room stripped; talk of killing self | ADHD Information
My 6 year old did the same thing to us. I was so scared! I called our behavioral pediatrician and she said that she doesn't get as concerned when they are saying it out of frustration or anger. They just don't have the words to use to tell us they are hurt or anger. I agree with all of the posts to contact your doctor about this. My doctor said to tell our son that we don't talk like that (she said put it into a category of swearing). We did just that and we haven't heard talk of it since. He was saying the same exact things..I am a bad person....he wanted to die....ect... I truly believe that he didn't have the words to explain how he was feeling. We have tried to give him the words and talking with his doctor has helped alot!
I know how hard and frightening this can be!!!! Hang in there...contact your doctor...know that you are NOT alone.
Hmmm after I thought about it and remembered it--I never TOLD anyone and neither did the other kid before the attempts.So I think the parents here are right--it's a difficulty and scary but it's also likely a lack of the language to explain how the child is feeling at that age.
Hey there... I don't have much advice... my son has done the whole "I'm stupid, I never do anything right" routine, but has never said he would kill himself! That would scare me!
Also, just wanted to say, HUGE KUDOS for you for following through on taking away things from her room. I am constantly threatening to take away his toys, but I NEVER DO. I know, BAD lol Its just such a hassle! And when he is being punished, I feel as if I am right along with him!
liveandlove:You might want to read Ogram's posts on the "marble system". Can't remember the exact forum name [like that's new]
Lots of parents are finding it helpful and I thought it was pretty sensible and looked fairly easy to implement. Lotsa positive reinforcement there...
[QUOTE=vickie]In addition to the other good advice you have received, give her the appropriate words to use when she feels that way. They do not know how to express anger or frustration and need coaching on this.[/QUOTE]
Good point!
At this point, you don't know if it's the meds or not. Try changing the med and see if it helps. We went through something similar last summer, and we had not a clue if her depression and anger were just emotions or med-induced. Turned out to be the med Concerta.Tell the psychiatrist. The other folks here are right--could be the meds, could be emotional.
I've been wrong more than once and I don't believe one should overreact but I also know that kids DO commit suicide [research this] more often than we think they do.
If the kid is having a tantrum THEN wanting to die that says something. Perhaps embarrassment, disgust and any number of other emotions that are difficult to articulate for an adult, let alone a child.
This one is tough for me because I feel for you but my clients who said that to me were *adults*. My techniques for them [which worked] are not necessarily the ones that would work with a child because they can't articulate well enough.
As a medicated child I attempted suicide on my medication at 10 years old so I *know* that it's a reality. A friend's sister attempted suicide at 8 by eating an entire bottle of baby aspirin when her parents were arguing all night about divorcing. I believe that kid knew exactly what she was doing.
The question is for me--WHY does this child want to die? As an ADHD'er she's not "polite" enough to hide her feelings.
I'm probably in the minority but I've never felt that suicidal feelings are a manipulation attempt. I've always dealt with them as being very real feelings for people. They may be passing feelings but I believe they're real and I've generally found there's a precipitating event.
If she were an adult I'd have to wonder if her feelings of "being dumb/stupid" have somehow led to her feeling "less than deserving to live".
As a parent, this must be incredibly painful.
A passing thought... If you have "over the hedge" I would watch it with her and point out that the ADHD squirrel saves everyone BECAUSE he has ADHD at the right place, and the right time. In fact--I think it should be required watching for ADHD people.
I also think you should call. Is she taking meds? Whether it "just talk" or not, the poor thing should not have to live like this and neither should the rest of you. She is hurting. In addition to the other good advice you have received, give her the appropriate words to use when she feels that way. They do not know how to express anger or frustration and need coaching on this.Just when I thought things were getting better, now that the meds seem to be straightened out...
About two weeks ago my daughter started saying "I'm so dumb; I'm the stupidest person in the world," etc. when she got in trouble for something. I thought it was a play for sympathy to get out of trouble, so I ignored it. It continued, and started cropping up other times. Last week, around Wed., she added, "I want to kill myself." SHE'S SIX!!! Of course, I freaked. Then she started saying that a lot more, so I wondered if it was to get the attention...
