Help! | ADHD Information
""Just from what little you post...... I do think that your son may be manipulating the situation too.....to retain the power. I remember so well the days past when I felt my son "ruled" our household and we were just walking on eggshells all the time. ""
I agree! I, too, have a smart one (dd age 7 Concerta and Tenex) who we walked on eggshells around prior to medicating. We had been doing behavior therapy prior and continued after the meds started. At first , I was ready to chuck the progam, she was doing so well. But then she began to realise she wasn't able to run the show as much, or so I suspected.
I tried involving her in the rule making - but she wasn't exactly fair with the rules as applied to her little sister. One day, I had had enough. I got in her face and told her mom and dad are the boss and will set the rules and discipline accordingly, not her, and I was tired of her thinking otherwise. We told her we worked too hard to put up with the disrespect she was showing us. I said she was in control; it was her choice, if she lived by our rules, showed us respect , she would earn rewards. Or, if she chose to break rules and show disrespect, she would lose privileges. She was also informed she had a right to disagree, but to do so respectfully. I think that helped to gear her control issues in a more positive direction.
I had to remind her of this several times a day as we moved forward (behavior therpay included), but she is catching on and actually seems happier because of it. I guess children need and like boundaries. Also, I think ADHDers aren't always perceptive of how their actions are interpreted by others. You have to break it down for them.
You son is older and his behaviors a bit more severe than my dd's. It probably will take a long time before you notice change. Remember, he has practiced these behaviors for years and will need a lot of practice of new behaviors before they become a habit.
I was just going to post this morning but was so upset I didn't feel I could type any words.
This sounds so much like Will that it scares me, only he is almost 8 years old..
I am at a loss for words but feel just a slight bit better knowing that I am not alone in this, although, most of the time that is exactly the way I feel.
Right now we are seeing our ped but I'm going to ask for a referral for someone else. But I don't know who..
What kind of dr should I ask to see?
Yesterday at school, he took his scissors and cut his shirt and shorts in 9 different places..It scares me to think that what if next time it isn't his clothing.. This is not normal 1st grade behavior and I don't know if I'm over reacting or what. I don't know if he did it because he was bored and ADHD or if he was upset or angry or sad. And I can't get anything out of him besides I don't know..
By the way, he is taking Metadate CD 30 mg and Ritalin in the pm, only 5mg.
I'm sorry to hijack your post, Lib1. I'm just so lost....and sad.
You should see a child psychiatrist. Ideally psychopharmocologist, but they are not that easy to find. Many people on here however are manged by their pediatricians. Some of this stuff WILL resolve with the right medication mix. These kids feel so out of control. Us "contorolling" them must be so smothering. Sometimes we have to manipulate back. Make them THINK they are making the decisions. It's always best to break everything down into choices. They dont want to do homework now, they dont have to, but lose a later in the day privelege, for us that is computer/tv time..............they think they are getting their way by not doing homework after school until the first night they realize they ran out of time for leisure stuff.My daughter is 12 and has the maturity of an 8 year old. Very hard to always remember that. I find it hard anyway. She is SO teenagerish, but still believes in Santa
It's hard for me too..
I'm always telling him to act 8... Not 4...I don't know why I say that, it only makes him mad.. But what doesn't?
[QUOTE=Willsmama]Actually she didn't see him do it.. I found him that way when I picked him up from school..
I think what I'm afraid of is, what if someone angered him while he was holding the scissors. What would he do then?
I just don't know when to take him seriously.. He just told his little brother to shut up or I'll kill you..
I never took that seriously before, but maybe I should.....
UGH.. I just wanna hide under the covers for about 10 years...
[/QUOTE]If I had a dime for everytime my sibs told ME to shut up or they'd kill me when I was a child, I could retire. I'm still here and BIGGER than they are muwhahahaha...
Just try to make it clear that that's not acceptable
I don't know what Will would do if another kid piffed him off while he was holding scissors. Surely it HAS happened in school that he was holding scissors and another kid bugged him before this.
Didja check the school basement for bodies? [just kiddin' ya--you sound like you need some cheer]
If the teacher didn't see him cutting up his clothes then its pretty obvious he wasn't waving his scissors around in a threatening manner or some other kid would have narked him out. And he obviously didn't take them off first--'cause THAT would worry me...
