met with new psychiatrist -
So, we meet with the new psychiatrist who has met with my son twice.
Okay -Basically, he said what we kind of already know, - my son does things on his own terms when he is ready.
He has figured out how to shift the responsibility of school on to his parents - mainly me. We have to back off and let him find his own way. (Hmm, where have I heard this before 
I was more concerned about his grades and homework than he was.
Oh, he may or may not have ADHD innatentive. And, this was interesting. When we asked him if we should still have the tests that have been scheduled by the Center for learning disabilities he didn't give a definate answer. He said they are good for a second opinion and that diagnosis is good but they usually give these when they want to administer drugs. He never ever once suggested med.
He said even if he has some ADHD innatentive symptoms it doesn't make a difference; my son will only motivate himself when he is ready.
Now this is similar to the last guy who insisted my son was in denial and the only way to get him help was to have my son admit it. This new guy did say my son is wound very tight and has anxiety but he didn't know if it was anything that needed treatement.
Here is the plan - I have to back off and shift the responsibility of school to my son. This is so hard. When I told him that I did eveything I could so my son wouldn't stay back because I thought it would hurt him emotionally, he seemed to disagree. Maybe I should have let my son fail and suffer the consequence.
So, he said to keep the 504 in place. He is going to meet with my son in two weeks. I guess my son said he wanted to get organized and better grades and he told him he could get it together in a month.
When school starts, if his grades and performance is still bad, we will meet with the teachers and have this new set fill out the ADHD type evaluation forms and then go from there.
Bottom line - my son has PIA - Pain in the A-- syndrome
Seriously, it was interesting that the first psychologist recommended meds and the psychiatrist seems to not.
How am I going to stop being so involved? How can I let my son fail? I asked the psychiatrist if he thought the reasons he was having difficult was ADHD innatentive and he didn't reallly know. I guess, whether he has it or not, my son will only be able to do well when he decides to.
Anyway - this guy is more professional than the other one and my son doesn't get bent out of shape about seeing him.
I think I know that syndrome VERY WELL!
I can't wait to see what type of responses you get about the responsibility shift since this is something that I struggle with as well. It is so hard to watch someone fail when you absolutely know that they don't have to.
Best of luck!
I would love to know more about your son, his age, his history. I am trulya veteran of the "responsibility shift" paradigm and have many failures
and successes on this battlefield.
As I have said before I have 4 sons, all grown, who have various
diagnosis. Mostly ADHD.
I overfunctioned with all of them. They all grew up to be fine adults, and
successful and independent -- many many times I handed over the
"responsibility" to them-- and just as often I quickly grabbed it back.
Hindsight is 20/20. That is the hard part. Looking back there are many
places where I wish I had handed the decision to to kid, and let him fall
flat on his butt and take the consequences. But in the end, and I hate to
say this, but it is I think true, I usually manipulated furiously any way I
could to help my kid. And I think if I had it to do over again I would do
the same. I'll tell you why.
I am ADD ( I am 60) and grew up in a time this was not on anyones radar
screen, in fact I grew up before radar screens were even invented. I had
an unusual childhood as I was not only ADD but because of family
problems (death of sibling from SIDS) I was in school very young and was
always the youngest in the class.
I always tested well, but underperformed, never did my homework,
messy, disorganized- all the stuff that you would be able to diagnose
from across the room nowadays.
All the blowback I got from teachers (and more then that from inside
myself) really gave me tons of emotional problems. I had the brains and
the drive to get somewhere in life, but I always chose way beneath me
because I was so demoralized by my failures. Don't get me wrong, I
managed, and have had a good life- but the grades I got -- I was very
good in school I could have been anything I wanted to be based on
ability-- but my lack of confidence undid me at EVERY turn.
I never wanted my kids to think they were defective like I thought of
myself. I feel like much of my intervening was an attempt to act like a
buffer between them and the slings and arrows of life as an LD/ADD kid.
That being said, somehow I did learn the "dance"-- and that is what I call
it of being there bigtime to bail them out sometimes/ and letting the
chips fall where they may at times.
When you consider these statistics- More the 50% of these kids will drop
out of high school, abuse substances, or spend time in jail-- it is no
wonder that parents "jump in".
Patty - My son is now 13 and entering Grade 8.
Looking back now, my son actually was doing slightly better before the 504 was put in place and I started my over advocating. He started first quarter with C's some B's and just went down and ended up with D's. All of his lousy grades are because he won't turn in or do his work. He also tests well, although he refuses to study for tests so sometimes he will do lousy on a test. Ofcourse, he won't take responsibility for that either. I suppose without the 504 he would have got F's. As was suggested to me by another astute member of this forum, my son may have decided since "he has problems, he'd act that way"
My son is so smart and creative and I don't want a little cookie cutter conformist but he doesn't seem to understand you have to do well in the class even if you don't like the teacher.
The psychiatrist said I could use incentives. The only incentive my son responds to is the computer.
What kind of system do I set up next year? I just can't let him go free. He needs some kind of structure.