The next time she threw a temper tantrum and pulled the "dumb/stupid" routine, I sat her down, held her shoulders, got in her face and said, "That is NOT true. You are very smart, talented, funny, and creative. Stop saying that." She proceeded to roll around on the floor in her room sniffling and mumbling about being dumb for 15 minutes or so, while I resolutely went about my business and ignoring it. Afterward she got up and joined the family and we had a great evening. Nothing else happened for a couple of days.
On Sunday she threw a temper tantrum again (over helping me clean her room) and shouted, "I hate myself! I wish I were dead! I'm going to kill myself!" I immediately sat her down and asked, "Do you really mean that? Do you really want to be dead and not play and not get hugs and not read your Junie B. books?" She mumbled no. "Then don't say that." She hasn't said it again...
...however, she copped such an attitude for the rest of the day, was so disrespectful and defiant and flat mean to her sister that we ended up stripping her room of all her toys and books. You know, it starts with one privilege being taken away after 2 warnings, then another, and then I'm dragging her little bookshelf out of her room and thinking to myself, "When did I sign up for this?"
She has "earned" back a couple of things (by not fighting/being rude and by doing what she's asked when she's asked). And the dumb/stupid comments and threats to kill herself have stopped, at least for now.
So did I over-react? Should I let her psychiatrist know? (We don't have a scheduled appointment for a couple of months.) Should I be looking into counselling for her? Has anyone else dealt with this? I'm much calmer about everything now, this being Thursday, but I was an absolute wreck Sunday, Monday, and much of Tuesday. I have since questioned her (at calm cuddly times) about who she has heard talking about killing themselves or wanting to be dead, and if anyone calls her dumb/stupid. She says no, that's just how she felt in her head. I'm worried about that.
Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Gin
The only time my son spoke the words that your daughter is saying is when is took stratterra. It made him depressed. He was 8 t the time. As soon as we stopped the medicine, he stopped saying all that. He has never said it again, and he may not even remember it.
It also had a hard time on adderall xr, but it was more being aggitated and getting in the kids faces due to whatever that med did.
He is on concerta. He is about to try the daytrana patch.
Just my thoughts, what meds, if any, is she taking???
Oh my. Sounds like my son, who happens to be 13 now, but when he was in fourth grade he talked the same way and pulled the same suicide talk.
You did not over react and yes, call the psychiatrist. Always play it safe.
We were scared and concerned because my son's behavior was indicating a problem. Long story short, the first therapist sat down with him and explained how parents react to that kind of talk.
The therapist told us that he wasn't going to kill himself, he was just talking.
This is kind of a common thing when ADD kids tantrum - they kind of run off at the mouth.
She indicated a problem - she thought Aspergers - again, long story - she wasn't the right therapist.
My son at 12, actually tried a feeble suicide attack after a very explosive rage.
The current therapist met with my son. He wanted him to sign a safety document saying he wouldn't hurt himself. Ofcourse, he refused.
Definately tell the psychiatrist. Always better to play it safe. You did not over react. No way -I've done the same thing.
My current therapist said that when my son starts talking like that again, and he has, to immediately, take him to the emergency room. My therapist feels my son is just blowing off steam and we will end up not going to the hospital but he feels my son has to know that these threats are taken seriously.
The other day my son was raging and started the suicide talk. I immediately picked up the phone and "pretended to call the hospital." The suicide talk stopped.
I also wish I could hug you, I know how tough it is feeling like from the moment you get out of bed everything is a constant battle and feeling like a failure as a parent trust me I have spent many nights crying myself to sleep about this very thing.i wont begin to tell you I am near as knowledgeable as some of the moms on here, I too have a son who doesnt do well with a reward system. But over the years I have learned to pick my battles, or he would be in trouble 24/7. I start with the things that bother me the most, right now its the aggression and refuseing to do anything. I only work on one or two things at a time or it is to overwhelming for him, and constantly remind him that this is what we are working on, then once we get better at one of those things move on to another. I agree some are zero tolerance things ex. hitting. thats an automatic time out we have a chair placed faceing the room but sitting in a corner he has to go to and his time doesnt start till he is calmed down, no screaming and yelling if he gets up I walk him back over (or carry him sometimes) and sit him back down till he gets the point, then before he gets out he has to explain to me what he did and why it was wrong, this has really started helping.The girls just got home. Once again, I'm hiding in the basement. Within 30 minutes of being home, my eldest yelled at me not once but three times, pulled the mean, angry face and crossed arms thing several times (once when I offered to get out her favourite toy for her!), ripped open a bag of meds and toiletries and threw the contents everywhere (looking for said favourite toy), ignored me when I tried to stop her so I could help her find what she was looking for, ignored me calling her and trying to talk with her (not in-trouble talk, just talk), TALKED IN A VERY LOUD TONE OF VOICE FOR 20 MINUTES STRAIGHT RIGHT IN MY FACE/EAR, BUT GOT ANGRY AT ME FOR PULLING BACK AND ASKING HER TO LOWER HER VOICE, and accused me of being a bad mother.