I wrote a post about kids doing weird things--'cause they do. Not because they are ADHD or mentally unhinged, most of the time they just DO.
Do you remember when YOU were a kid?
yes, I do..And I don't think I'd be here today if I acted like Will does.. [QUOTE=Diane V]My daughter is 12 and has the maturity of an 8 year old. Very hard to always remember that. I find it hard anyway. She is SO teenagerish, but still believes in Santa
[/QUOTE]OMG! I'm 49 and THERE's NO SANTA!!!!
The Easter bunny LIED!!!!!!
MetisRebel39213.6237037037 [QUOTE=Willsmama]yes, I do..And I don't think I'd be here today if I acted like Will does..[/QUOTE]
Surprising how adaptable parents can be, huh?
To Willsmama:
From my post it is obvious that I know how you feel. It is also obvious
that others do too considering the out pour of assistance and
understanding shown here. I feel lost, desperate, sad and out of control.
Every day is increasingly difficult because I have so little energy left to
deal with the issues so each day feels like the last day I can muster the
strength to deal. I feel like I have no advice to offer but at least we both
found our way here which is the best place to start--talking with parents
that have been through this.
We are mothers and it is devasting to feel like this is our child's future. It
breaks my heart every moment. What I do gather from reading everyone
posts is there is hope. I feel very hopeless but there is hope...we just
have to stick it out and help each other.
I am glad you found you way here. I am assured that these wise forum
members will provide you with guidance and comfort.
I wish you continued strength and improvement!
How do I go about finding a dr? I live in a small town and I don't know of anyone who could recommend someone.
I just have to thank each of you that posted replies here today. I have cried
all day...but your suggestions have given me strength to keep going. I
cannot express enough how much I appreciate your time and comfort. I
know where I can come when I feel like I have today. As you all have
experienced this is a day by day experience--thank you for the experience
today!
Thank you, Libs1.
I find it so ironic that you posted what you did today, of all days. I'm sure it's a sign, but I don't know of what yet..
I feel the exact same way and am so scared for Will...
The funny thing is, as I sat here worrying and wondering all day long, he actually had a good day in school, and got a special reward because he was caught being good..
Of course just minutes after he got home, I found a pair of scissors right next to him. I took the away and he was fine with it.. That's what I don't understand.. One minute he's fine, the next he's blowing up...
[QUOTE=Willsmama]I was just going to post this morning but was so upset I didn't feel I could type any words.
This sounds so much like Will that it scares me, only he is almost 8 years old..
I am at a loss for words but feel just a slight bit better knowing that I am not alone in this, although, most of the time that is exactly the way I feel.
Right now we are seeing our ped but I'm going to ask for a referral for someone else. But I don't know who..
What kind of dr should I ask to see?
Yesterday at school, he took his scissors and cut his shirt and shorts in 9 different places..It scares me to think that what if next time it isn't his clothing.. This is not normal 1st grade behavior and I don't know if I'm over reacting or what. I don't know if he did it because he was bored and ADHD or if he was upset or angry or sad. And I can't get anything out of him besides I don't know..
By the way, he is taking Metadate CD 30 mg and Ritalin in the pm, only 5mg.
I'm sorry to hijack your post, Lib1. I'm just so lost....and sad.
He probably *doesn't* know. It's too late after the event. What did he say to the teacher when she stopped him?
And believe it or not, I'm not sure cutting up clothes is all that weird. When I was a kid I cut up my mom's counter with a jacknife when I was mad at her. I had one foster kid who used to slide on the rear end to tear her track pants if she didn't like the colour!
And neither one of us ever served a jail sentence.
Kids are weird
[QUOTE=okiemom]
Libs....I am a little north of you in Edmond!
Have you attended a local CHADD mtg in OKC? I am on the board of
the central Oklahoma chapter.
[/QUOTE] Actually, I am way NW OKC. Small world! I
would love information on the support group clearly my husband and I need
it. It would be helpful to share resources/docs etc that others have found in
the area--we are so new to this. [QUOTE=Willsmama]
Thank you, Libs1.
I find it so ironic that you posted what you did today, of all days. I'm sure it's a sign, but I don't know of what yet..
I feel the exact same way and am so scared for Will...
The funny thing is, as I sat here worrying and wondering all day long, he actually had a good day in school, and got a special reward because he was caught being good..
