from good. She said she's working on the disruptive behavior first. Once it's solved, she can work on defiance. Finally, on education.

Thanks again for all of your support.

-Dave

Teacher's Comments from yesterday (Friday):

In terms of your question regarding [your son's] behavior today:
I am still seeing the same behaviors previously discussed. He seemed
calmer today, but I could not get him to stay on task. He was very defiant
today and would yell any time I asked him to do something he didn't want to
do. He cooled down more quickly and he kept his hands to himself pretty
much all day. I did have to move him away from the other children on the
carpet two times because he was trying to swing his arms into them.

He would not leave his table to come to the carpet today until we had been
there about 5 minutes (this happened three times). He would not put the
markers away when asked and colored all over himself and the table. He was
not happy that he had to clean the table. He would not finish his writing
and so I had him complete it at recess before he could play. He did then
quickly finish the task.

He "talked" all day long (sometimes under his breath and other times while
yelling) and kept repeating phrases over and over again. He wasn't talking to
me or to anyone else and didn't like it that I asked him to stop. He would
yell back at me. So, we're still working on yelling and keeping his hands to
himself, as well as defiant/disruptive behaviors.

[QUOTE=daveinaustin999]

Teacher's Comments from yesterday (Friday):

Problem with transitions.

He cooled down more quickly and he kept his hands to himself pretty
much all day. I did have to move him away from the other children on the
carpet two times because he was trying to swing his arms into them.

Problems with personal space.

He would not leave his table to come to the carpet today until we had been
there about 5 minutes (this happened three times).

Problems with transitions.

He would not put themarkers away when asked and colored all over himself and the table.

Problems with transitions.

He was not happy that he had to clean the table. He would not finish his writing
and so I had him complete it at recess before he could play. He did then
quickly finish the task.

Problem with transitions. Also, could be a problem with noise and/or personal space. With the way the teacher wrote this, she suggests that the punishment of staying in from recess motivated your child to complete the assignment. This may or may not be the case. His finishing the assignment could just as easily have been from his being in a quiet room or being given extra time to transition from writing.

What was he repeating over and over? How does she know he wasn't talking to himself, calming himself or reassuring himself of a task that needed to be done? You need to know what he's saying.

He would yell back at me.

Frustration.

So, we're still working on yelling and keeping his hands to himself, as well as defiant/disruptive behaviors.

From what little I have read here, I would say that working on transitions may help a great deal. My son is thirteen, and I still give him warnings like, "We're leaving in ten minutes," or "You have fifteen more minutes on the computer before it's time to turn it off." Also, I would like to see how your son acts, if he is given more personal space in the classroom. Some ADHD kids work more efficiently when separated from the rest of the class, while others are mortified when separated. It really depends on the kid. Your child may do better at a table by himself or a table where there is only one other child.

I think you need to go to class with your child for a few days and observe. You need to see his behavior because you are the parent and know your child better than anyone. You may recognize why he is reacting the way he is right away. It may be very clear to you, whereas it will not be to someone who does not know your child, as well as you do.

Good luck!

[/QUOTE] joemom -- I love the Wal-Mart test

Dave, I've been there. That situation you described with your son, that's happened with my son for sure. It's good to know we're all not alone, eh?

My son's kindergarten vice-principal started talking about the program my son is in now (it's mainly for ED kids, although my son's OHI) around two week as well. After my son got sent to the VP, trashed the VP's office and when the VP tried to restrain him, bit his hand. Now, my son, despite his recent wonderful progress, is acting out at this new school as well as aftercare (his dad and I recently separated, and he thinks his behavior will bring us back together, despite what I've told him). This so-called ED program called asking for tips on how to deal with my son. Looks like we're headed back to push for a private special-ed school at county expense. Time to tighten my seat belt and strengthen my sanity.