Not even an hour home, and we're all back in hell.
On the kids need different things, this is true. But house rules should be house rules and not change child to child. My 5 year old is so much morne consitent with making her bed, brushing her teeth, picking up her things.....etc etc than her 12 1/2 year old sister. The 12 year old still has to do all of these things ADHD or not. She just may do it in pieces, or need me to baby step her along the way. In the end they both have to make their beds and pick up their things. The 12 year olds room still ALWAYS looks messier than the 5 year olds, but the rule is the same. No evening tv until all other things are completed, homework, picking up, bathing....etc. Sometimes the 5 year old gets double tv time as she finished faster, or more efficiently. Again same rules. We have the same rules as to how to behave with the rest of the family. If you are mean or picking fights you cannot be with the rest of the family. You must be in your own room and be grumpy there. When they feel they are ready to be part of the group, they can come out and must talk to me about it first. this one took a LOT of work, but works for us. Same rule for everyone. We are a family and if you want to be out interacting with us, you have to be nice. I dont take additional things away, just send them to be grumpy on their own until theya re ready to talk about it. Fake apologies dont count. Wish I could say it is easy, but I am exhausted every night, but do see my work paying off slowly we are getting there the older they get.
ok just saw your second post. DO Not have a discussion with her, at all, no talking until she can talk reasonably. Tell her this once and send her to her room (or wherever you choose) to be alone until she can calm down. You may need to help her calm down the first few times, teaching breathing (THIS WORKS) and counting. Tell her you will not talk until hse can be calm, if she yells or anything walk away. DO NOT engage until she is calm, unless it is to hold her on your lap and help her calm down. Then when she is, first talk about how why she is flipping out. If she starts to flip out again, walk away, Keep doing it. She needs to know you mean business and wont talk about anything until she calms down. All I have to do my daughter now is point. Occasionally count to three, but you get the picture. Okay, it's Monday the 21st and I am much calmer today, seeing as how we got a bit of a break; the in-laws took both girls for the weekend. Good, as we all needed the break, but bad because I spent the entire time "catching up" on everything I haven't been able to do, and, of course, didn't get half of it done and am feeling a bit frustrated about that. My issue, I know, but it just drives me nuts to live in a house that is in complete chaos physically (surrounding-wise) as well as emotionally. Oh, yeah, then there's relationships, the job, hobbies (ha!)... Did I mention that grandma feeds them sugar and lets them watch movie after movie for the entire time they're away so we pay for the break in other ways as well after they come back home? Sometimes we just have to do it, though.No mention of killing self since that last chat about it. This is good.
Have put stuff back in room while she was away. We'll see how that works out.
Have made the decision to yank her out of the public school system and move her to a smaller, much more supportive private school. We'll be eating a lot of soup in the next year, BUT she'll be getting weekly art lessons, choir & music, intramural sports, and French in addition to the regular instruction. As she LOVES all these things and will be getting much more one-to-one attention and direction, we are hoping this will help all the way around.
Hubby is very supportive, but has a dissertation due June 1st... He's lost SO much time due to all of this that we're both just really pushing for him to get it done. Not to mention that him bringing in a salary would be nice, as well!
As to the difference between "musts/must-nots" and annoyances: I agree. 100%, totally agree. The Explosive Child is my second Bible, with the whole Plan B thing. Having said that: I get tired. Things DO annoy me. And I can't always ignore them and they do end up raising the stress level of the house. Also, how do I explain to my 3-year-old that yes, she must still brush her teeth tonight even though I've just let her older sister off the hook? Or, more realistically, how can reasonably have different expectations for two kids about things like cleaning their rooms, when there is no OBVIOUS (i.e. physical) disability to explain these differences? 3-year-olds don't get it. I don't get it half the time! I understand that different kids need different things, BUT I also understand that one of the important keys to child-rearing is consistency, and I just want a little bit of it around here!!! (End of rant...)