Did I create more damage this year with my over parenting? How do I tell him things will be different without letting on I know his game?
My son and I used to be very close but our relationship is very strained now. Some of this is the normal teenage thing - it's normal for boys to not hang with mom anymore and I understand that. He doesn't open up to me as much. I hope I didn't cause that with hyperparenting.
Patty - you you said something that just hit me - my kid is great in the thinking part of school - it's the adminstative part that hangs him up.
He's doing great at camp. Ironically, his friend, the straight A student is homesick and crying. My kid is having a ball. If I could get my kid to just accept help with the organization of school, I bet he'd be fine.
I must have sounded like an overprotectice over hyper parent to the psychiatrist. My husband says I am making his success in school to important but what is important to bring out is my son's anxiety and ODD and all his raging is brought about when he is in school.
Now for me, I am going to have to try to undo some of the damage. I kept taking the other psychologists approach and trying to make my son admit he has a problem.
Now I think this new guy says he may have anxiety but I think I should try to help my son accept help. Like the psychiatrist said, he may have ADD innatentive but what can we do? I bet it's my son's anxiety that is causing him problems in school and maybe that is making him unable to organize and stay that way. I don't know.
I certainly do know what you mean, and it sounds like a terrific school. Ican't urge you enough to see if you can get some inside sources. Like you
say they may sound one way, and do another. I have seen it. You need to get
beyond the facade. Please keep me informed. This is exciting!yes it is. The exciting part for us is that it is public (so its free) and they have a bus route for a 20 mile radius which includes us
. I really hope it works out for her. Although she is only 13 and had ADHD I may get all our ducks in a row and she'll change her mind . She says right now she doessnt care if her friends are at our high school and she is ther. She says I can call them on the phone. that may change over the next year or so.Yes that's us the camper. She LOVES camp. She has been going for several years. WE have greatly encouraged this. She is quite immature and the kind of kid that will let everyone do for her, so if we find anything she likes that will foster independance we JUMP on it . So sleepover camp, her babysitting course all those things. She takes horseback riding lessons and loves them and horse management is one of the courses there. She also LOVES animals and is great about walking our dogs. Another thing we jumped on and assigned that as a chore for her allowance. They also have a verterinary med tech program at the voc. They also have an agricultutral program, all right up her alley. I want to really help her get there if it's meant to be. I'd hate her to be held back because of the aide. I did talk briefly to admissions this year and in my email I mentioned she had an aide, they did not make it sound like that would be a hindrance. They obviously would not say they are not taking her for that reason, but they could just say there wasnt enough room, you know what I mean?
Start now networking with parents of kids who are there. This is where
you will learn what you need to learn to make sure your daughter has the
best shot. I would say they will be cool with the aid if it is in her IEP- she
has to have it. On the other hand, now might be a good time to get over
this. I mean, in a voc school she should get a lot of hands on, and she
might adapt really well to a step that is in her future for sure. I was
reading other posts, this the the girl who is at camp right? Is she fine
there? That is a really good sign, Voc schools require the kind of
independance and participatiion that a camp does. It is the non-
cooperative kid who has trouble there.
See if you can find a parent who has an LD/ ADD kid at that school, even
if you have to call the school and ask directly. Tell them to give your
phone number to the special ed co-ordinator of services, or just ask to
speak to her yourself.
It is always better to start informally talking to parents, but if you can't go
to the TOP of the food chain. If you get confusing answers call the state
dept of ed and ask them directly if your girl is entititel to an aid there or
not, and if that will affect her chances for admission. Always go as high as
you can with the administration, or you may bang up agains corruption.
People in power will tell you anything, figuring you can't really know, I
have seen parents lied to often, so go high up if you have questions. I
think it sounds like she has a great plan.My head is spinning. I have so many takes on this -- and there is no firm
line-- just a lot of general guidelines.
I am also a diagnosed ADD. I am 60, so it is clear I was diagnosed as an
adult, prob over 40 when I was diagnosed. I always thought that everyone
hated school. When my children were little pre-diagnosis and they would
complain it never set off any bells. I just thought it was like shots at the
dr's - a generally unpleasant but unavoidable part of life. It was not til I
was at my reading book club-- of about 25 women my age, all well
educated like me, that I realized that they had all LOVED school. I was
amazed. Everything I had hated about school- the worksheets, the
keeping my stuff organized, the making little squares on yellow paper
and laying out your math problems just so-- they loved! So I guess when
you see this kind of attitude it is pretty standard for the ADD.
My kids were social, and so they loved the part about seeing their friends.
It was the tasks, not the thinking, that made school hard for my kids.
They were all very good thinkers and learneds, they just had a hard time
with the clerical type tasks. They had bad handwriting, were slow with it.
Disorganized. My oldest son, who is now a professor and a Standford PhD
said one day
"School for me is like when then make the fat kids run a mile, and they
can't, and then they stop, so the next day they say, run two miles, and
then next three". I think he was a Freshman in High School at that time,
and he was describing that completely overwhelmed and defeated feeling
an LD kid gets when they are BURIED. And it does not take much to bury
them.