I paid for a private eval for my son. I STRONGLY urge you to do that before the school evaluates him b/c the school district, no matter how much educators care out kids, is looking out for its own interests. You can request that an IEP convene in writing, or have the school refer your son to the IEP team. But start looking into private evals now. They are not cheap (my son's was about 00)You will need to have a neuropsychological eval done (the school system would likely do a psycho-education eval) which will include an IQ test. Some names of tests you may hear are WPSI (a roman numeral follow this; it's an IQ test), Woodcock-Johnson (which I heard is a bit much for very young kids, but I don't know), Batell (not sure I have the spelling right, I have been told this is appropriate for preschoolers). Anybody else who can shed more light on these, please jump in! NoTellin is right about having someone do the eval who knows what they are doing. You want someone who's going to best represent what you want for your son. I still had problems with the psychologist who did my son's despite my precautions (she tried to make a secondary diagnosis of ODD, which I and my psychiatrist disagreed with). NoTellin is also right on point about the psychiatrist's report -- it can be a letter signed by the psychiatrist on his or her letterhead.

Also try ldonline.com. They have an IEP section which is quite good, with tips, summary of the law and sample letters. They also have a forum with an IEP section, but the members don't converse that much.

As for the fish oil, I am currently using Nordic Naturals, which has no artificial colors but are flavored gel pills.

Good luck.

My neuro-psyche at a children's hospital cost 00 and included an observation visit to the school. They wanted $ upfront. I'm submitting to the insurance for reimbursement and supposedly it's covered, but we'll see. To find out about insurance you need to get the "CPT" code from the doctor and diagnosis code and then call the insurance and ask if those are covered.

Dave,

I don't have any advise to give you. Your in good hands with all the ladies in the above posts. I just want you to know how much I feel for you and your family. I know that pit of your stomache feeling you get when the phone rings and the caller ID shows you that its the school. I just want you to know that you and your family are in my prayers and I hope things get better for you all soon. Hang in there and take to heart what the parents that have been through this have to say. They are a great resource and a place of refuge. Good Luck.

Thanks for the replies to the teacher's note.

My son does have transition issues. We try the "5 minutes until ..." approach, which sometimes helps and sometimes doesn't.

He does have issues with noise. This is one of the issues that I have with him being in a 22:1 student/teacher class. He does fine, but can lose it after the class gets loud.

The Wal-mart test is good!

Hopefully, we'll be able to sit in his class this week.

-Dave

For noise: CD player or Mp3 playing white noise or ear plugs.

Dave, it's also a good thing that he isn't being suspended or sent home more. That has the opposite effect that educators think it has. He probably doesn't care about being sent home, especially if that means he gets to spend time with you.

Also, while I understand that a smart kid will pick up the academics, teachers can use academics as an ally, to focus on something in which the child does well to build self-esteem. I agree with the transition and personal space assessments above, and would add low frustration tolerance to the mix (although frustration was mentioned).

You did not express discomfort with academics being at the bottom of the list, but if you are, here's something I do. I keep colorful, fun workbooks at home. These can be helpful during a holiday or summer break, or if you feel your child may be falling behind. Keep it low pressure. Let him choose the pages he wants to work on.

Finally, I second the motion on in-school observation. It's an excellent idea. I was able to see, with much clarity, what worked and didn't work in the classroom. I could also see how my son was viewed by teachers and administrators alike. I don't mean to be negative, here, but I will end with this: once the teachers and principal see your child as a "problem child," especially with regard to behavior problems, they can grow to dislike your child. And it's downhill from there. You can't control that (and there are teachers and principals who don't have that attitude), but you'll need to communicate with the school as much as possible.

Gloria,

We started with our pediatrician. Then we hired a learning consultant, a PT, and an OT. Each had their benefits. However, my son's behavior did not improve much through all of it.

The Child Psychologist and Psychiatrist have been making some progress. My son had a pretty good week last week. However, things have been pretty bad again this week.

I'd probably get several child Psychologist recommendations from your pediatrician, and start from there.

Good luck!

-Dave

It's sad to say, but Esmom is right---the teacher can grow to dislike your child. It was obvious to me that my son's 1st grade teacher found him extremely annoying. It intensified as the year went on. If you observe your son in class and you can tell now that the teacher dislikes your child already, consider asking for a new teacher, one who would "be a better fit."

