Help with confrontations & being assertiv | ADHD Information

Hey guys,

I am still feeling my way around this site but have read some great threads. So much of it has rang true to what I have/am experiencing in my life. Also, there is practical advice about things that no doctor can tell you; advice about "someone who is experiencing it themselves" kind of things. I was reading a thread about not having memories of your childhood and this is so true for me as well as happenings in the present: conversations, directions, lessons learned ten minutes ago. So I was wondering if this goes hand in hand with my inability to be good at confrontations. I tend to not get into them because I can't follow the banter or I can't think fast enough on my feet. Of course, if you are yelling at me in email and you give me about ten minutes, I'll come back at you with a vengeance, provided I'm not in an "I could care less" mood. Also, there are times where I love a good verbal sword fight (mood swings, anyone?) but it seems to always have to be in writing; I can't follow the line of conversation as well when using auditory senses.

Does anyone else experience this & does anyone have any suggestions about dealing with this?

[QUOTE=Greeneyed]

Jimmo - Thanks for the helpful suggestions and the encouragement. I have noticed that I am able to remember things so much better when I write them down. Journaling has been great for this as well, re feelings and situations. I will look back over the situation and try to learn from it. You are right about the looking back over the situation and thinking about how I could have done it differently as a way of preparing for the next time. Only thing about this is that I have to limit the amount of time that I do this & then try to let it go--> I tend to overanalyze or beat myself up about how I should have handled it.

Parduse - I found your words almost alien.Taking control of a conversation, going at my own pace...what is that and how is this done? But the more that I read it, the more that it clicked. I wouldn't say that I am a very intentional person...more of a reactionary person than a proactive person. And then there are those moments when I do know what I want but don't know how to get it. I tend to follow the style of the other person and then get down on myself because this does not work for me which prolongs the cycle.

Anyway, I'm rambling. Your points took aim and hit. Instead of looking at everyone elses' style/standards & changing mine for each situation, I need to get comfortable in my own skin and make them meet me where I am.

Any practical suggestions on body language would be helpful as well as calming exercises. Your right about being comfortable vs not being comfortable effecting ones ability to make snappy comebacks. I worry way too much about the what if's in getting into a debate/discussion. And I tend to make my arguements based on emotional reactions (buttons pushed).

And Jimmo, it looks like your suggestion of practicing my technique might be in order. I'll have to check out that book.

[/QUOTE]

Hmmm I don't know if this fits for anyone.

I've found that as ADHD'ers we so often think that we're wrong somehow that we too often let others shove us around when we should be, as someone above noted, controlling the conversation better.

We're so busy stopping ourselves from blurting out "stupid" off-topic subjects that when someone is rude and we feel our tongues wanting to say, "who the Frag are YOU to speak to me like that?" [or something similar] we clap our hands over our mouths in case we are somehow "wrong" again.

I once said in a room full of mentally ill people that 90% of mental illness would be solved tomorrow if we all just knew when to tell someone to "Flock Off!"

Being ADDer's we are all impulsive in one way or another. That alone makes us blurt out the first thing we think of when asked a question.

Add that to the fact that many ADDers have esteem issues from spending our whole life being compared to "Non ADDers." (Personally I think this should be treated as a self-respect issue myself though.) Anyway, after years of being told we are inferior to the norm in some area or another, If we are not carefull we begin to believe we are inferior. We get so used to defending our actions sometimes that we instinctivly go on the defensive in a conversation/conflict.

In Laymen's terms: Impulsive + the fear of looking inferior again = Saying things before we think in the hopes we don't look stupid for taking to long to answer. Ironically thats what makes us look stupid, not because we are inferior.

Try pausing before responding in the next conversaion you have. The worst that could happen is you perceive yourself as looking stupid. ( I'm 36 and ADHD, I'm quite used looking stupid,lol) The best that could happen is you give a surprisingly good response.

Over the last 2 years I have had to look inward and grow as a person. I would like to share a few things that have made me feel more comfortable in my own skin, and therefore helped me be more assertive and less defensive.

(Disclaimer, These are more a state of mind and my beliefs gathered through research than actual undeniable fact.)

ADHD is not as much of a disability as the fact that society has evolved to no longer have a place for us within it. ( Hunter/Gatherer theory) ADHD has its strengths and advantages. Its not all just deficiencies. Just as we all have different varying symptoms of ADHD, we also have different strengths attributed to ADHD. Find what those strengths are in yourself and draw strength from them instead of drawing self doubt from what we suck at. I have always had trouble remembering to pay my bills on time. I have made a genuine attempt to fix this in me. I have owned the fact that this will probably never change. On the flip side of the ADHD coin is the fact that I can repair almost any electronics or mechanical problem I get my hands on. My point is, don't waste your life trying to fix things about yourself that probably aren't really important to the big picture. Instead, focus on what you CAN do and do well. Know and learn to recognize that there are certian skill sets that are perfect for taking advantage of the typical ADHD person. Some in particular that stand out. ( Workplace Bully, Narccasist, Invalidators) These somewhat overlap, but they are an ADDers worst enemy. I recommend reading a book like "Nasty People" by Jay Carter. Its relatively short (100 pages) and inexpensive, but also invaluable information. I have seen this information in other forms, its just better presented for us ADHD in this particular book. (Greeneyed, knowing how to spot these manipulation tactics in a conversation might give you some insight.) Most important of all is having acurate self-respect. I used to make the mistake of trying to fix something within myself without first really knowing who I am. Knowing realisticly what I can do, cannot do, change and not change gives me a better reference point before I can measure change.