When your kid gets buried, jump in and help. I often did this-- worked
with them, did some of the work (looked up some definitions, while they
did others, stuff like that-- I think that it does help. My youngest went to
a very very expensive college that specialized in kids with LD and had an
extra program-- that cost 3 grand-- that was one on one help. With a
PhD LD specialist no less. When I asked Paul what she did-- and he liked
her and she helped him-- he said "she does what you do to help". So I
would suggest that this kind of tutoring, coaching, hyperparenting can
help. I did it with all my kids. Sometimes a LOT-- stuff I would definately
say was overdoing-- at times when I was a bit desperate I read their
assignments so I could discuss it with them-- to a very little bit of sort of
the same thing I would do with any kid. Quiz them-- stuff like that.
I am a teacher, often I made study aids, cards-- blank maps when they
had memorization, rented tapes of books, read assignments with them--
they read one page I read the next. To be honest I do a lot of this kind of
stuff in study hall right now to help kids. I also think working together
with another kid helps. When you think of this that is how we learn in the
adult world isn't it?
Accept the fact that your kid has issues with school, and that is that. Talk
a lot about it, let them vent all they want. You can keep your finger on the
pulse of the situation that way. I mentioned above I think that I made
mistakes not listening to my kids. In hindsight if I had accepted what they
said, it would have been better. There were some really bad teacher/
student fits-- and I always said to myself-- he always complains about
school, this is just more of that. I missed some really crucial problems
that I should have addressed.
That brings up a point that I think is huge. Be a person who knows the
system, knows the teachers, try to get your kids in with the best teachers.
If you think that your kid is getting her butt kicked unfairly by a teacher,
ask around, see what you can find out, if you get some people saying the
same thing-- get your kid moved. I once moved my oldest son out of a
class that he was really intimidated by the teacher. Kept telling me that
the teacher goaded and teased the kids. I asked my pediatrition who was
a good friend and a school specialist what he had heard about this guy,
he said-- a lot of complaints. I called the school to get matt moved. They
put up a fuss telling me that there were no other college level history
classes to put him in -- that he would have to go to a B (non college
prep) class. I asked Matt how much does this matter? He wanted out-- I
took him out-- over my husband and the head of the history dept
objections. They dept head wrote me a letter on school stationary telling
me I was making a serious mistake and that Matt would never be
accepted into a college. He just got his PhD from Stanford this June and
will be a full professor this fall. It was not an easy thing, but that was one
of the days I listened and did the right thing. I also missed some of these
things and it was a bad choice at other times. Pay attention, don't let your
kid think they are in charge and can call the shots, they have to learn that
they are part of a system and most of the adapting done will have to be
done by them, but in your own heart of hearts, be guided by your kid's
emotional messages. You know your kid better then anyone.
Don't worry too much about this, or let your kid see you worry. Know in
your heart that your kid will adjust, adapt, learn to compensate. My kids
all did, and the one that became the workaholic was the least dilgent in
school. I remember he wrote a story in grade five entitled the lazy boy. It
was about a kid who hated school, never did his work and when he grew
up had to get a job testing mattresses cuz that was all he could do. This
"lazy boy" grew up to be a CEO with 100 employees and is a Harvard MBA
at 32. He is a very hard worker. It did not happen overnight. He started to
get it together about age 16-17 and slowly slowly improved.
This brings up another crucial thing. All this dealing with hardship,
struggle, going up against their own weak side day after day is incredibly
stressing. You kid can get depressed, develope an eating disorder, start
experimenting with sex, drugs and alcohol. This is some of the side
effects that you often see. I have my struggles with my kids with all of
these things. Different years bring different trials. Some years you will
have a nice alchemy and they will do well (for them)-- other years it will
just all fall to peices around your head.
When number two son had an especially hard year in grade six we were
up to our ears in appts, councilling -- I thought he was really going to fall
apart. He did fall apart. I took him out of school for a few weeks, and he
took a scuba diving course at night. The instructor gave him all the tests
orally and it was a real savior -- boosted his self esteem. The next grade
in fact the next two, were excellent. Freshman years was another pit in
hell. And so it went. I had to threaten the principal with a lawsuit if he did
not let the kid play football even though he was flunking just about
everything, He got to play, made alstate and got on the honor role Soph
year. It was not smooth sailing but always like that, up and down. He
never really got "settled" til about 25, all my kids were like that.
So know these thing. Expect them to sloooooowwwwwwly adapt.
Make sure they know they are smart, and that in time the hard clerical
parts of learning will not be so much a part of school.
Jump in and help and support all you can.
Let them know that they are trying harder then most kids, that they are
little warriors, in a war they will win. Make sure they know they will get
tons of extra strength from this that other kids don't have. Resilience and
persistence and courage.
Keep you eye close on them. Look for the signs of stress overload. Jump
in if need be, and be creative.