NoTellin38965.5061226852

I forgot to mention what NoTellin did state -- a transfer request may be in order. I received some advice to ask the PTA president who the best K teachers were. I managed to see and speak to the vice president about my issues w/my son, and she recommended a particular teacher. After my requests (and my son's continued issues), he was finally trasnferred to the teacher I wanted. Did his problems go away? No, not totally. But was she a patient, nurturing teacher who tried her darndest? Yes. She has a son w/disabilities including ODD, and she was open about that and understanding. One of my son's kindergarten year blessings.

Thanks once again for all of the responses. It is incredibly meaningful for me to have so many people helping!

My son's aggression occurs with or without Ritalin. So, it's not necessarily a direct correlation with the drug. The first time we tried it, it seemed to reduce the aggression.

His birthday is before July. I'm not sure I can keep him back. Also, I'm not sure if it will help. His condition has worsened over the past two years. However, a smaller, private school and home schooling are two other possibilities to explore if we can't quickly reduce his aggression.

I'll research dexedrine. I don't know much about it. If you find a new anxiety medication, please let me know!

We contacted the vice principal and they are trying to get the IEP started as quickly as possible. Hopefully, this will be sooner than 6 weeks.

Good news! As mentioned, his new Psychiatrist is on a two week vacation. However, I talked with his primary doctor (who's friends of the psychiatrist) and Psychologist today. The primary doctor was able to contact the Psychiatrist, who is decided to try something new. She faxed in a prescription for Zoloft 25 mg., and Clonadine 0.1 (short term until the Zoloft takes effect). However, I forgot to ask if we should continue the Ritalin. Hopefully I'll be able to talk to her next week.

Thanks again for your support.

MamaBear -

Thank you so much! Funny - I talked to the Dr tonight and it was the first time he suggested short acting Focalin around 1 to 2pm. Does this really eliminate the rebound effects? Sounds like that may be the answer. Are there any other problems with that? What about the self esteem issues of going to the office to take the meds? Everyone seems to say that's one of the reasons the patch is so great.

I've read that aggression is common in children with ADHD. These stimulants seem to make it worse. What's the consensus on how to handle this?

:-)

Jill,

I'm sorry. Most of your questions I can't answer from experience w/ my own daughter, as we haven't really been the stimulant route yet. Tried Concerta for 10 days in May w/ no results. Neurologist wanted to wait until we had a few appoinments w/ Psychologist (started taking her there in May also) to make sure she didn't have Bipolar, Depression, or Anxiety issues, before trying another stimulant. These share many like symptoms of ADHD, so kids are often misdiagnosed with ADHD, when really they may have one of the above mentioned disorders. Fortuantely, the Psychologist doesn't believe she has any of those, and neither did I. So, we now have a prescription for Metadate CD to fill, but the Neurologist wants us to give her a few weeks in school to see how she does this year first; and if it is really needed. DD has TS also, so there is a chance stimulants will increase her tics. I fear rebound myself (she is soooo argumentative anyway, I can't even imagine what rebound will cause) so I already discussed the possibilty of a short acting med. for afternoons if it becomes an issue.

I work with spec. ed. kids, many who have ADHD, so that is where my knowledge of short term meds in the afternoons came from. For most, it seems to work well. The only negative I have been informed of is problems going to sleep at night if the afternoon dose is given to late.

I don't have much knowledge of the patch (the few people I know who have tried it have had positive things to say about it), but if you are worried about self esteem issues from daily trips to the nurse, you should certainly research it a little more and consider trying it?

What time does your child arrive home from school and what is his bedtime? Short acting stimulants only last 3 to 4 hours. Would it be possible to give it to him right after school?

I can't help you much with the aggression....I think alot of it is the impulsiveness. My DD isn't really aggressive, but VERY argumentative and defiant. We are seeing a Psychologist to try to work that out, because nothing DH and I try is working and we have rules, consequences, and are consistent.......She just doesn't care and that's what she tells us! Argggg!

Good luck. Let us know how it goes!

