What to do about defiance/talking back?

My son is 13 and has been like that.  My son's gets defiant and nasty during times of stress and pressure and when he doesn't want to do something.

You can't let it go but if he's yelling and talking back during a tantrum you just have to walk away and let him calm down.

I empathize with nothing seeming to work.  I truly believe that when these kids are under stress, they just can't control the mouth.

You do have to keep reinforcing that inappropriate language is not acceptable and that he has to respect authority but at the same time, you have to look at each situation.  You have to determine if he's being fresh or if it's stress related.

My son is very respectful and kind when he is not under stress or having an anxiety attack.

When my son starts talking back and nasty to him, I was told by the psychologist to not put up with it for more than 15 sec and leave the room. I tell my son I won't tolerate verbal abuse and will help him when he is calm.

Don't know if I helped or not.  You could also check out parenting books on ADD and see what they suggest for kids that age.

I agree, I don't think anyone needs to put up with the disrespect.  Sometimes it is so hard.  As parents we are suppose to stay calm, not react but act, etc.... ya! whatever!

I don't suggest doing this, but I'm just relating a incident that happened this weekend.

My husband and I have done pretty good with this, but the other night we told my son, 13 yo. to come in and his friend needed to go home now because  it was getting late.  My son turned to my husband and said something about being stupid, and started to walk outside.  Well, that did it.   My husband jumped up and took off out the door, my son had no idea that his dad was behind him.  He turned and there was my husband, right on his tail.  (it's not funny, but when he turned and saw my husband, he jumped a mile high!)  okay, it was kind of funny!  Husband took him by the arm and hauled him in his room and just started screaming at him, told him he was sick of getting treated like that, talked, no screamed, about why doesn't he just rip off his head and crap down his neck, how he doesn't treat his worst enemies the way our son treats his family, ya, it got really heated.  Husband told son not to come out of his bedroom for any reason and to get to sleep! 

My son was totally speechless.  He didn't come out of his room that nite.  Next day he went up to his dad and said, I'm sorry dad, I was really disrespectful and I am really sorry.  Can we start over?  I must sound like you did last night, when I talk to you disrespectful.   I hated that!

My husband listened to him and gave him a big hug and told him that he loved him, he told my son thank you for saying you're sorry, I appreciate that. 

Husband and I were both floored!!!!  That was a major positive step for my son.

Sometimes the contention can get so thick!  I hate it. 

I guess we have to keep plugging along!  Good luck!!!  We are here!

Kendra

My son has started using more foul language. 

My husband and I acknowledge that he is sick and its the anxiety that causes it but sometimes it's so hard.  Fortunately, he's just defiant with his teachers, not nasty.

Also, these kids test and test and test.  They have to learn that that they can't get away with these behaviours even though we understand why they are acting that way.

 My husband has lost his temper on occassion and yelled at my son.  It makes my husband feel bad but it scares my son. 

I find that when he is raging, and I leave the room and let him rage and just tantrum, he eventually calms down.

Last night he did apologize to me over reacting.

I get the brunt of the disrespect.  It's usually the mothers.  He cuddles one minute and trashes me the next.

I think that the oppositional defiant behavior is the hardest to deal with.

Oh, my 7 year old daughter has this so bad it's not funny.  The ODD is going to be the death of us!!!!  She's very rude, disrespectful, mean and nasty at times, but not always.  Though she could flip in a split second.  Annoys the living crap out of me.  And my husband.  But I"ve done some research on it and have learned to just walk away, tell her I won't deal with her when she's like that (and I swear...it takes EVERYTHING in me to not back slap her when I get the, "WHATEVER" dripping with attitude from her!!!).  I know she's the reason my hair has to be dyed every 4 weeks because the grey keeps coming back!!!   Her disrespect is so bad sometimes that right now, my mom hasn't talked to me in a week from when we went to visit last weekend!!!  I didn't engage in arguing with her, sometimes actually laughed and ALMOST never spanked her.  So now my mom thinks I'm a terrible parent, even AFTER I've sent her information on ODD.  Sigh....

And I swear, my husband argues with her EVERY morning.  Likes it's ever going to change.  I guess he doesn't see how dumb he looks arguing with a 7 year old.  Though I do admit...sometimes I absolutely and completely lose it.  On the bright side, I do have a potty mouth (like that's a bright side?? ), and my daughter will tell me that I don't have to use a cuss word every time!!!    Well, if you'd have listened the first 20 times I asked you to do or not do something.....I wouldn't have gone off the deep end and sounded like a pirate!!!! 