Know the system. Now I teach in the school my kid went to-- I hear kids
say the same things about certain teachers my kids said. I should have
listened more, and pulled strings more.
THIS WILL PASS.
Thank you Patty.
She does try very hard and we've been lucky that for the most part she has wonderful teachers. The one this year that was not so good, I complained about constantly. I know when school hears my voice on the other end of the phone they must cringe . They do always listen though. I guess our biggest obstacle with her is knowing what she can and cannot do. How hard to push her. She really wants to attend a certain high school. They will go by her 7th and 8th grade transcripts when the time comes to apply. Her grades are generally ok....B's and C's. Her attitude and attendance are good, she's never late or misses classes, all good. She does however have a one to one aide and I am not sure the high school will take her with an aide. They are a public vocational high school so they have to honor her IEP, but.................having to pay a full-time aide????? They are very specialized and it is fairly competitive to get in. So we are sort of what to do here, do we try to get her away from her aide over this coming year, or will it just overwhelm her . I want her to succeed, and be happy getting there. The vocational school will have realyl fun classes for her along with the basics, plus focus a lot on work ethic. So am very much for this and it seems like great fit, so I just want to do the right thing to give her the bext chance of getting in.
combinations of LD, ADD and prob other things that were not spoken of
then. I was actually the first person I ever knew who had the diagnosis. I
had to give my pediatrition a tape about ADD. He knew about it, but just
barely.
This post just brings up so much from my memory banks. I mean you
could probably write a book about this aspect of raising any challanging
kid. It is really complex and you have to rely on your own intuition, and
also be ready to constantly re-evaluate. Like I say, I had 4 boys, used
different strategies with them all, and also different things at different
times with the very same kid.
I will give you some examples that may help out, or not. Some broad
guidlines:
1) your incentives (and these do work) should address attitudes and
behaviors-- you can't ask for a specific thing. For instance: you want your
kid to be responsible, honest, know that an assigned task is expected to
be done- this kind of stuff. You can't ask for an A, or any other specific
outcome. If your kid learns the right attitudes, he will have the tools he
needs to achieve in the way he chooses. I could give you so many
examples of kids who have done so well- in the very last way the parents
ever would have wanted, or even imagined.
2) the more immediate the better. If you cannot give an incentive
immediately, give a marker, or token something toward the incentive
immediately. These kids don't know or care about long term anything.
That's why the marble system works so well. Do the task, get the marble.
Also good are systems or plans which the consequence is immediate.
Like when they are little: step in the street, go inside. Throw sand on
some kid in the sandbox-- home we go. (or you sit out for 10 minutes--
forever to an ADD.
3) Authority is largely symbolic, and is an orientation. When the kid
senses they are "in charge" ( and the scary thing is from your son's age on
they are- no matter what you think) they will go with that. They like it
when you are in charge. My sons have reflected this back to me and it
amazes me that they remember fondly when I lowered the boom.
Now for some specifics. My sons are 25-34 now, I really have to go back
in my memory banks -------
Some of your questions and comments:
My son is now 13 and entering Grade 8. I think that with my sons grade
7-9 were the lowest pits in hell. Try to remember that. He will change,
some of the change will come from just maturing. But all my kids were
pretty much big emotional messes at this age. One think I want to
mention here, that I thought about-- and don't want to forget to say is
that one mistake I made-- is not believing my kids. I really did overparent
as you call it. I was living my life around these kids, and it was not good
for me, but it on balance was good for them, I think. They needed it. But I
went to school in a convent, back in the 50-60's and I had an extremely
rigid old school education. When my kids complained about teachers, I
usually thought -- suck it up-- and mostly came down on the side of "try
harder". I made some crucial mistakes in this area. I really believe EVERY
single time my kids had issues, they turned out to be telling the truth.
The kid was right. I will say more about how I handled school issue (my
overparenting hints-- later)
Looking back now, my son actually was doing slightly better before the
504 was put in place and I started my over advocating. He started first
quarter with C's some B's and just went down and ended up with D's.
Hard to tell what caused this. It may have been developmental. I teach 9th
graders, and life for them is not about school- even the best and the
most brillant are mostly focused on their peers. This starts in grade 7 or
before. It truly amazes me how much they change, every kid even the
most unbearable pain matrues a whole lot by grade 10-11
All of his lousy grades are because he won't turn in or do his work. This is
pretty much standard. I am also diagnosed. I did the same until I was a
Freshman-- and I got away with it until we were grouped and I had to
work to get above D's.
I did so many things to get my kids to do their work. I had about three or
four rules I upheld as much as I could all the way to leaving for college :
go to bed on time (crucial), do your work, stay off drugs/alcohol/ don't be
disrespectful. I am not saying I succeeded, but those were my goals, and
in fact I had massive failures, and battle royals, but those were my broad
overarching goals.