Mamabear

I dont agree with notellin on the IEP. My son has had an IEP thru our county since he was in 1st grade for adhd, he is in the mainstream class part of the day and the ED class for the rest of the day. It made a world of difference for my son at school. He went from a child that had no respect for the teachers or other kids, a child that would spend alot of time in the office his first year of school, basically my son was horrible in school got sent home in kindergarten, that was making N's and M's on his report card to a child that is going into the 3rd grade and by the end of second grade he was making S's and E's on his report card. Yes they do tackle the behavioral part also only by a daily progress report for my son..He get stars for excellent, he gets smiley faces for good job, and sad faces for a poor job.. I would not get freaked out by an IEP like I said it has been wonderful for my son..The school pshylocgist also evaulated my son also along with the pshyciatrist and they came to a decision that it was best that my son be put in the ED part of the IEP..And I agreed becasue of the fact that my son was having major behavioral issues and learning issues at school..All you can do is try the IEP and if you are not happy with it you can request that his IEP be changed accordingly..I have done that..

Thanks for the advise.

Last week, we started to eliminate all forms of violent shows and games around the house. Also, my wife enrolled him (and herself) into a martial arts class which begins in two weeks.

I'm sending a letter to the Psychologist insisting on the complete assessment. Although she's convinced he only has ADHD, I'm mentioning that the test will help ensure he only has ADHD and that the complete eval will help to ensure the school makes the correct assessment.

I will begin to search for 'lillian' and will PM her tonight.

nannerandaj,

Thanks for your response. It's good to hear that the ED portion of the IEP was successful for your son. It sounds like it significantly helped him to make improvements in all areas of his school environment. It's also good to hear that IEP classifications can change.

By the way, has your son needed medication? If so, may I ask what he has been taking?

The issue that I'm concerned about it that ED is a different school in our district. If he gets the OHI classification, the current school will make accomodations that will help facilitate is ability to learn. I'm concerned the ED classification will send him to a different school, one which will focus on trying to "fix" an "unfixable" behavior instead of focusing on learning. I realize that my fears could be a bit irrational.

I had this category problem and I discussed this issue with three advocates and a parent support group (I made the mistake of getting the school eval before the private eval). I am pretty sure that IEP classifications do not change. Everyone that I talked to said to stear clear of the ED category for an ADHD child. The problem is when the child is actually moved to the alternate setting. That is a different physical location in my school district. I have heard that some ED classes are good. Ours here is a last resort kind on thing. I guess observing the ED room in your district would tell you.

Davinaustin,

I think that once you get your sons meds squared away the ED class will no longer be an issue. Hang in there.

You also might think about getting a report from the psychiatrist as well. I've heard that the "MD" carries more weight...you'll find discussions on this if you really search the board.

daveinaustin,

to answer your question about meds. my son has been put on 11 different meds and they work for awhile and then stop working. He has been put on concerta 18mg, ritalin, zyprexa, risperdol, adderall xr, clondine, seroquel, trazadone, imaprimine, atarax, and finally last but not least dexedrine. And the dexedrine has made a big difference in my son regarding school behavior and aggression..Right now he is not on any meds because we are going to see a new doctor on sept 7th. I think my son has anxiety issues also with the diag. of adhd and bipolar NOS(not otherwise specified). Right now we see the anxiety more than i see other symptoms because he is not on the meds and the new doctor wants him med free for 2 months..And it has been crazy with no meds.

Regarding the ED classes it might be different where i live (Virginia) they dont have seperate schools for the ED or LD they go to school in his district..I know some states have special school for children all i can say is from my situation the Ed has helped my son alot..Also my sons IEP does state OHI. The only time my son is in ED classes it during language arts, math, and spelling..The other times resource, science, social studies, lunch and outside time he is with the mainstream class. my son goes up for review on the IEP the classification change for full time ED up in January in 1st grade to Part time ed and mainstream in second part of 1st grade and partime ed in second grade he is up for another review of course every January. I am hoping to get him back into more of his mainstream class in January but that all depends on his behavior and work progress..The ED teacher at my sons school is wonderful..If they feel like he can handle the mainstream class more than the will put him there for more subjects, basically it is a test run. If it does not work we modifiy the IEP again.

by the way how does your son sleep at night? Im just curious
nannerandaj38956.3938541667

nannerandaj,

Virgina does have special schools for students with behavior problems. I have lived in two different counties and both had these schools ( very large counties--two of the largest districts). Please note that a "special school" is not typically used because of the Least Restrictive Environment aspect of Federal legislation. Also, many of the students in these restrictive settings have the SED label rather than the EH or ED label.

joemom

the county i live in does not.. the only school they have special is for high school kids that have been suspended from their regular schools..If my county can not teach your child in the regular school they either have to provide home schooling or pay for private school...i live in chesterfield so i dont know about you county you lived in..Which county was it..Matter of fact my best friends son was just put into private school this year because his behavior was so bad that the school could not teach him and the homeschooling did not work...