On the up side...I went this morning with her to get her in a clinical trial for a drug (Tenex...generic is guanfacine) that Shire is holding throught the U.S.  We actually have a clinic here that is doing it.  BUT, you have to take the kids off of all their other drugs and she is finally passing grade 1 and I can't take the risk that we're going to get a placebo (a 33% chance) before she's done for the summer.  I think she's passing enough to squeak by to get into grade 2 (where she's going to go to a public instead of the private school that she's in now and who point blank told me that they can't offer her the services she needs) and I don't want to jeopardize that.  So we're going to get in the trial (and I have NO doubt that she qualifies) mid-May.  And if she gets worse, we can always pull out of the trial with no obligation.  It's a win-win (HOPEFULLY) situation. 

Good luck with not strangling your child.  I know that thought passes through most of our minds.  Luckily for her, she's a really cute child....sometimes!  And just when I want to really strangle her...she'll sometimes grab onto me and hug me....crap.....foiled again!

You are truly a wonderwoman Wonderwoman.  Congratulations on being strong. 

Don't you hate judgemental people in shops!!!  Also don't you love it when other people don't see the importance of medication.  After an episode, you are the one left exhausted and defeated.  She didn't get her own way and she wanted attention.  She knew that if she came in and apologised that it would all be better.  So when she doesn't get her way again, she starts up again.  When she says that the bad part of her brain made her act mean did she point out to her that she controls her brain?  Maybe you need to talk to her when she is calm and medicated and explain that she can't blame her brain!  I am constantly being manipulated by my 14 year old and constantly trying to work out her battle plan.  It is so easy to see what goes on when you are on the outside looking in.

Hope you had a nice bath - be strong - we are all on the battle front, one step behind our kids!!!

Thanks guys.  We do the "ignore" thing for sure.  No attention is supposed to equal decreased backtalk.  Problem is sometimes I think it also impliedly tells him we are ok with it.  I'm just worn out from all the time outs. 

Yeah, and sad part is he actually is one of the most polite kids when he wants to be.  We've taught him to say "yes sir" "yes maam" "yes, please" "no thank you", etc... and his teachers have noted it.  When he's good, he's really good.  But when he's not happy with something he has to do or that he got a no to something he wants to do, that all changes.

Luckily, he doesn't know any swear words yet.  I'm in for it when he learns them.

I agree with all of these ideas.  Walking away is very hard for me!  

Here is one idea that I used when he was smaller - the spot!!!

When they are doing something you don't want them to do and they are being defiant have a spot on the ground and tell them to stay there and they can do the behaviour as much as they like. "I can see you feel that need to say those words, so stand here and you can say them as much as you like!"   Then walk away.  I used it when my son was smaller and worked well especially for attention seeking behaviour.  It seems to stop them in their tracks!   Each time they start up you take them to the spot and then walk away.  Re-directs and stops reaction.

You can never have enough ideas!!!!!!

Another thought!

I taught a 5 year old class a few years ago with a similar child.  Using the marble system, I would single out a behaviour I wanted to change and then tell him at the start of the day.  Every 5 mins or so I would catch him doing the right thing and put a marble into his cup, praising him for the right way.  "Good to see you..."  I would then make sure he filled his cup the first day  or even first session and get the reward.

If it was too long then try it for a total period of 1 hour.  Quick reward means that he can see the pay off for good behaviour.  When he slips, walk away. When he is calm tell him the behaviour was not right and stopped him from getting his reward.  Don't make a big deal of it.

Increase time for reward as well as slowly increase the time span between the marbles.  Tell other people within his earshot how well he is trying.  stickers also work well especially if they are into something like fairies!!!   I had a star shape for one child with you are a star on it so that each day the star would be filled with stars and they got to take the star home and put it on the wall. 

Rewards- don't have to be big - a jar with things they like to do like - go to the park, paint, make a cake can be a good idea.  Rewards need to happen frequently at first and need to be something that will motivate them.  For example you could pull the reward out of the jar as the day begins and then it could be something to work for. 

It's like training a puppy!!!!

Myjeffrey -my son too, can be an angel.  My husband and I just finished filling out all the forms for the neuropsychological test.  As  we were answering the questions, we kept stressing that all the defiance is brought about due to stress.

It is comforting to know we are not alone.   By walking away you are not reinforcing the behavior.  If anything, it tells  your son  that he won't get your attention while acting that way.  One good thing is your son is young and you have acknowledged the behavior now and are seeking help.  I always knew my son was a little too defiant for his age, but it's just now that I am finally getting help.  The earlier you get help, the easier it will be.

