Is ADHD really a spectrum disorder? | ADHD Information

Lillian, thanks for bumping that thread. My son is much more like yours. There is no way anyone would ever think he is autistic. He gets along well with peers, has a very funny and appropriate sense of humor, has great imagination and puts his creativity to work in lots of filmmaking projects. He also was a very early talker (and he hasn't shut up since -- LOL!).

Pammar, speech delays are NOT a part of ADHD. Nowhere in the DSM-IV definition of ADHD does it mention a speech delay. Social cluelessness is not a part of ADHD either. If any doctor is telling you speech delays and social cluelessness point to a dx of ADHD alone, I'd definitely get a second opinion.

Absolutely. On the PDD board, we find it to be extremely accurate. Whatever it shows tends to eventually be diagnosed with our kids. My son was also diagnosed first with ADHD. All ASD kids display some ADHD symptoms. Even kids diagnosed ADHD with ASD behaviors need the interventions and it should start before 3. It's not the end of the world to start later, but the earlier, the better the outcome. You may want to talk to the nice parents over at the PDD board. They've been where you are.

www.autism-pdd.net/forum/forum_topics.asp?...

pammar38964.848125QUOTE=pammar]Then what's the difference between ADHD and ASD? This is a hot topic on one of my PDD boards. Many think ADHD is just another mild Spectrum disorder. The symptoms are identical and now people are saying even speech delays are part of ADHD. What symptoms DON'T they share? [/QUOTE]

The similarities are actually superficial but the differences are truly profound. Children with ADHD and children on the spectrum think very differently. Both can be hyper or distractible but for different reasons. There are also major differences in how they learn and that's why its important to get an accurate diagnosis as the interventions, especially for learning are very different.

Those with ADHD tend to generalize and prefers the big picture. Autistic children avoid generalizations and over categorize until everything is in a set of one. Some autistic children, having seen a perfectly drawn circle, refuse to accept an imperfect circle as a "circle" This can also contribute to "face blindness' They don't take in the face as a whole but focus on one feature...ie one lip or the tip of the nose or an ear lobe.

Children can have both ADHD and autism but they are both very different disorders with different sets of problems and often, a different set of solutions, especially for learning.

Too many people think there are vast similarities when they compare disorders because many of the symptoms overlap but there are vast distinctions between all of them that require very different interventions sometimes. No one wants to label there child but in the absence of a definitive diagnosis, the appropriate treatment for the child is either delayed or wrong and it is ever so true that the earlier the intervention, the better the outcome.

[QUOTE=Luvmykids02] QUOTE=pammar]Then what's the difference between ADHD and ASD? This is a hot topic on one of my PDD boards. Many think ADHD is just another mild Spectrum disorder. The symptoms are identical and now people are saying even speech delays are part of ADHD. What symptoms DON'T they share? [/QUOTE]

Children can have both ADHD and autism but they are both very different disorders with different sets of problems and often, a different set of solutions, especially for learning.

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I was thinking the same thing, LUV.

And another thing, i really think that adding labels to children before they can get to a dr and be properly analyzed is a bad idea. It makes the parent more aware of ONE specific disorder and many drs do not take the time to really evaluate a patient and "take the parents word for it". So, if we go into a drs office and have researched over and over and then goes in and says i really see more of the symptoms of odd or ocd or adhd or other l.d.s the dr just might not take the time to really test and feels there is no point since the parent is already saying they know what it is. It's just my opinion, so please don't rip me apart with it. I do go in to our son's dr and let him evaluate then tell me what is up and then i share with the dr what I have been seeing and reading. It's just a thought to keep in the back of your minds.

ogram wrote:
And another thing, i really think that adding labels to children before they can get to a dr and be properly analyzed is a bad idea

Excellent point orgram and I can't agree more. All too often the label is given before the child is assessed by a professional. As parents we observe a set of behaviors and that is what should be conveyed to the doctor during a consultation IMO. The parent shouldn't try to convince the doctor that the child has this or that but rather the doctor has to convince the parent that his or her diagnosis is correct. While as parents we know our children best, only a specialist is qualified to make a differential diagnosis. All too often the difficulties a child is having is placed on the doorstep of ADHD when in fact there could be either more going on or something entirely different going on.