I made charts, gave points, sat with them and did the work with them, did
part of it if they would do part of it. I also kept very close track of the
work, asking the teacher to let me know.This is something you can get
with and IEP. Also-- I do believe any kid can get an IEP, you just gottah
know the ropes. If you want to know how let me know.
I had the amount of work modified. I often used this strategy. If you will
do 5, I will do three for you. The goal was always for the kid to learn, "you
gottah do the work, somehow." With the IEP and the right teacher, you
can often get the homework modified. WIth one teacher Dan got out of
homework all together if he got an A on the friday quiz, and he did, all
year. INCENTIVE. If you work, you get out of work. And that is true in life,
procrastinating and leaving stuff creates more work. We all gottah learn
this. You want your boy to learn this the easiest way he can, and in his
case it may not be easy, but you don't want him to learn it in jail, or in a
GED program when he is 30. Not that many don't make a good life with
this kind of setback, but you know what I mean.
He also tests well, although he refuses to study for tests so sometimes
he will do lousy on a test. Study with him, praise him, praise his memory-
parents opinions are important. Here you can use the computer. Study for
the test 20 minutes with me, and then you can go on the computer for
(you figure this)
Ofcourse, he won't take responsibility for that either. Don't even discuss
this with him. The sky is blue, he is human, if you don't study, you get a
worse grade, law of nature.
My son is so smart and creative and I don't want a little cookie cutter
conformist but he doesn't seem to understand you have to do well in the
class even if you don't like the teacher. This is your job. To get him to
learn he has to put up with this in life to have freedom. There is no way
around it. If you work with him you may not see progress -- but slowly he
will get it. All 8th graders are resistant to this in some ways, but even the
toughest will get the bottom line. Don't worry about the cookie cutter
thing- this will never happen --- these kids are made to break the molds,
your job is to get them to the college level fairly whole, non-addicted, no
real jail record, and ready to be a member of society. He will never be a
blind conformist. Ask me. I went to school with the nuns, and had the
most rigid and conformist training, it didn't take. NEVA HAPPEN
The psychiatrist said I could use incentives. The only incentive my son
responds to is the computer. I think you will see more as you start
thinking along these lines.
What kind of system do I set up next year? I just can't let him go free. He
needs some kind of structure. Yes, he does. Start small along these lines,
and keep at it. You will have a lot of frustration. If he really has a tough
year consider holding him back in grade 8. This often helps boys a lot
Do your work networking with other parents of ADD kids- try to get him
the best teachers, that will be the best help you can get. Keep up with the
counciing.
Did I create more damage this year with my over parenting? I really doubt
it. You were learning as he learned. Every bad outcome does not mean an
bad end, and vice versa. These kids learn lke crabs walk. Sideways.
How do I tell him things will be different without letting on I know his
game? Just do it. Let him ask questions. They often aren't listening. One
key phrase repeated may sink in better then the most heartfelt
explanation. Something like "this year you are going to learn to get your
work done. It will really help. He won't ask you "how?" trust me-- and that
's good b/c you really don't know--- but you will find out.
My son and I used to be very close but our relationship is very strained
now. Keep it light. Don't come down like you are setting up some new
regime (you are but he has to be the LAST to know). Back off as much as
you can emotionally. Get some help and counciling for YOU. It is so
helpful. That is one of the ways I most suffered, not getting support for
myself.
Some of this is the normal teenage thing - it's normal for boys to not
hang with mom anymore and I understand that. He doesn't open up to
me as much. I hope I didn't cause that with hyperparenting. I don't know
how else you can raise these kinds of kids. Honestly, my kids are doing
really well. And I am an observer of every single kid in our town in my job
as the only health teacher. Many of them are successful (most are not)
and the ones who are successful have a very diligent hyperparent in the
background. I have never seen any other scenariol
Good luck- can't you tell how I am ADD with this rambling response?
Patty
I also have an almost 13 year old entering 7th grade. Thak you Patty this is helpful information. School is SO hard for my daughter and she HATES homework, it is a big problem for her.
Patty - thank you (hugs).
I am going to print out your post and while DS is gone DH and I will go over it.
I am thinking of maybe asking the psychiatrist if I can meet with him on my own but he did say he would speak with me and my husband again.
It's hard when you love someone so much to just watch them hurt.
What you are aiming at is having a kid who may hate homework, but can
adapt somehow to the system without failing--- in the later years of high
school and college the diddly work get much lighter--- and a kid who learns
to know they can do lots of things well. They can hate homework all they
want, we just don't want a kid so oppressed by the daily grind of school that
they hate life. Definately speak with the psychiatrist on your own. Get a therapist for
you. I mean that. I am going to put something here I wrote to another
mother on another board. I hope it helps. It may not apply to you exactly
it is from my own notes
This is probably one of the key things that I did to "undermine" myself.
And it is a very subtle thing, probably a part of mothering as a whole, but
maybe just somehow exagerated in our cases (moms of ADDs).