> And the dexedrine has made a big difference in my son regarding school behavior and aggression

I'll begin researching dexedrine tonight. Thanks for the advice.

BTW, he sleeps fine at night. He goes to sleep between 7:30 - 8:00 p.m. and wakes up around 5:30 - 6:00 a.m.

My son's issues have been ADHD, anxiety (exasperated by noise), and impulse control. It's amazing the difference between last week and this weekend. During this weekend, his behavior was quite good. Obviously, he has the standard ADHD characteristics, but none of the physical aggression, screaming, and total non-compliance displayed at school.

We'll see how the medicine adjustment goes at school tomorrow!

Reading through all the responses it is clear to me that each individual child has very specific needs. What has worked for one child has clearly been a problem for another. I do agree that the private evaluation being done prior to the school one is a good thing. That will give you leverage when the school wants to put your son in an inappropriate setting.

The medication issue is also of the utmost importance. The interaction of different drugs prescribed can be different according to the childs own body. We had our son on prozac and it turned out to be a real disaster. It created OCD symptoms as well as seemed to increase his aggression and anxiety. Changing his medication, even dosage and timing, can radically change his body chemistry. He needs to have consistency so you really need to give things a chance to work.

My son is sitting here with me now and is correcting my spelling. He says Hi. He also says that when your son gets to making paper airplanes to have fun. Don't ask, I don't know.

Anyway, I do digress. When it comes to working with the school on his IEP just listen to all the options and be sure to talk with other parents of children in the programs to get their take on the programs. Each state and each school may have the same programs but depending on who is running them some may be better in one state than another.

That's all for now. Best of luck tomorrow with school

Kathigoo,

It's very nice that your son says hello! Tell him I say "hi" back. I think I'll make a paper airplane with him tomorrow night.

It's amazing how a drug, such as Prozac can reduce anxiety and aggression in one child, while increasing it in another. The personal impact of psychoactive drug is just perplexing.

Thanks for your post. I'll post how things go tomorrow.

-Dave

daveinaustin99938956.8155671296

daveinaustin,

I don't know what will happen if you reduce the ritalin or even if you eliminiate it. I would put a call into the doctor tomorrow and double check if you are supposed to give it at all ( like you mentioned above). The doc should have a service that will page him/her and I think this is a pretty important question so I would not worry if I called after hours or on Sunday hours. Heck I would even call tonight and try to get someone to answer that question.

joemom38955.6896875

I agree with joemom, I would insist on talking to the doctor about whether he is to continue to on the Ritalin or not. I would also call on a Sunday. You just need to know. About the lethargy, people on this board have mentioned that lethargy occurs when the child is adjusting to the medication.

When my son was hitting, I decided to eliminate all violent input. I took away all PG rated Disney and Pixar movies (Shrek, etc), and then looked for any hitting or violence AT ALL in the remaining G rated ones, and took those as well. I did the same thing with the video games. I also went through his toys. I took any toy that he used to play violent games with -- all action figures, batman cave, knights, play swords, everything! Then I made him write the sentence "I will not hit kids" five times every day (I've got a visual learner). I enrolled him in martial arts at the same time where they teach about not using violence against anyone except for defense. I've had luck with this approach.

I'm sorry if I freaked you out about the IEP! You don't have to sign the IEP if you don't agree with the category. The best strategy is to get your report in first before the school begins an evaluation. It's a game. If they can find a reason to assign the ED category, they save money. The alternate setting for ED is funded by the mental health dept.

I would go to the School Issues board, and search under username "lillian" and start reading her posts. There's some on this board too, but the school board might contain more targeted information.

NoTellin38955.9022222222

The original poster was me a year ago. hang in there and stay on the school's case.