I know they aren't, smallmom, but some parents insist it is. My guess is the kids are misdiagnosed. But no matter what the symptoms are, or what the professional calls the disorder, the interventions should happen. If an ADHD child has ASD symptoms, it is neglectful not to get these interventions for the child. Obviously the child who struggles in all of those areas in life will need serious help, regardless of what the child's doctor calls the disorder. Now if you have a friendly, appropriate kid who's just hyper, there's no point in getting other interventions. This is geared towards those whose kids are struggling in many areas of life and are NOT getting social skills, PT, OT, speech, etc. That's just wrong. The kids deserve every chance. Like I said, I dont' care if the professional calls it ADHD, ASD, or ABCDEF. Early intervention is the key to a good outcome as an adult (and can hold a child back significantly if they aren't given). Quibbling over a label makes no real sense.

Amelia scored 75 on that assessment test. Is that worth looking into do you think?

I think that she is more on that side than ADHD now that I've done that.

[QUOTE=Esmom]

Uh-oh. I stepped into something here!!!

(Quick exit to another topic)

[/QUOTE]

you didn't. you are entitle just as every one else is!

[QUOTE=pammar]Yep, ogram. I tried and really couldn't do it. If you want to think I tried to trick you, again that's your problem. I agree, next topic.[/QUOTE]

and the negative attitude never stops with you, does it. I didn't think you were trying to trick any one, I was saying that you could not stay away too long and you treat people as if they are ignorant and bully your way around. Why is it that you couldn't log in as wimom any more?

ogram, why is it negative? Oh, well. I guess saying it could be something else or that further interventions may help make some people think "negative." If your child needs help, the child should get it. I don't see this as negative, although I respect your right to think so. thank you!

'bout time.

Yep, ogram. I tried and really couldn't do it. If you want to think I tried to trick you, again that's your problem. I agree, next topic.

you said you cannot log on under other ids?? lmao, you really don't know why? you are too much. Please, leave the newbies alone. You asked a question that you feel you already know the answer to. Every one that answered it and gave you numerous reasons they are not the same and you still persist for an answer that you want to hear. It's not going to happen. I agree with lillian, but one thing is different from what i think and what lillian thinks...

she said she "I have tremendous respect for you, and YOU ARE A TROLL."

i say "I lost all respect for you, and YOU ARE A TROLL"

you scare new members with you attacking the behavior and then try to dx the children. And one other thing, I cannot stand to see some one call a person's child "a kid, the kid, or this kid, your kid" that "kid" is some ones child! Please, do me a favor and refer to the children as children. They deserve the respect of NOT being called a kid. I find that referring to a child as a kid offensive. I think it gives the parents a reason to be defensive. So, try replacing "kid" with "child" or "children".

[QUOTE=SmallMom]

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Social awkwardness (if not cluelessness) can be a part of ADHD b/c an impulsive child can turn off friends (saying hurtful things without thinking, swinging her arms around w/o thinking and hitting people, excessive chatter, etc.) Severe social awkwardness points to something else besides or in addition to ADHD. Or, is it possible that the DSM-IV needs to evolve a bit and have subcategories for severe vs. mild vs. moderate ADHD (I haven't looked in the manual for a while)?

I got the impression that Pammar meant, "if your ADHD child ALSO has." I agree with her and the others that you press for your child to receive early interventions based on his or her needs, not just a diagnosis. My personal explanation is that certain symptoms can mock different disorders, and the experts make their best educated guess based on parent or school reports and what they see on the day(s) of evaluation.

Uh-oh. I stepped into something here!!!