When my kids were first diagnosed, back in the 1980's there was very
little literature, in fact I got a pamphlet (black and white) and it was not
really helpful. It was full of the "statistics" about all the dire things that
ADD's get into. It was not encouraging or hopeful-- at best it said things
like "with the proper help these kids can cope" don't know the whole
history of ADD but in that time, my own pediatrition, who was a school
problem specialist, and a good friend, did not really suspect it in my son.
My son was a friend of his own son's and my pediatrition saw my kid
ALOT.
Meanwhile my younger (third) son was getting special reading help b/c at
grade 2, he could still not read. They brought in a specialist ( to whom I
will be forever grateful) and she said she thought Marc had something
called an attention disorder. I remember she gave me a tape about it. I
listened and told my ped-- "Hey I think Dan (number 2 son-- screwing
up royally-- about to be kicked out of school in grade 6) has this" -- and
I gave the tape to my pediatrition. He listened to the tape, and he said
"Patty, I have heard about this-- and I really apologize that I did not
realize that this was Danny's issue-I think your right". My son, it turns
out, really struggled to overcompensate, and often appeared less ADD
then he was -- this great effort often resulted in blowback later.
Then began what would turn out to be a 3 or 4 year struggle to undo and
repair ( to the the extent we could- this I think is still an issue in my son
age 31 CEO of multimilliondollar company he founded- on concerta) the
damage failing as badly as he had to fail to be noticed and helped,
caused.
Simulaneously I had 3 other kids, one who was on the cusp of ADD hood
in grade 2 or 3- one who was undiagnosed and struggling in grade 9,
and a nursery school kid who they were putting "on the discipline matt"
on a daily basis. I told the nursery school "take a number, I'll get to you as
soon as I can".
This as you can see was not pretty. I had of course GUILT. I also had
FEAR. I also had family and their not so helpful "He's fine" -- "Why do only
your kids have this" --- "Could it be lead poisoning"--- on and on type
of comments.
I had Shame, Confusion, Defeat. Probably other feelings mixed in--
reading these boards has brought back so much.
Another layer was my husband, who actually told ME to go for help to a
psychologist b/c it was my mothering that was the problem.
Do not faint. I did what he said- - I was that desperate. It turned out to
be a big blessing in disguise. I got diagnosed, I got a lot of help and
support, and my councilor taught me that I was not only not defective, I
was a virtual wonder with the severe ADD I myself had, and the life I had
lead and the things I had accomplished. This councilor said that
undiagnosed learning problem sufferers that succeed are invariably super
hard workers, and that (I think) is true.
Ritilan helped me, counciling helped me. I got quite a bit of help, but I
always pointed it towards my kids-- how could I help them-- it was
always all about them.
Looking back I should have paid a lot more attention to myself. I have
learned through the years that I am only as strong as I AM. I can't really
do much good when I am depleted and DEFEATED. And some days I have
been, and I have really messed up and paid for it.
If I had it to do over again I would get MUCH MUCH more personal
support. I would start with that. If my book will say anything to mothers it
would say, HELP YOURSELF FIRST. I believe that a strong calm together
mother is the best best thing any kid can have. I think there must be
good dads, but I really know the moms who do this stuff. Take care of
yourself, and it will help your kids.
If you do not have money-- go to AlAnon, it is free, sometimes has
babysitting, and is a great place to learn to take care of yourself.
Those feelings that you are a buffer, that you are at fault, that b/c of
some subtle failure on your part, you need to double pedal as a mother
are all swirling around in your heart and driving the bus of your life.
Those kind of feelings make you overcompensate, drive yourself too
hard, ease up to much on the ADD kids ( I know I did all this, and it was
not good for me or the kids).
I know you are a good mom, and that your girl will make it-- it is all there
in the sentence "she is my daughter and I love her so very very much".
Been there. These kids have wells of strength, intuition, creativity, drive
that will serve them well. They make it, your job is to get "bulletproof"
against all you will deal with on the way.
Start by taking your own complex feelings underconsideration, so you can
get it going in the positive.
I struggle with that balance. How do I help her not HATE the grind. At one point mid 6th grade she asked if she could be homeschooled ashe did not want to go anymore. She has never disliked school. It is a grind, she struggles all day every day, then gets home and struggles her to get homework done. Part of it is just not wanting to do it, part of it is fatigue, part of it is that is just hard for her. It is already modified.I have quite a bit to say about that Diane, but I am headed out for a teacher's
union meeting, and those things drag out.
I will email you first thing tomorrow. My kids were ALL like that. And her
grade was the worst time for it.
Later
Patty - (hugs)
Diane - I'm picking up my son on Saturday.
Patty - I wish you taught at my sons school. I'm going to just love my son unconiditionally, even when he is driving me to drink. Seriously, I think I have found a good psychiatrist. My son has an apt. next Thursday and I am just going to tell him what the psychiatrist said - they are going to make plans for next year.
I tend to get into "action mode". I decide something is going to be done, and then I do it. I make lists, check them, and just do what I have to do. My son can't work that way.
I would like to tell him that the Dr. isn't quite sure he actually has ADD but my husband says not to because if it ends up my son does have it, then we have to start with him again.