My son had a lot of trouble in kindergarten, and the public school felt duped b/c he tested into kindergarten early (highly intelligent). They tried to say it was a maturity problem. I knew they were wrong, b/c he had the same issues (ADHD symptoms and aggression) in daycare (he had been kicked out of more than one). I wanted him to get spec. ed. services as soon as possible if he needed them. I had to hire an educational advocate and stay in the school's case b/c they wanted to do as little as possible. I will say that I really liked his K teacher, even though I had to lobby hard to get him transferred into her class. We tried Strattera before he started school -- minimal help, weight loss, stomach ache. Then we tried Dexedrine. Increased anxiety and nervousness.

A day treatment program for kids with ADHD and emotional issues helped to narrow down his needs -- redirection, short-term rewards, small class size, etc. They suggested Concerta. The result -- he ran around the building screaming like a banshee and had a mouth-wiggling tic. From one pill.

So then we tried Risperdal, a mood stabilizer (used as anti-psychotic for the elderly originally, used now by autistic kids and those with emotional issues). This has helped the most, indicating that anxiety is more an issue than ADHD. But it seems to have impacted his short-term memory a bit. And the hyperactivity is still there. I refuse to give him more than one drug, however. I do also provide him with fish oil supplements, which also seem to be helping.

He did get an IEP and is in a public school with small class size for kids with issues like ADHD and emotional disturbance. This school provides behavior modification through a point system. My next step is to seek out a small-sized aftercare since the karate aftercare that was working okay for seven months is suddenly not working anymore!

Hopefully you can get something from this. Perhaps, as others suggested, there is a moderate to high level of anxiety which may be more of an issue (or just as much of one) as the ADHD. Stimulants tend to not work well for ADHD kids with a lot of anxiety.

If I knew of a private school with small class size and the patience to work through my son's issues through prevention (and not be ready to kick him out at the first sign of aggression), I'd have him there in a minute.

Good luck to you!

DaveinAustin999, my son's symptoms sound very similar to yours! He has improved greatly in his physical aggression. But it increased at his aftercare for some reason. He seems upset and anxious about the increased amount of kids in the program and the new counselors. They were ready to discharge him from that after the second day of school (he started first grade last week). Hence my search for a smaller aftercare. He will still take martial arts somewhere else.

I fought an ED code on my son's IEP (on the advice of his wonderful psychiatrist) b/c I don't trust the public school district he is in to focus on his academics and build on his talents. Where I live, ED is stigmatizing, although it shouldn't be. Plus, the code would limit school choices if he needs to be sent to a private spec ed school. He does attend a public school with a wing for kids with ED, but he has an OHI code on the IEP. The school's intent is to slowly mainstream the kids there at the school (there is a spec ed wing and a mainstream wing) until he is moved back to his "home school." So far, so good. I was going to ask for an IEP meeting immediately, but I will wait and see how he does.

I hope that I don't sound like ED is the plague, because I know it isn't. It's the reaction to the diagnosis (or IEP code) that peeves me.

Under the new medical regimen, my son had a somewhat better day. There were a few incidents; however, the primary teacher said he was calmer. Tonight was pretty challenging, after the Ritalin LA started to wear off.

Esmom,

You're right. Our children sound similar. My son is also very intelligent, and has significant anxiety issues with his ADHD.

Although he has anxiety issues, Ritalin LA 20 mg seems to be helping. I was concerned about similar issues that your son had with the Concerta.

The afterschool care consists of 150 kids in the school gym. Needless to say, they were ready to kick him out after day 2 as well! My wife and I have been working from home in the afternoons, in order to pick him up from school. Unfortunately, this can only go on for a few more weeks, and truthfully, I'll be lucky to keep my job.

Please elaborate on "the [ED] code would limit school choices if he needs to be sent to a private spec ed school." Does this mean if he gets the ED, I would have a tough time getting him into a different school outside of the public school system? If this is the case, I'm about ready to pull him out for now, and send him back to a daycare that offers Kindergarten (we have a few).

Also, please tell me more about the brand of the fish oil. I learned about it as a treatment two weeks ago. However, I can't find it in a child friendly size.

Thanks,

-Dave

daveinaustin999-- check www.fattyacidtrip.com for the fish oil. I've been mimicking one of the successful clinical trials with good results. It took 3-4 mos though.