Last, how does one effectively discipline & punish (yes, I understand they are separate issues) when the child is a) bright enough to find a way around most systems, and b) doesn't (seem to) care about the vast majority of punishments. For instance, she took a small, hard plastic doll house and pressed it down -- hard -- on her younger sister's leg in a twisting motion the other day. Immediate time out. Came out, apologized, and began again. Time out and privileges for playing with said doll houses for the rest of evening suspended. Sent to get ready for bed. Got ready, came down, apologized, and very calmly began picking fight with sister again "just because." Time out followed by apology and attention diversion with helping to get snack ready. Did that. Immediately started another fight and got physical with dad. Took away privilege after privilege. Just does not seem to care at all. (Other days an angry look from dad or me will send her into a spasm of guilty grief...) Finally sent her to bed early -- THAT she cares about -- but it's pointless because she keeps herself up screaming and crying and coming out of her room saying she's sorry and begging to be let up for just five minutes, and then is a beast the next morning due to lack of sleep. So mom & dad, once again, are punished along with everyone else.
You know that old Mark Twain parenting advice about sealing the child in a barrel and feeding him/her through the knot hole? Some days I really feel like that!
Gin
GinGin39223.3918287037An update: she has dropped all mention of killing herself; I have contacted the doctor. Still saying she's stupid, etc., and am trying to help her use more accurate words; lots of cuddles as well (when she'll let me).
I've read about the marble system, and I'm too tired to try it. Sounds good; sounds just like the poker chip system we were on very consistently for months which did nothing except allow her to do the easy tasks enough to get a basic reward and then quit. We tried taking away the easy tasks, and she stopped altogether. We tried adding in one or two easy tasks and massively lowering the chip amounts, upping the rewards for, say, 20 chips (trying to make the "harder" tasks -- you know, like brushing teeth -- more attractive because of their higher chip amounts) and all she did was perform the easy tasks over and over and over and over and over again until she got what she wanted. I'm just not up for another system right now.
Currently am hiding away in the basement crying, because the alternative is screaming at her. What in the heck is life going to be like when she's a teen? All it is now is fight, fight, fight, fight, fight. And, oh yeah, when she gets bored, she fights some more. I am so sick and tired of fighting all the blasted time, over EVERYTHING!!! Food, clothing, chores, playing, hygiene. Literally EVERY BLASTED THING and I'm just so tired...
And, frankly, it really ticks me off that she's such an angel outside of the house for everyone else. Why the heck???
Today she wanted me to brush her hair. Then she couldn't/wouldn't sit still and kept hunching up her shoulders, making it impossible. Then she'd yell at me when I'd hit a tangle -- trying to be gentle, but when she's wiggling and hunching I can't help it -- and tell me what a bad mom I am and that I'm doing it on purpose and I'm mean and I really just want to pick her up and shake her until her eyeballs fall out. Listen, you little &^%$#, you have no idea of the friendships and jobs and things and peace of mind I've sacrificed for you!!!
I know she's six. I know she's struggling. I know I'm supposed to be the grown-up and be loving and kind and patient, but I just really, really hate her right now and I don't know how much more I can take of this.
And watch, because I've lost it and am feeling this way, I'll bet you anything that for the rest of the day she'll be an absolute sweetie and loving and fun to be around and so I'll go to bed tonight hating myself even more because I thought this way this morning...
Have I mentioned that all of her crap is still in my room because every time we give something back she lips off or hits her sister or something and it gets taken away again? My bedroom used to be my kid-free sanctuary and I really want it back.
I am really hating all of this right now.
Gin
GinGin I really want to hug you in person, but this will have to do
My oldest was like that somewhat..fought us every step of the way. Each day was one long battle....and it does wear on you terribly. And like your dd she could be so sweet and kind, and it would give you hope only for it to be dashed again later...