My son has not had temper tantrums in public - he saves it all up for home.

Thanks for the tips guys!  I haven't tried the marble thing yet, but I guess I'm just wondering "will I ever stop being exhausted by this?"  We do walk away, use time out, use time in, use rewards, use consequences....but he still does it.  Will it ever stop?  It seems like all these methods are just wearing me down (not to mention I have a 6 year old and a 5 month old and work full time as well) Just last night he threw a fit over toothpaste and said he wasn't going to brush his teeth, I'm not his friend anymore, etc... then not too much later after he calmed down and he went to bed he said he loved me and could i sing his "i love you song"    It really is like walking on egg shells. 

I have had my son, 13, throw a tantrum allegedly over not having the particular type of juice he wanted.

Was the definance over the toothpaste or do you think that just triggered it? Was it the idea of being told to do something that got him angry? Was he particularly frustrated earlier in the day over something? 

By the way, we have to remind my son EVERY DAY to brush his teeth and if we don't, he will be happy not to brush them.  Yet, he can't stand it if his face is dirty. Bad breath - okay - dirty face no - you figure it out.

Wow - doesn't it seem like when our kids are in a rage they are being invaded by some evil alien?

Joyce - we have actually thrown out half the junk on my son's floor and he doesn't care. 

I have had my son, 13, throw a tantrum allegedly over not having the particular type of juice he wanted.

Was the definance over the toothpaste or do you think that just triggered it? Was it the idea of being told to do something that got him angry? Was he particularly frustrated earlier in the day over something? 

By the way, we have to remind my son EVERY DAY to brush his teeth and if we don't, he will be happy not to brush them.  Yet, he can't stand it if his face is dirty. Bad breath - okay - dirty face no - you figure it out.[/QUOTE]

The problem was the flavor of the toothpaste.  We used to use those fruity ones (bad dyes, etc...) so no longer.  We recently tried a sample we rec'd from the dentist office which was a simple colgate paste.  He liked it.  Yeah, no dyes.  Well, he threw a fit over using it last night after I'd already put it on the tooth brush.  I walked away.  A few minutes later he realized it was the new kind he liked.  He brushed his teeth and apoligized, and then we read bed time story and off to bed.  But, these events are all too frequent and draining.  Nothing like the kicking of doors some people have reported, but I'm afraid its only a matter of time (he's only 5 now).  He has banged toys on the wall before and left scuff marks that we can't fix unless we repaint...and this wasn't done out of anger, but "play".

My husband is a dentist and our son is always getting out of brushing his teeth.  He is 14 with braces!!!  My husband just gives up!!!!   He'll try many things to get out of brushing them like standing there with the electric toothbrush on in the air!!!

What gets to him is when I say we are going in to have his braces checked and then he'll scrub them for an hour.  Last time he told them he used a whole tube of tooth paste!!

I also had some success when the hygenist and dental nurse told him off!! They has so much more effect than his father.  They also showed him pictures of decayed teeth!!!!   I told them to give him the total scare talk!!!

They are so exhausting - it is a marathon - so it's all about pacing yourself.  This board is a wonderful support. 

Wonderwoman,

Great job in not giving in and letter her have the goldfish and honeybuns!!  Sounds like you handled the drug store incident beautifully and kept your cool in the heat of the battle!  You were the victor in that little battle and your daughter learned from it even if you or she do not realize it at this point.

Isn't it amazing how our kids can get so "stuck" on an issue and just turn into jekel/hyde type raging personalities to get what they want?  It's how they cope with frustration........ just a maladaptive way of coping.

Have you ever read the book The Explosive Child by Ross Greene?  It's full of these stories.  Check it out if you haven't.....your local library may have it too.

Okiemom

Ok, I posted this on the sports thread, but here it is again.

Ok, problems here.  Last night was parent night at my son's little gym class.  Its a class for 4-5 year olds where they focus on various sports skills in a gym setting...they practice various skills during the year for all kinds of sports like soccer, football, baseball, golf, hockey, etc.. Part of the class is devoted to those skills and part to other fun stuff...they have some gymnastics equipment so they do some obstacle courses and they have some blow up trampoline type things where the kids get to jump and play.

Last season his coach was Chad.  That season was Sept through Jan.  Jeffrey rarely if ever got into trouble with Chad.  He was great.  Maybe one or two timeouts the whole season.  Chad moved in Jan, and this session is Jan-June & I'm afraid we won't make it til June.  Kevin is the new coach and its obvious he views Jeffrey as a pest.  The owner goes to our church and we haven't talked to him yet, but on the verge of doing so.  It seems like Jeffrey gets put to time out now 1-2 times per class.  And, boy did he deserve it last night.