(Quick exit to another topic)

[QUOTE=pammar] What would be the difference? If a child has language problems, the child needs speech therapy. If a child has social skills deficits, the child needs social skills class. If a child has sensory issues, the child needs PT and OT. It's the same no matter what the disorder is called. Also, many kids labeled ASD do well on ADHD meds. IMO the disorders are practically interchangeable in many (not all) cases. And, if so, it is, imo, not smart NOT to get the child all the same interventions. There are ADHD labeled kids in the same exact therapies as my son and, to be honest, they don't seem that different from my son. Whether ASD and ADHD are that much alike or whether these kids are misdiagnosed, I don't know, but it's not uncommon for my son to share these interventions with "ADHD" kids. How is ADHD therapy different from ASD therapy? I'm really curious because I can't think of any difference...thanks! [/QUOTE]

wimom, why did you change ids? you were only gone for a few weeks and it didn't take us long to figure out it was you. I guess you already know how we realized it was you.

to answer you questions about asd and adhd:

if they were the same, the entire medical profession field would not call them 2 different disorders!

http://www.adhdnews.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=15912& KW=pammar http://www.adhdnews.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=15913& KW=pammar http://www.adhdnews.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=15912& KW=pammar&PN=0&TPN=1

Those are three threads in which you have double posted, as both your aliases.

You know what bothers me about this, Pam? What bothers me is that as you take on different personas and reply multiple times on the same thread, so as to say what you have to say over and over, you lose credibility, not only for yourself, but, also, for every parent of a bipolar or autistic child, who posts on this board. Members like myself, who have been around for a while, will approach each new post from a parent of an autistic or bipolar child with caution. We will wonder if it is really you. We will wonder how many personalities you have and whether or not we should even bother to answer, since you are quite capable of carrying on the conversation with yourself.

I've said it before to you, Pam, and I'm saying it, again. I have tremendous respect for you, and YOU ARE A TROLL.

lillian38965.4313310185 lillian, I expect people to know who I am. Sometimes I have to log in, and can't do it. So I've used several (more than two) names. I don't care what my name is, as long as it's obvious it's me, and I think it is. Who cares about the ID? I'm not interested in tricking anyone. I just want to post (shrug). Anyone who didn't know it's me must not read the boards. I keep bringing it up because it's relevant, especially to newbies. And, as I've said in other posts, it will continue to be.

I have no idea why people think "aha!" when I made it so obvious. Oh well

ogram, if they aren't different, how are they not the same? There IS an ongoing debate on whether or not ADHD is on the spectrum, but that's besides the point. If they give the same interventions and have the same symptoms, how are they different, no matter what they're called? If anyone can tell me, I'm interested as a big debate is going on somewhere else, and it's interesting for me to get feedback on it, if it has though behind it.
Pam_Wi
pammar
WiMom
OlderMom
HeckCan'tRememberWhatElse
pammar38965.4908333333Yeah, Pam, everyone here who doesn't get that it's you must just be ignorant, as you so often imply that they are. And I can't understand why you have such difficulty logging in on the same day, in the same thirty minutes, with the same ID. How odd! lillian, it doesn't MATTER if they don't know. I've stated before, I'm really NOT posting for the regulars here. I'm trying to inform the newbies. Are people ignorant? I know I was at one time (shrug). I can't imagine how any regulars wouldn't know it's me, but, if they don't, I don't really care. I care about the kids. And this particular post was actually just curiosity as I do think that there is a huge correlation between the two disorders that can't really be denied. Anyways, if you want to get upset over it, I can't help it, but that wasn't my intention, and I'm certainly not going to join in on the topic of myself--just the disorders that our kids have. That's the only thing I really care about--that the kids get the best help there is. I may even change my name again if I can't log on one day. Big deal. I'll never change how I post or what I say. This is your problem and issue, not mine. If anyone here changed her name, even one hundred times, it wouldn't phase me in the least. I have other things to think about, like my children coming home from school for their first day. This is my one and only explanation of the switched identities, and you can choose to believe or not; it doesn't matter to me either way. I would do it in a far sneakier way than have them so much alike if I wanted to fool everyone

, but that's really not an interest I have. pammar38965.4972800926 What would be the difference? If a child has language problems, the child needs speech therapy. If a child has social skills deficits, the child needs social skills class. If a child has sensory issues, the child needs PT and OT. It's the same no matter what the disorder is called. Also, many kids labeled ASD do well on ADHD meds. IMO the disorders are practically interchangeable in many (not all) cases. And, if so, it is, imo, not smart NOT to get the child all the same interventions. There are ADHD labeled kids in the same exact therapies as my son and, to be honest, they don't seem that different from my son. Whether ASD and ADHD are that much alike or whether these kids are misdiagnosed, I don't know, but it's not uncommon for my son to share these interventions with "ADHD" kids. How is ADHD therapy different from ASD therapy? I'm really curious because I can't think of any difference...thanks!

pammar38965.3834606481When I was exploring social skills classes for my ADHD son, they all wanted him placed with ADHD kids, not ASD kids because they were targeting different social problems.