The difference between you and I is that I floundered about with no dx, no therapy, and NO CLUE!! You have gotten some help, and she is in some therapy, so that is a step in the right direction. You have no idea how often I wish that I could turn back time and obtain meds and therapy for my daughter. I dream of how she could have been....but that is pointless.
Stick with it and know that it is perfectly OK to dislike your child,we all do at times, just know that the love is still there, and continue forging on to get her the help that she needs.
Gin,
I know exactly what you mean.. Will is the same way. I end up hating myself and he's fine, smiling and happy.
And it never fails, we have a dr's appt this afternoon and wouldn't you know.. It's been a better week than usual. That makes it so hard to say everything I've been feeling and dealing with..
Why can't he just be his worse when we're heading to the dr???
I'm so glad you taught her to say what she needs. That's a much better situation for both of you.
I've read about the marble system, and I'm too tired to try it. Sounds good; sounds just like the poker chip system we were on very consistently for months which did nothing except allow her to do the easy tasks enough to get a basic reward and then quit. We tried taking away the easy tasks, and she stopped altogether. We tried adding in one or two easy tasks and massively lowering the chip amounts, upping the rewards for, say, 20 chips (trying to make the "harder" tasks -- you know, like brushing teeth -- more attractive because of their higher chip amounts) and all she did was perform the easy tasks over and over and over and over and over again until she got what she wanted. I'm just not up for another system right now.
Behavioral modification/token systems don't work on every child. And with some children, they work for a while and then stop. Other kids do well on them. It's a personality thing.
You have to figure out what motivates YOUR kid. I had one foster kid who would do anything for money and another that would try hard so my ex hub would take him out to play foozball.
BTW this kid sounds SMART if she can figure that out
Currently am hiding away in the basement crying, because the alternative is screaming at her. What in the heck is life going to be like when she's a teen? All it is now is fight, fight, fight, fight, fight. And, oh yeah, when she gets bored, she fights some more. I am so sick and tired of fighting all the blasted time, over EVERYTHING!!! Food, clothing, chores, playing, hygiene. Literally EVERY BLASTED THING and I'm just so tired...
Gin, Gin I can see you're in great pain. And what I'm about to suggest is radical and difficult and will take time but it may stop some of the fighting. I'll put it at the bottom of the page when I'm finished okay?
And, frankly, it really ticks me off that she's such an angel outside of the house for everyone else. Why the heck???
The stakes are different there--that's why. Moms always take the brunt!
Do you have supports? A hubby to help? A good sitter? A mom's group you can join?
Today she wanted me to brush her hair. Then she couldn't/wouldn't sit still and kept hunching up her shoulders, making it impossible. Then she'd yell at me when I'd hit a tangle -- trying to be gentle, but when she's wiggling and hunching I can't help it -- and tell me what a bad mom I am and that I'm doing it on purpose and I'm mean and I really just want to pick her up and shake her until her eyeballs fall out.
Somebody has to get off this merry-go-round and it is going to have to be YOU--she can't. She's dragged you into her world of hurt and you need to get out of it regardless of any past mistakes you may feel guilty about making.
Listen, you little &^%$#, you have no idea of the friendships and jobs and things and peace of mind I've sacrificed for you!!!
I know she's six. I know she's struggling. I know I'm supposed to be the grown-up and be loving and kind and patient, but I just really, really hate her right now and I don't know how much more I can take of this.
You feel "stuck" from the sounds of it. I think you LOVE the kid--you just don't LIKE her very much right now. Keep those differences in mind
And watch, because I've lost it and am feeling this way, I'll bet you anything that for the rest of the day she'll be an absolute sweetie and loving and fun to be around and so I'll go to bed tonight hating myself even more because I thought this way this morning...
Don't. We all have our moments and there are no perfect moms.
Have I mentioned that all of her crap is still in my room because every time we give something back she lips off or hits her sister or something and it gets taken away again? My bedroom used to be my kid-free sanctuary and I really want it back.
Then you're punishing yourself--not the kid and she sounds smart enough to know it.
I am really hating all of this right now.
Punishment is not working on this child. She's not "getting it". If you punish a child more than 3x for the same thing--it's NOT working no matter what anyone else does with their kid, or how you were raised as a child. You can't keep "upping the ante" or you are going to wind up bashing her one in frustration.