Of course just minutes after he got home, I found a pair of scissors right next to him. I took the away and he was fine with it.. That's what I don't understand.. One minute he's fine, the next he's blowing up...
[/QUOTE]Kids have a fascination with scissors. Heck I'm an adult and I have a fascination with paper and scissors and arty things.
The "blowing up" is worrisome depending on age. How old is Will?
Actually she didn't see him do it.. I found him that way when I picked him up from school..
I think what I'm afraid of is, what if someone angered him while he was holding the scissors. What would he do then?
I just don't know when to take him seriously.. He just told his little brother to shut up or I'll kill you..
I never took that seriously before, but maybe I should.....
UGH.. I just wanna hide under the covers for about 10 years...
Metisrebel,
He'll be 8 next month.
But he has the maturity of a 4 yr old...
Libs....I am a little north of you in Edmond!
Have you attended a local CHADD mtg in OKC? I am on the board of the central Oklahoma chapter.
I know this whole thing is completely overwhelming and sometimes as Moms we feel like so powerless to help our children....but don't give up trying. Sounds like you've got one smart child. My son tests in the gifted IQ range although his paper grades don't reflect it due to his extreme organizational difficulties. Highly intelligent children many times have even more challenging behavioral issues at home and sometimes school because they are smart enough to learn to manipulate situations to their advantage. My son does this! Sometimes we have to call their bluff! Okiemom
we are happy with Santa, much easier keeping the spirit for a 5 year old.............peope keep saying tell her she's in middle school! Can't do it...............she has enough issues, let her LOVE Santa................we do too I struggle typing this as I am crying my eyes out so hard to see the
screen. My son is almost 16 and diagnosed about 4 months ago with
ADHD and possibly bipolar.
He is very intelligent, an only child, very driven, and competitive. Thus, it
seems to have taken until now to determine it is ADHD rather than just
strong willed personality. He has been a high achiever and has high goals
and aspirations. All of which seem to be fading away.
Our main problem right now is his anger. For a while he was rountinely
threatening my husband with violence-my son's step-father that is very
involved and very loving and caring of my son dispite all the issue-in fact,
my son is probably closer to him than anyone. There always seems to be
a very small triggering event--ie forgot something, etc. He has punched
holes in our walls. He tends to say the most hateful things he can come
up with. He is good at it because he is so perceptive. We walk on
eggshells. I used to could not wait to see him walk through the door.
Now I hold my breath praying his mood will be okay.
Dr. has him on abilify 10 mg for the anger. We started at 15 mg but he
could not get up and stay awake for school. I can say the rage has
decreased in that he is not standing in the front yard yelling for his step-
father to come outside so he can "take care of him." However, he still
makes threats--yesterday he stated if my husband did not shut up he
was going to break his legs and arms.
We are not a violent home. I do not and did not use corpral
punshiment--and if one more person tells me well I should have--I am
going off! In fact, our lives focus on our son. Every evening and weekend
is spend in activities for him. I took a pay cut in my career so I could
work from home to be available to him. My husband's job is very flexible.
In short I feel like we do everything for him and sacrafice for him
willingly...but now for what.
He is also on Adderall XR 50 mg in morning and 25 in afternoon. Tried
Daytrana-did not work. Started with standard Adderall which worked
much better than XR and he was not at all angry on it but it just wears off
to quick. When I complained about his continued oppositional behavior
Dr. added Tenex 1 mg in morning 1 mg at night.
We go to counseling once a week.
Despite improvements in school, my son lacks motivation to do things he
used to love--sports. However, it seems he is only so hostile and anger
at us. He is quick tempered an impulsive about random things. But really
has not had an issue with his anger at school. He says things like "I just
want to kill someone" because he is so anger but generally in response to
something small ie a story about something that made him
uncomfortable, or that the car would not start because he left the lights
on all night. He tells me he wants to be emancipated. I know he says that
to lash out. But still it hurts...we live our lives for him and give him all
our energy, efforts and attention.
He is mad because he has to take medicine...but he takes it. I think
because he knows something is not right. He makes random comments
about being crazy.
Dr and therapist now say it is a behavioral modification issue and
explaining he just did not learn moral and values like everyone else. This
is just not true. He has not always been like this...he has compassion,
morals and values. I know the child I raised. This is just not him. I try to
explain this to the docs and I think they just think I am in denial or
something. But a mother knows--he is in there. I see it on the good
days--which are few and far between.