O.K. PSM, OlderMom, WIMom, we all know this is you, and you cannot tell me that you don't know the difference in the therapies. It's one thing to have an intellectual conversation, and it's another thing to fain ignorance to push your agenda. You know that I respect and admire your knowledge about bipolar and autism. Faining ignorance in these subjects doesn't suit you.

lillian,

Thank you for the comparison it helps explain the differences. I see what you mean by "just does not get it" because my ADHD son would never take 4 of 6 pieces of pizza. He would make sure that everyone got some and he is only 7. My son also shows concern for his personal appearance and if I ask if he remembered to brush his teeth and he forgot he will say Oh no and scoot off to brush them. He does not want anyone to think he has stinky breath. His bathing is still under my control and he takes a bath each night. Hopefully by the time he is a teenager this will be just part of the day. As a ADHDer he still has to work on social skills but I think that it is quite different from ASD. His skills are more in the pay attention category.

NoTellin wrote:
When I was exploring social skills classes for my ADHD son, they all wanted him placed with ADHD kids, not ASD kids because they were targeting different social problems

Exactly NoTellin and thats why its not a one size fits all which is exactly my point. It's about the strategies used and the strategies are very different.

lillian wrote:
O.K. PSM, OlderMom, WIMom, we all know this is you, and you cannot tell me that you don't know the difference in the therapies. It's one thing to have an intellectual conversation, and it's another thing to fain ignorance to push your agenda

What you said Lillian!

And social cluelessness is a part of ASD. Any ASDer who gets along great with others and seeks out parties isn't ASD. Check the DSM for symptoms of ASD.

There is so much overlap between ADHD and ASD and I think that's why this question is coming up so much more often. Even the level of function between kids diagnosed with aDHD and ASD isn't always different. Many ADHD kids really struggle in every way, just like ASD kids, and in the same ways, further making people think it's on the Spectrum. As for me, I'm not an expert; I don't know. I do think that if an ADHD kid acts like an ASD kid, he/she should get the same exact type of help.

O.K. I'm going to give some differences since I have an ADHD kid and an Aspie nephew. It will be interesting to see if people here agree or disagree with the examples:

1. My brother was making pizza, and he cut the pizzas into eight pieces. My Aspie nephew took six of the pieces, when there were three of his cousins waiting in line behind him. I stopped my nephew, took four of the slices off his plate and said, "Your cousins want some, too. There will be plenty to go around. This is just the first pizza." I don't think a thirteen-year-old ADHD kid would have done this. Do you? I think the ADHD kid would have tried to push to the front of the line, which my son did, somewhat, by running fast enough to make it to second place (my Aspie nephew was waiting in the kitchen, for the pizza to come out of the oven ), but my son NEVER would have taken most of the pizza.

2. My nephew will not bathe. He smells so bad that you can smell him when he walks in the room. My ADHD kid also tries to avoid baths, BUT he will say, "Dang, I need to bathe. I SMELLLL!" My nephew is oblivious to smelling. He could care less, whether or not he smells. When he stayed with us for three weeks this summer, the way I got him to bathe was by telling the boys (I directed this to both of them, even though my son knew I was really directing it to my nephew) that before they could leave the house to do any of the fun activities they had planned, they had to pass my smell test. If they didn't pass, they were going back into the bathroom and bathing, again, until they were clean enough to pass. My son, playing along with me, warned my nephew that my smell test was "really tough." My nephew replied, "That's stupid," and my son said, "Yeah, but if we want to leave the house, we've got to do it." This is the ONLY way I could get my nephew to bathe.