My main issue with the ED label is the path that it sets up. You never know if your kid will wind up there. I can't just assume that he won't because he's doing ok now.

i have taken my son to see 3 different doctors. he sees a psychistrist & a psychologist they both are helping him in different ways. so taking him to another doctor to see what they say is perfectly fine. if you are not happy with him being on so many meds that might also put you are ease. I refused to put my son on two different meds and his psychologist worked with me and tried something completely different.

just a suggestion - this is different for everyone and their situation. sometimes i wonder why kids don't come with some type of hand book.

my daughter is going into 3rd grade and we have dealt with very similar issues both with the Ritalin side effects (very emotional, sad, lethargic) and Adderall didn't go very well either (she was like a zombie all day). We had a lot of problems with the school - calling me or her father every other day, constantly going to the principal's office, etc. We finally were able to get an IEP covering ADHD (as "other') and a "gifted" IEP combined at the end of the last school year. So far it seems to be working and the school has gotten much more tolerant and helpful. You may want to ask the school to test him individually for his IQ as party of his evaluation. Hang in there! My husband and I were very close to losing our jobs last year when my daughter was kicked out of 'after care' and we couldn't find a replacement soon enough. We have given up on meds and have had good results with Nordic Naturals Ultra Omega liquids. Good luck - it will get better.

NoTellin, thanks for your response. I'm a bit "freaked out" about any possibility of a mis-diagnosis from the IEP, so please read this lengthy post.

--------------------------------------------------

Evaluation:

We have had partial evaluations from a Psychologist and Psychiatrist, both of which diagnosed him with ADHD. The Psychologist has felt it would be "morally wrong" to give a complete Psychological evaluation since she is convinced the evalulation will not draw to any further conclusion (i.e., she is positive she is right) and didn't want us to waste the money.

If you think the complete evalutaton will help, I will convince her of the tests' importance to help ensure our son is not misdiagnosed by the school system. Probably the more testing stating he has nothing more than ADHD and anxiety issues, the better.

--------------

Aggression:

The level of aggression has occurred whether or not he is on Ritalin. The level of aggression does not seem to have increased while being on Ritalin. Rather, aggression seems to be related to the level of his anxiety. We have rarely seen a high level of physical aggression. The same applies with his doctors.

Under normal home life conditions, he is relatively fine. In a small setting, he is charming, talkative, and usually fun to be around. He is rarely ever aggressive at home.

Of course, he displays typical ADHD symptoms, such as being �floppy� at the table around dinner time, talks a lot, sometimes has difficulties with transitions (e.g., coming indoors after playing), and occasional non-compliance. Typically, when we have a reward system in place, he is much more compliant (e.g., doing things the first time he is asked).

The times he has some aggression is during times of transition (e.g., he is not ready to stop playing on the playground or when we leave a fun environment). Around us, he will yell and will be extremely non-compliant. However, this level of aggression is substantially less than at school.

He had signs of physical aggression at daycare (22:2 student/teach ratio). His previous daycare felt his physical aggression was less when he was briefly on the Ritalin. However, the aggression immediately increased once we took him off the Ritalin and placed him on Strattera. We changed medication due to lethargy, lack of appetite, depression (which he never had before), and emotional sensitivity (significantly increased under Ritalin). We tried Strattera for four weeks, but it had no impact.

At elementary school, things are a MESS! The elementary school as over 1100 children, there's a 22:1 student/teacher ratio, and his art, music, and wellness classes have up to 100 students. This is the environment which overstimulates him, skyrockets his anxiety, and causes him to be overly aggressive and severly non-compliant.

------------------

New treatment:

Last night, we gave him the first Zoloft treatment before bedtime (1/2 of a 25 MG tablet). This morning, we gave him his first Clonidine (1/2 a .1 MG tablet), and Ritalin LA 20 mg.

He seemed rather lethargic. Still talks a lot (which is fine), but not with as much enthusiasm as normal (this is emotionally hard on me). Fortunately, he still is smart, and we held good conversations.

We spent about an hour in the park, and he was rather upset when it was time to leave. However, he was fine after a two minute timeout.