I realize this is rambling and unorganized..just don't feel like I can take
another day. I have considered sending him off to school. It breaks my
heart but I cannot live like this. As a parent you do not get the choice to
opt out your child's life and never in a million years did I think I would
feel this way. But honestly I do.
Any suggestions?
Do you think that the tenex helps a little? Because that is a small dose....my 10 year old takes 1mg in the morning and 2 mg at night, and I know others whose children take an afternoon dose....perhaps that would help. The tenex's effective range is about 6-8 hours..I think...
If you think that it is helping, you may want to up the dose or look into that afternoon dose. I know when Chase 'loses it', it is usually in the late afternoon, and I am contemplating asking his doc about adding that afternoon dose....Is there any possibility he is depressed? It sounds like maybe with the lack of interest in things he has liked in the past, the anger, the lack of motivation?Thank you all for the comments. I think it is a good idea to increase the
Tenex--the thread was very helpful. And Vickie the reminder of the lack of
emotional development is so true! He is just so mature and advanced in
other areas that we tend to forget.
Thanks.Thank you both for your replies. It helps.
Regarding the Tenex. I really have not noticed any difference with or
without it. We started with 1 mg at night. I complained the doc about his
behaviors and he added the one in the morning. I get concerned that he
is one so much and maybe just the wrong meds all together. It has been
explained to me that the ADHD type he is not generally treated with
adderal because of the anger could be made worse. He missed alot of
school when he first went on the abilify that the doc is hesitant to change
the meds until school is out. I'll do some more research of Tenex dosage.
Thank you for the suggestion.
As to depression, we fill out depression questionaires everytime we go to
the doc about every two weeks. They don't think he is depressed because
he seemingly has such a strong self-esteem and importance. I will
discuss that further with the docs as well. Thanks.The anger/aggression is a possible side effect on ANY stimulant, but if you try a few, you may stumble on one that is not that way for your son. My son got quite angry/aggressive on Concerta, but many others do well on it....it is so individual, some are angels on adderall...
The one that has hit the spot with my son is Ritalin LA...that combined with the tenex (guanfacine) has mellowed him out and kept him on task at school...he was never very hyper...
My youngest is on 2mg tenex (guanfacine) AM and PM with a 1/2mg booster in the afternoon. This med has a 12-18 hour half life but is effective for symptoms for only 6-8 hours. I would ask the doc about increasing the tenex (slowly by 1/2 mg increments). The recent shire studies used 2-4mg a day of thier long acting form (due out later this year). There is a long thread on tenex with links to info to print for discussion with the doc.
http://www.adhdnews.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24770& PN=1
Kids with ADHD tend to be about 30% behind thier peers in emotional maturity. This means that although you are dealing with a 16 year old, he is still learning emotional and social lessons as though he were 12. A positive reinforcement behavior plan might be helpful as well as social skills training (interactions with family are part of social skills).
vickie39213.376400463My daughter also does fairly well on the same combo, Ritalin LA and guanfacine. She was sort of "sad" on Adderall, although took it for about a year. It does increase anxiety often. They all effect each child differently. Please also keep in mind the same medicine in a different release also causes different reaction. My daughter has always done better on long acting meds than she did on short acting. She also is not very hyper.I have to pt my two cents in with Okiemom's comment about the control and the anxiety pieces. We've also had phases where everything was struggle/battle. Our doc said the same thing, that our daughter was just trying to control things she felt she could control since her brain seemed so out of control. She knows she is disorganized and distracted and it must just make her crazy, so she would battle with us trying to gain control somewhere. We for the most part have come to a balance,, but she is not even 13 yet, so I am sure that will wax and wane drastically over the next few years. We also struggle to treat ADHD/anxiety. Very, very tough as many ADHD meds increase the anxiety. In our case pretty much all the stimulants. Thank you Okiemom. I am really not so sure if the bipolar diagnosis iscorrect. He is not typically manic..but I understand that it can manifest
itself in so many ways. So it is possible. My family history on the
paternal side is full of mental illnesses but I am not in a situation to know
the diagnosis. I have no connection with the biological side of that
family. But there are many bipolar symptoms that are present.