3. I was taking the boys somewhere, and my son started talking about wanting to visit Asia. My nephew comes back with a racist comment about Asians. Considering the fact that my son is AmerAsian, making a racist comment about Asians was totally inappropriate. Not only did my nephew make the comment, but he continued on and on about Asians, until I said, "We don't put down people in this family. We are a multi-ethnic family, and we don't do that." He did shut up, but he never apologized, and the next day, he starting making comments about Mexicans. Again, I had to tell him to be quiet and remind him that racism was not allowed in our house. He's CLUELESS about the social inappropriateness of this. Totally clueless. I don't think this would occur with a thirteen-year-old ADHD kid. The kid might slip up and say something racist, but I even question that in our house, with my son's presence, the bumperstickers on my car, and the my old hippie aura .

pammar wrote:
Many ADHD kids really struggle in every way, just like ASD kids, and in the same ways, further making people think it's on the Spectrum. As for me, I'm not an expert; I don't know. I do think that if an ADHD kid acts like an ASD kid, he/she should get the same exact type of help.

That is true that ADHD kids struggle in every way but the reasons for the struggles are very different than a child with ASD and thats why there has to be a different set of solutions to manage the behaviors and educational needs.

This is an excellent thread with some very thoughtful answers about the differences. In this case then, the kids with more profound social problems and speech delays definitely need to be assessed for ASD, but a label is a label is a label and I'm beginning to think the name is in the eyes of the one professional. If a kid has ASD symptoms, heck GET THAT HELP. If it sounds like ASD, it probably is. The ADHD kids I know are nothing like ASD kids--no speech delays, social problems are more due to "spacey" than ASD "not getting it." The ADHD kids I know do have friends, speak fine, and tend to struggle with organization and homework, not the broad issues of ASD. My philosophy is get the interventions you need--forget the label. There is quite a debate on some boards about whether or not ADHD is on the spectrum and I'm wondering if that's because so many spectrum kids are actually ASD with a misdiagnosis. Unless the child has seen a NeuroPsych, and even THEY make mistakes, I would be leery of any label given a child. Other professionals don't performance test the kids, and it's strictly a matter of his/her perception plus understanding of the disorder (many having little understanding of childhood disorders). At any rate, good posts! pammar38965.2178009259

I saw a t-shirt once that said Label Jars NOT children ( this was at a TASH conference)....anyways it is a shame that we have to have the label inorder to get the services that children need.

I honestly don't think ADHD should be on the spectrum.

Language/speech/motorskill/social problems issues are not part of add or adhd. No where in the DSM does it mention that is part of the problems. Add and adhd can be part of haveing asd also. Not all asd people are antisocial either. [QUOTE=joemom]

I saw a t-shirt once that said Label Jars NOT children ( this was at a TASH conference)....anyways it is a shame that we have to have the label inorder to get the services that children need.

[/QUOTE]

And children then have to carry the labels. I will admit that I was hoping I would not have to label my son dyslexic, so I did interventions and remediations for three years before doing so. When it became obvious that the interventions and remediations would not be enough to make him academically successful, I labeled him. It's been one of the best decisions I have ever made, for he completed sixth grade last year with an 88 overall average, all E's in conduct, and a much deeper understanding of his difficulties, thus more maturity in handling them.

So, I GET why parents don't want to label their children with autism, particularly when the child has Asperger's. Like some dyslexics, some Aspies can go their entire lives without being labeled, if remediations and interventions are enough, so the child does not have to carry the label into college admissions and the workforce. The secret, though, is doing the interventions and remediations, without giving the label.

I have a stepnephew with Asperger's, and my stepsister has refused to label him. In her and her husband's world of government employment, the Aspie label is a "death sentence." In addition, my stepnephew is extraordinarily bright and is able to take academic classes two years above his age level in the private school he attends. HOWEVER, what I am finding out, as time goes on, is that my stepsister is not just afraid of the label, she also is in denial. She has not done any interventions, only accentuated the academics, thinking his intellectual strengths would pull him through. NOT! His social skills are horrendous. He doesn't bathe, he has conversations with highly inappropriate subject matters (flippant racist comments are the latest, and in my liberal family, this IS NOT going over well), he's overly aggressive with kids his age and cannot be left alone with them, he doesn't have any table manners and does not understand how to share food (if a bowl of potatoes is being passed around, for example, he will take half the bowl, oblivious to the fact that six more people need to be fed), etc. My stepsister just laughs this stuff off to adolescence , so no one in the family understands and most of the family and neighbors think he's a major jerk and don't want him around their kids . My son is his only friend. Very, very sad. And, you know what? In the end, it won't matter how smart he is. If he can't get along with people any better than he does, no one is going to care how smart he is.