I'm considering seeing what happens if I reduce the Ritalin to 10 mg. tomorrow. (Advise, please).

---------

I hate putting him on so much medication. However, I hope it will help him back at school on Monday.

I think the full ananisis would help, because he may also have like Bipolar or
something that you can help him with.

Dave, I've used two different types of fish oil supplements. The first are chewable tablets -- Nature's Plus Animal Parade Dha For Kids - Cherry, which are sold either at your local health food store or on vitaminshop.com. The serving size is three tablets a day. I have also tried fish oil gel caps (also flavered, but no red dyes) that I bought from a GNC store. Those call for 3-4 pills a day. Your child can chew them also. I think I like the Animal Parade better. They seem to help with calming him, and I have been able to lower the amount of Risperdal I give my child. The problem with the Risperdal, in addition to what I mentioned yesterday, is that it doesn't take much for him to get sleepy. At a higher dose, I had trouble waking him in the morning.

Re the ED -- I have spoken to therapists and educators who all agree that such a diagnosis or IEP coding can be stigmatizing. For instance, if your child is diagnosed as ODD (which I would fight for a very young child, because I really think you can know that ) or mood disorder NOS (I also fought this, because again, I received the clear impression the psych. involved was making a best guess), then a lot of private special ed schools (those expensive places that a public school system may pay for when your child has an IEP and the lesser restrictive environments don't work) may not take him. The reason: special ed schools for LD or ADHD often focus on kids with average to above-average intelligence and attempt to address the disability. But they are not equipped to deal with constant disruptions or excessive aggression. So they will say no to a child with a primary ED code or primary diagnosis of ODD.

Kids with the ED code who need a private special ed school (at school system expense) tend to be sent to an ED special ed school. My opinion is that I don't need my son picking up any additional behaviors that are more severe than what he has going on now. And the ED schools can't really prevent that. Plus, my concern is that such a school will be so focused on behavior that they ignore my son's talents. It's about labeling and tracking (and even warehousing) while ignoring the gifted aspect (which many parents fear), as well as about balancing the various needs of the child. It is easy for problem behavior to overshadow everything.

To me, my son is ADHD with moderate to high anxiety. Period. He receives some medication, the DHA supplement, therapy, relaxation CDs and a special class in what is the least restrictive environment for him and where his academics won't be ignored. He has an educational advocate, has had other supports in the past, and he also has a good psychiatrist who believes in erring on the side of caution when it comes to medication. And last but not least, he has parents who care.

I also understand about leaving the job early or working from home to deal with your son. I won't tell you how many times my son was suspended -- from kindergarten! Hitting, tantrums, running from the classroom.

You should get your private (thorough) evaluation BEFORE the school psychologists evaluates your child, and provide them with the report. If you don't you could be offered an IEP with an "Emotionally Disturbed" category. You want the "Other Health Impaired" category. This is important, b/c these are two different paths. If the child needs to be pulled from mainstream and winds up in an alternate setting, you don't want the ED path. An ED classroom focuses on behavior, is run by and department of mental health, provides therapy, etc. If your child really has ADHD you want the OHI path. That classroom has ADHD kids and kids with learning disabilities. The focus is academics not behavior. No amount of therapy will get the ADHD out of the child; they need classroom modification. They need the OHI path.

Does the level of aggression stay exactly the same both off and on Ritalin?
Is there zero increasse in the aggression?

NoTellin38955.4063425926

Oh Good Luck, The zoloft should be good for the anxiety.

Here are a couple of other web sites that you might find helpful. The millers mom site is great for questions about meds and the schwablearning is great for school issues ( I visit both along with this one)

http://millermom.proboards107.com/

http://schwablearning.org/message_boards/index.asp

[QUOTE=daveinaustin999]

Reported Behavioral issues:

[/QUOTE]

Altho my son just entered Pre-K,except for the class sizes, he attends a private Christian school & his class only has 10 I belive{ with a teacher & an assistant} the actions you mentioned are almost exactly the same to my 4 y/o's behavior. Don't getme wrong, he is a loving little boy, but his behavioral issues are just driving me nuts.
Is his pediatrician the best beginning stepping stone ?
Thanx!