I know my son likes to push my buttons. My son has some great qualities - some lousy ones too. If I could only get him to accept instruction but he never did.
I just hope I have't done too much damage and he ends up hating me.
In the mean time, we are going to set up rules for the school year and consequences for breaking them. I'll keep my over advocating to a minimum.
One thing my yoga practice has taught me is to approach things with beginners mind. Just because you could do a pose one day, doesn't mean you can do it the next. Approach the practice as a beginner and be open for learning.
Without getting to "out there" I am approaching this year with beginners mind. A new year, a new psychiatrist, and I have more knowledge and experience this year.
Let's see what happens.
rswf - I hope he comes as happy as my daughter! How nice it was to see her so relaxed and happy about a new friend and all the things she got to do at camp, she really loves it! Next year will be her last year I think that she can go as a camper, then she'll need to do Counselor in Training if she wants to go there (she says she wants to do this....YAY!!) .
Patty - I took your advice and contacted some one I know who works for the state (dept of education) and she has found some one at the high school and is going to get us together for a conversation. You were helpful in suggesting I keep at it. I have also requested information from the school about their speical ed dept specifically. Between the 2 it'll be nice to know where we stand on the aide issue. If it is not going to be a concern, we should keep her, she's like my daughters safety net.
Like rswf sometimes I feel like I'm "overadvocating" and worry when to "let the pieces fall where they may" and when to keep pushing .
I always read these posts late at night and I am not good -- for sure I am
a morning person. I want to say that reading these posts from you
particularly makes me not worry one bit about your children. Some of the
things you say are things I look for as a teacher. I cannot tell you how
many staffings I have sat through where all the teachers on the team are
saying a lot of CRAP about detail oriented stuff ( he does not do his
problem work out competely- he does not pass in his vocab work- she is
messy- her notebook is disorganized). I am often the one at the table
who says "Your kid has every quality that she needs to be a successful
person and mostly time will take care of these issues. Make sure they stay
in school, stay happy, and stay away from substance abuse-- and this will
all work out".
Yesterday I was walking and saw one of our new teachers in the district, a
handsome very athletic guy who teaches grade 5-- I think he is in his
second or third years. I remember that kids staffing well. He was
obviously ADD to me. He could not stay still, stay on task, was funny,
engaging, always talking out, talking to other kids, small for his age, a
little insecure-- and really annoying in a large class and he required a lot
of selective instruction. I would often put him in isolation to work,
because then he would. I really liked this kid, and he reminded me so
much of my own sons that I pushed myself to accomodate him. I would
separate him using humor, and he took to it.
At his stafffing his parents who I knew a bit and are very good caring
parents were literally traumatised with fear because here was there kid
being pilloried by one teacher after another. I could see how this could
happen b/c this kid was smart and in all high level classes, my class is all
inclusive, so it is different. I think in my class he must have been close to
the top in ability --- mental horsepower -- but in skills and maturity he
was low. His mother was crying.
All the teachers spoke, and the parents were blown away. They saw doom
and gloom everywhere they looked. I spoke last and you may not believe
this but I myself am somewhat intimidated by the faculty at my school b/
c they were teachers of my own kids, and said the very same things to
me, and revisiting this stuff is not easy. But I took a chance. The meeting
was chaired by a guidance counselor who used to be principal. He had
been a very strong advocate and friend during years of battles with my
kids. He had been there for me when I needed it, and that gave me
courage.
So I said"
" I don't think any of this stuff matters as much as the fact that Andy is a
good kid raised by good parents. He knows what is right, he is just not
able to comply completely yet. Maturity will cure almost all of his
problems by the time he is a senior. I think if we help him a little through
this year and maybe next he will reach a level of maturity where he will be
fine. "
The table was dead silent. I don't have to tell you it was not appreciated
that I had just opened my mouth and contradicted every teacher at the
table and broke ranks with the group-- this is not appreciated. In fact I
am enough of a friend to my fellow teachers that it was really hard for me
to do it. But it was like the emperor's new clothes to me, and I could not
say the oppisite of what I really thought.
Later that day his mother called me at home and thanked me. I cannot
say she really believed what I said ( and I myself knew that many many
things could have happened in high school that would make me be wrong
and off the mark) but the hope that her kid was just behind and not a
permanent problem child who was going to be a dropout was really
crucial. Over the years this mother has stopped me and caught me up on
her son, who did go on to mature physically and mentally. He is really a
great teacher, coach and a very successful mature young man right now.
And honestly, the whole thing happened with support, protection, good
parenting and TIME.
I remember one of my own son's staffings where we were trying to get
some modifications, and the principal said "this is not how the real world
functions- he is not going to get these kids of modifications when he get
out of high school".
I answered (you can tell I am mouthy when you get my Irish up) " that is
exactly how the real world functions--- the place where you get no
modifications is in high school-- the rest of the world functions on a
system of modifications where people do the things they are talented and
good at, not every little thing". Most of us don't do our own taxes, or our
own dry cleaning, or even all our own chores.