[QUOTE=ivanhoe]Language/speech/motorskill/social problems issues are not part of add or adhd. No where in the DSM does it mention that is part of the problems. Add and adhd can be part of haveing asd also. Not all asd people are antisocial either. [/QUOTE]

In the diagnostic criteria listed in the DSM, the following are included:

(A1b) often has difficulty sustaining attention in tasks or play activities.

(A1c) often does not seem to listen when spoken to directly.

(A2d) often has difficulty playing or engaging in leisure activities quietly.

(A2f) often talks excessively

(A2h) often has difficulty waiting turn

(A2I) often interrupts or intrudes on others.

(D) There must be clear evidence of clinically significant impairment in social, academic, or occupational functioning.

(E) The symptoms do not occur exclusively during the course of a Pervasive Developmental Disorder, Schizophrenia, or other Psychotic Disorder and are not better accounted for by another mental disorder.

Obviously, social problems and language issues are INDEED a part of ADHD.

[QUOTE=pammar]Lillian, yes, your child doesn't sound ASD at all. I think you're right. Many Spectrum kids are misdiagnosed with ADHD, w hich is why I recommend, label or not, if the child has ASD symptoms to the max, heck, GET THE INTERVENTIONS and don't worry about the label. Even five years old is a late start to help kids with social/speech/motor skills deficits and can affect their entire lives. Maybe that's it. [/QUOTE]

Amen, sister!

I see way too much quibbling over the label. If an ADHD kid has:
1/speech delays or problems
2/social cluelessness
3/executive functnion problems
4/SID
4/motor skills problems

Guess what? Who cares about the diagnosis? Get the right interventions or you're cheating your kid

We had no ASD dx. at first, but I did fight for ASD intervetions and heck were they needed, but we didn't see that until he hit double digits!

http://www.adhdnews.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10080& PN=1

I bumped the thread, but I thought I would post it here, too.

I personally think that kids with ASD almost always have ADHD-like symptoms. And kids with bipolar disorder frequently have ADHD-like symptoms. I do think there are kids out there who have ADHD without ASD or bipolar disorder. But there is a huge overlap among the disorders, which makes it very challenging for doctors to diagnose accurately, especially in young children who are growing and changing rapidly.

For what it's worth, my 13-year-old son's first dx at age 9 was ADHD and anxiety. It is now pretty clear that he has a mood disorder, probably bipolar disorder, and we aren't even treating his ADHD symptoms because ADHD meds muddy the mood picture. My 11-year-old daughter's first dx at age 10 was depression, and she too has a mood disorder, probably bipolar disorder. My 8-year-old daughter's first dx was anxiety, and so far it's staying that way.

SmallMom38963.6967824074Then what's the difference between ADHD and ASD? This is a hot topic on one of my PDD boards. Many think ADHD is just another mild Spectrum disorder. The symptoms are identical and now people are saying even speech delays are part of ADHD. What symptoms DON'T they share? My son has ADHD. I don't think there is anything in his personality or behavior that would make someone think of autism. He's very social, makes great eye contact, loves to speak in public, has appropriate body language, and has an excellent sense of humor with a good understanding of sarcasm. I think the reason why ADHD is seen as part of the spectrum is because kids often are misdiagnosed with ADHD, when in fact they are on the spectrum, and because kids on the spectrum often share certain ADHD behaviors. lillian38964.2608680556Lillian, yes, your child doesn't sound ASD at all. I think you're right. Many Spectrum kids are misdiagnosed with ADHD, w hich is why I recommend, label or not, if the child has ASD symptoms to the max, heck, GET THE INTERVENTIONS and don't worry about the label. Even five years old is a late start to help kids with social/speech/motor skills deficits and can affect their entire lives. Maybe that's it.

I'm doing a search because we have a lot on the board about this. Here's one thing I found. It's a test to see if your kids may be on the spectrum.

http://www.childbrain.com/pddassess.html

I'll keep searching and posting .

BTW, my son scored a 4 on that test.

lillian38964.2795138889Many think it is on various boards as there are few differences. Thoughts? (Mine is that it often is).