My mom used to say, "Better the kid cries than the parent"--and in this case, she's right.
Make a list for yourself. Decide which problems are "cardinal sins" [hitting people] and which ones [room cleaning] are mainly "annoyances". Stop worrying annoyances. You'll just lose ground.
ADHD kids can drag you into their drama. They require high stimulus and if you're yelling and punishing and flipping--you're providing it. It's not that you want to--it's the frustration of dealing with a difficult child.
It sounds to me as if this child drives you right up the wall and when she's got you into an emotional state--stops before you whack her one, gets apologetic/behaves/goes angelic, etc. and you are collapsing from guilt.
No parent deals with that very well. Honest.
It's common in foster kids--it practically comes with the territory so that's where I think I might have some ideas.
What's done is done. Whatever has happened between you and your dd before is DONE. Today is a new day. You have the opportunity to correct this.
PART I:
Let's take your example of hair brushing because it's a simple one:
The SECOND she starts, YOU stop brushing and calmly say, "WHO asked me to do this? One more complaint and you can brush your own hair." When she starts--walk out of the room. Do NOT listen to any apologies/whining etc. You are FINISHED. Be stubborn.
Now she may freak because the game changed. Fine, let her have a hissy fit or whatever BUT DO NOT BRUSH HER HAIR.
This kid is playing the "You're a bad mommy game" and because of your guilt--you're falling for it.
The next time she asks you again--ask her "are you going to behave this time?" Then if she starts up again, do the same thing.
I KNOW this is difficult. And as much as you think she's trying to be a brat she honestly isn't. But she WILL play your responses if she can because that's what kids do
Now part 2 is making HER responsible by asking "what are YOU going to do about this?" in one form or other.
And part 3 is praising to the sky ANY behavior that is compliant. Always say "thank you" if the child does something like bring you a cup or whatever.
It takes time and it's not easy with drama kids. They wear you out to the bone. But you CAN shoot for and get, better behaviour.
Today is a NEW day. And it can be better. Honest
Gin
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Sorry you are having such a hard time. I've felt exactly the same way and didn't think it would get any better. I remember that everything was a battle, and how much a failure I felt at times trying to deal with a child that never gives up. I didn't feel like a very good mother most of the time. With hard consistent work I guarantee things will get better. My 16 yr. old can still be tough but its not a constant battle-even though he always has to have the last word, and he's always right. Your good days will eventually turn into more of the norm.Well this wasnt my ADHD child, it is my younger one. She is the kid everyone calls willfull and a handful (mind you NOT the ADHD kid
.) She fought with me every second of every day about every thing from age 2 1/2 until about 6 months ago. She also had terrible separation anxiety. So not only did she fight me she only wanted me, it was awful. At one point last year, this was at age 4 still tantrumming and bucking everything, I decided NO MORE! I sat her down and told her I would no longer do this. That is she wasnt being reasonable she would go to her room until she could be. I did this FAITHFULLY. Every single time she argued, said "NO!" at the top of her lungs, flung herslef on the floor, whatever I brought her to her room. Quite often physically carried her. No words just walking , or dragging her there. I put her in and shut the door. Many, many times she would kick the door, scream pry the door open, run past me, all the things you can think of. If she left the room, I walked (calmly) to her took her hand put her back in (no words). Then I would stand outside her door literally and if she opened the door I pointed and shut it again. Once she stopped screaming I would go in give her hug and ask if she was ready to talk about it. Some days that set her off and I would leave and start again, some days she would say yes then start laughing when I began the lecture , all kinds of reactions. I would work on calming techniques, breathing cointing to 20, whatever. We never talked about it until she was calm. Once she knew this rule (it took a long time) I started just sending her there and if she refused did the 1,2,3 thing. Then would tell her it was her choice when to come out, but not until she was calm and ready to talk. We still do this now. About 6 monhts ago she turned a corner and I truly believe part of it was getting her to know it was me in charge and NOT her. Also that she got NO attention with her fits. She has not been diagnosed with ADHD (jury still out on that one she is only 5), so an ADHD child would take even more work(and patience) than that, but this worked for me and VERY well with a friend of mines' autistic (severely) son also. No talking or debating during a fight. It is very hard to do and makes things worse for a bit, but at least once it is time to discuss what happened everyone is calm.