My second son ( who this was said about ) has 85 employees now, and
more modifications then he could ever get in the most accomodating
school in the world. Right now he is sending me letters from Senator
Kennedy, he is working on a bill on student loans before congress--
which is his business and he is advising the congress. If he had to go to
washington w/o his personal asst setting everything up, and sheparding
him through it-- he would forget, lose, mispell and many of the other
mistakes he was making as a 15 year old freshmand making mistakes and
getting ( I am serious) all F's and D's.
The bottom line of this is that I can tell from your posts that your kids
have talent and strengths. That is their ticket. All their weaknesss will
fade in importance as they learn to go with the strong side of themselves.
Look around you-- the world is full of complex, talented, limited, but
generously talented individuals who have so much to give.
Your job is to walk a fine line. Steer them toward learning to do the things
that must be done any way you can-- but above all protect them from
being groud down by negativity. Focus on their strengths.
You have to know in your own heart that your kid is talented and gifted
enough to make strengths of their weaknesses. Do some reading on
some of the famous LD's. It is very inspiring. Think of Helen Keller:
one of her best quotes to me is "When one door of happiness closes
another opens, but often we look so long at the closed door that we do
not see the one that has been opened for us"
I love that quote, it is all about power. And it was written by someone so
disabled that they never even saw a door, or heard the sound of it
shutting. -- and yet somehow, through grace-- they got the deeper
meaning. Amazing.
I am so happy for you.
As the years go I am noticing the difference in my daughter when there is no school too. So I am hopeful! School doesnt last FOREVER right?
My worry is ..........................work does . Hopefully she wont feel like work like she does about school.
My son came home so happy. He really functioned well. He made friends and even slow danced with girls. Socially, he's fine.
So, we mention how organized he was at camp. He says, I'm an organized person. We said really? He said, it's just at school I'm not. HMMM So, anyway, the room is still a mess and I"m working on letting back a little.
He brought up on his own the summer reading. I'll just gently ask him "hows it going, in a couple of weeks." No harm in that, right?
Good news to me - what ever triggers my son's anxiety is school related. He can function in the world - well atleast at camp. Anyway - he's a great kid and I am hoping this new psychiatrist can help all of us. He sees him on Thursday.
You are right about work. That is what concerns my husband too. Our kids have to get a handle on what causes their difficulties in school because they will have deadlines and bosses and responsibilities in work.
Exactly my point. We have to try so much harder to steer them towards something that makes them happy, and then pray it is something that can pay the bills.I think you can use the "let the pieces fall where they may" on a daily
basis, with your interaction with her, your setting of consequences,
drawing of boundaries. Your children can learn that they have power to
act in their own best interests, and to grow and learn in spite of any
condition they may have.
But when it come to the big picture, letting the pieces "fall where they
may" is like telling them to stay out of traffice, and figuring-- well if they
get maimed, they'll learn.
The system (school) is flawed, not because most teachers are not good,
or trying their best, but it is a system stressed to the max with terrible
burdens on it, an extremely complex crucial important job to do-- with
not enough financial and human resources to do it with. Corners are cut,
of necessity, and kids lives are RUINED. I have seen this with my own
eyes. Kids fall through the cracks all the time. And they are great kids,
talented kids, wonderful kids. But nobody is in their corner.
I tell my own kids that -- there are 100 kids as talented as you boys who
go down the toilet every year b/c no one is advocating for them. This is
true for a lot of "regular" kids too. Parents are less parental these days.
Parents often act like they are the kids. I tell my kids that and I am proud
to say that my son (age 32) company was featured as one of the 4 best
most ethical reliable student loan companies in the country in the wall st
journal yesterday. Yes he is a phenomenal man, but he was EXACTLY like
many of the worse kids I read about on these board. Some of his friends
are in prison right now, many of the kids that were LD like him have had
the worst of outcomes. I think my overparenting made the difference.
This is how I think if it-- it is the Tiger Woods model. And I know nothing
about sports. But i am breathing. And anyone who breathes on this earth
know that many people who are wise about such things say that Tiger
Woods may be the most talented human who ever played golf. And who
does Tiger Woods and most every commentator credit with his success?
His father and mother. They sheparded him through life. They saw they
had a phenom and they did not say, let's put him out there and let the
chips fall where they may. They knew that pro golf life is a quagmire, so
is the celebrity that he gained, so was his intellect (he went to stanford)
and they were there every step of the way.
It would be nice to think that even a talented bright young mixed race
athlete could just go to the top in this world. But the statistics for young
black men do not bear this up. Tigers parents were realistic- -and he
gives them all the credit.
I had 4 Tigers. And it seems that you have a Tiger of your own. No one
else in this world is as invested in your kid as you are. And no one will
have the belief, hopes and dreams for them as you do. No one is there to
give them the structure, the consequences and the encouragement that
you can. Tough job, but somebody's gottah do it :}
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