Your description of the adderall experience sounds like ours. But it
worked so well in the beginning. We see a primary care doc that
specializes in ADHD. He has a biochemistry background and pretty much
follows Dr. Amen's philosphy. We had really good initial results for about
2 weeks. Like I said things are better than the were but when that is so
significantly far off track it still seems as we are so far away. I think the
doc is hesitant to change things up wil we are trying to wrap up the
school year because things seem to go well at school for the most part--
and he has straight A's after struggling to bring them back up. So the
adderall seems to work for focus.
He was only diagnosed a few months ago so I know intellectually it takes
time. But as you all know it is so hard to fight these battles for so long.
We started with regular adderall, then added 15 mg. of abilify. Increasing
adderall to 40 mg in the morning and 20 in the afternoon. Switched to
Daytrana patch increasing to 30 mg--no effect. Abilify is now reduced to
10 mg. Then went to Adderall XR increased to 50 morning and 25 in
afternoon. Added Tenex 1 mg night then added 1 mg at night. We
started behavioral therapy immediately which honestly I do not think is
helping much if at all but that takes time too.
I do think from the responses I have gotten today that we need off the
Adderall.
I will get Dr. Greene's book!
By the way are you in Oklahoma? We are in OKC.
I skimmed your post and went right to maybe bipolar. I see that you mention that in the begining of your post.
The adhd meds will make him WORSE! You need to treat the bipolar first then treat the adhd.
Get him evaluated for bipolar ASAP!
Sounds like he is just as miserable as you and your husband!
Once you know if he has bipolar, things will get better. Please call and do that! You will be able to relax then!
Please keep us updated, post what is happening with your son and family!
Beth
Hi Libs. Hang in there. You know your son and know something is not quite right with this anger side of him. Blow off that comment on him not learning morals!
BTW..... I have a 14 yr old on a combo of Concerta/Tenex/Zoloft. His dx is ADHD Primary Inattentive plus generalized anxiety. Very tricky comorbid combination to treat.
Has the doctor ever suggested an underlying anxiety disorder, rather than bipolar??? Adderall may NOT be the best stimulant for your son. Abilify I hear works great for many dx'd bipolar.....but do you feel the bipolar dx is correct?? Is there a family history of bipolar?
How many stims have you all tried over the years?? We've tried MANY over the years and for us....Concerta is smoothest. Adderall was a living nightmare for us.... extreme moods, sadness, anger and agitation, low low frustration tolerance, etc. It seems to fuel his anxiety. Adderall works for many.....but if you read enough of this website..... you'll know that many many parents have reported problems with it.
The med game is so frustrating and time consuming. Do you feel the person managing his meds knows what they are doing?? Why type of doctor is managing them? How many dose titrations did it take to get him where he is today? I think it is very very rare to try a med and hit upon the right one and/or right dose the first time. It literally took us over a year!!
Also......for a long long time we were UNDERmedicating. Our son is one of those rare cases that require high doses of stimulants.....we take 162 mg of Concerta. We have a child/adolescent psychiatrist managing his meds. Also.....until we got my son's anxiety under control (zoloft plus cognitive behavioral therapy), the treatment of the ADHD just wasn't working. Anxiety and ADHD are SEPARATE disorders and are treated separately.
Just from what little you post...... I do think that your son may be manipulating the situation too.....to retain the power. I remember so well the days past when I felt my son "ruled" our household and we were just walking on eggshells all the time. That is a horrible feeling and yes......... you cannot continue to live that way. So yes.....there is a behavioral component going on too probably. You've got to sit down with a behavioral therapist and get SPECIFIC instructions on how to get the power back within the household. Your son needs boundaries.
Have you read The Explosive Child by Dr. Ross Greene?? It is a must read!!!
Good luck! You are not alone! Okiemom
i wouldnt worry to much about the scissors incident unless hes threatening kids, my son did the smae thing to one of his shirts in school last year but he couldnt tell me why, I think he just got bored durning class lol.My son is ADHD and bipolar - he has been on so many meds - right now Strattera, paxil, seroquel, trazadone. He has been on so many combinations of meds - I don't think there is a magic solution. What IS helping tremendously is his new school. After crying my eyes out for years because of the turmoil, I finally found hope in this program. My son acknowledges how much he needs it, too. I have info on my website http://ellen.parentshelpingeens.com