I met DH at the class after work (he's a stay home dad).  I had to go home w/5 month old baby to nurse & took 6 year old daugher with me.  Dad stayed w/Jeffrey to participate in parent night.  Class is 1 hour.  The first 45 minutes were great per Dad.  Then, they started doing some hockey skills, and my son threw a huge temper tantrum because he wanted to be a goalie.  The coach was having the parents be goalies with the kids tring to get the puck in the goal.  So, coach put him in time out.  Rightly so.  When he was able to get out of timeout, the first thing he did was grab a hockey stick and throw it across the room striking another parent on the leg.  OMG!!!  DH says he was mortified.  The other parent was ok, but talk about humiliating to my husband.  He made Jeffrey apologize, and put him in time out.  But, then he got to finish the class.  I said I would have immediately brought him home...i.e. he lost his privileges for the rest of that class. 

I'm thinking of him missing class next week, but frankly the punishment seems like too late.  I told DH I plan to attend next week, and will give son explicit instructions about proper behavior before the class, and will pull him in the middle if he harms anyone.  What a nightmare.  Any suggestions?

P.S.  I too hope I'm not facing ODD.  Interesting, I do the make him giggle thing too which usually helps him snap out of it.  But DH isn't as on top of all this as I am.  He usually pushes and pushes until son explodes.  But DH is another story for another thread.

My goodness.  It is amazing how many situations we can talk about.  How do we do it??  

I don't have alot of input but just to add support.  We have had alot of success with the marble system.  But when he is in this zone, nothing makes sense to him and I just have to put him in his room to calm him down. 

Last night he was riding his bike and delibertly bumped into my dd.  (he's 7, she's 2)  I told him to come in immediately, he rode away and would not go in.  I finally caught him as he was riding.  I took him to his room, of course he was a raging bull at this point and as he slammed his door he screamed fat ass at me.  He threw a few things at his door and after a few minutes he calmed down.  But only to strat up with something else a while later.

Sure is amazing how so many of us can experience the same things with our children.  I don't think I have too much to add, but I can definitely say I understand.  The talking back is a huge one for me as well.  Normally my son is a very sweet little guy, but when he gets frustrated with his homework, or even the minute he hears "It's time to start your homework", he turns into a different child.  It is extremely frustrating.  I try to reason with him and he gets mouthier.  He raises his voice, I raise mine, and we both end up in tears.  I actually use the time-out chair, and he sits there until he calms down, and then I leave the room to calm down myself.  When we are both calm, I try an approach that lets him know that I understand how he feels.  I'll say something like, "I know it's frustrating when the math is difficult - I understand why you're mad".. it sounds kind of "SuperNanny-like"..lol.. but it does work with my son.

I've tried the marble system too, but as many good things as he was racking up, they'd all so quickly get taken away with the talking back.  I like the idea of the jar with different rewards in it - I think I will try that one..  get him involved with picking the rewards to put in the jar.

Good luck to everyone.

"The Explosive Child" is a great book. I took it out of the library and it made me feel better because it gave some kind of explanation about my son's behaviour.

I'm going to buy it for my growing collection of ADD and ADHD books.

Our kids act like other non ADD kids but everything is magnified 100 -500%. 

[QUOTE=Wyatt's Mom]Does his new coach know he is ADHD? Maybe he just needs to be educated on how to deal with Jeffrey better.   Maybe Jeffrey is just missing Chad.[/QUOTE]

My DH is a soft spoken person who isn't very confrontational.  He is usually with my son at this class, and no, he hasn't ever approached the new coach about anything.  Technically, jeffrey hasn't been diagnosed with anything yet either, so there isn't much to tell on that front.  His doctors want to hold off to see if its a phase that will pass.  We did give his preschool teachers a list of techniques we use when he's difficult which helped tremendously in preschool, but I don't know how appropriate it would be to give a set of 2 page instructions to a coach like this.  The coach is a college student by the way...and is the kind of jock type of guy who in my dh's opinion couldn't give a rat's axx with any instructions we'd give anyway.  Last week I told him we should just go straight to the owner who we know from church and talk with him.  There have been some weeks when jeffrey has had time outs and my DH couldn't figure out why.  I told him I would immediately have went to the coach to figure out why, but my DH has let it drag on too long without addressing it.  Like I said, he's very nonconfrontational.