Sidenote, In an argument that you would even consider saying "Flock Off" never tell someone to "Flock off". Thats like saying "You win." They interpret that as you being mad and frustrated cause they are right. I don't know everything, but I am an accomplished smartass.

I have also done a lot of inward looking and can only support the attitude that "ADHD has its strengths and advantages. Its not all just deficiencies." In fact, I would go so far as to say that most of the normies I know have difficiencies when it comes to things like brain-storming or being creative, in general. I am a network and system admin for a company that provides datacenter services. I am frequently called upon and called by normies who need a solution to a particular problem because I can come up with a solution.

I get into trouble sometimes because I discuss things to death, but most of the time I have thought about things none of the others did. I do technical writing as a hobby and have had a number of things published. I can explain complex topics in a way that most anyone can understand. I can get an assignment from an editor to do an article on something I was unfamiliar with before I started and put together a good piece of work on short notice.

I have about a dozen projects going on at once. Each is making progress and sometimes even more progress than projects that normies are managing, because I am very conscious of the fact I must organize myself. I end up being more organized than many other people and things get done. However, there are times when I get side-tracked, hyper-focused and so on, but I just say "darn!!!" and move on.

In many cases, I see certain deficiencies in normies, but because we are no longer hunter/gatherers, lacking certain skills is no longer deadly. The ability to sit glued to a desk for 8 hours a day is a needed skill today, whereas it would have gotten you killed 2000 years ago.

I don't want to sound like I am bragging (too much), but Parduse is right. You have to concentrate on the areas where you are good. Know that you are good at them. Accept the fact that you are good at them and not others. Respect the fact you are good at certain things, but not others. If you can respect the good things about yourself, you can respect yourself.

Keep in mind also that the technology that has made our abilities a deficiency can also be used to our advantage. You can get automatic reminders via email to pay your bills or they can be deducted automatically. You have any number of schedulers and planners to help you keep track of things. Cell phones, watches and PDAs all have alarms. The list goes on.

I don't let wearing glasses keep me from driving and I don't let normies' expectations of me keep me from succeeding.

Don't take this the wrong way, but you may be looking in the wrong place to start. I don't mean this site, this site is great.

What I mean is make sure your self-respect and self-esteem are where they should be. Take it from a big smartass. Its all about being comfortable with yourself.In a real conversation the person with accurate self-respect and high self-esteem will usually control the conversation.

In a verbal smack down its more whose willing to go farther to win.

Also, from your post it sounds like you let the other person set the tone for the confrontaion. They use their tone, their topics and their pace. No one said you have to play by those rules. Try just bursting out loud laughing when they are trying to make a point. Practice using silence. Us ADDers love to talk, but sometimes silence is much stronger. Or just refuse to argue at the pace the other person is arguing at. Take your time till the words come to you.

Learn body language, it can be just as powerful as a snappy comeback.

With me if I am relaxed and don't feel unduely threated, the smartass comments flow like slobber from a baby.

Interestingly enough I just now logged in because I have the opposite problem in that I do not know when to stop with certain, uh, discussions.

I read the book Gentle Art of Verbal Self-defence by Suzette Haden Elgin twice and recommended it to my son (18). I won't teach you to be witty, but it does present a number of situation and how to avoid putting your foot in your mouth or escalating the situation.

I'll bet that you can follow the conversations, it's just that your mind wanders off in the middle and having trouble jumping back in. I had a similar problem until I starting taking quick notes about what I want to say, which freed me to continue listening. I can then go back to my notes when in is "my turn". This not always possible, like when your run into someone in the hall, but it help train me to listen better. If you are like me, your mind is going in 68 directions at once and the notes allow me to save the ideas for later.

These note also help me with the directions, instructions, etc. I have a large stack of Post-Its on my desk and when I think of something to do "now" or when I get ask to do something, I write it on the Post-It and stick it to my keyboard. (If you don't have one, there is certainly some other place to stick it. ) Even if I start the task right away, the note is a great reminder if I wander off before I am done.

Another thing I have found useful is to think about the conversation after it is done. What did you want to say? What should you have said? What not? What you should say/not say is almost always situation dependent, but I feel that reflecting on what should have been said is a go way of preparing for the next time. It's like any skill: you need to practice.

regards,

jimmo

Hmmm I don't know if this fits for anyone.

I've found that as ADHD'ers we so often think that we're wrong somehow that we too often let others shove us around when we should be, as someone above noted, controlling the conversation better.

We're so busy stopping ourselves from blurting out "stupid" off-topic subjects that when someone is rude and we feel our tongues wanting to say, "who the Frag are YOU to speak to me like that?" [or something similar] we clap our hands over our mouths in case we are somehow "wrong" again.

I once said in a room full of mentally ill people that 90% of mental illness would be solved tomorrow if we all just knew when to tell someone to "Flock Off!"

You know, when I first read this my initial reaction was, "Why don't you flock off? If you had read my post thoroughly, you would know that you are just regurgitating what I said in my reply." Maybe mine has a bit more chunks in there but still the same content.

But then my "clamping my hand over my mouth" reaction takes over. Two thoughts:

Maybe this guy is smarter/quicker/crueler than me (the baby slobber thing) and I will get in way over my head. *not being comfortable with myself & thinking that someone has to win instead of just discussing* Maybe this guy has been told he can't follow/read directions enough in his life and why should I be that cruel. *empathizing way too much with the other person due to my own hurt feelings*

I feel what you are saying and I know that I get pushed around alot due to that feeling of "just another time that I put my foot in my mouth or I saw the situation completely wrong & they will let me know quickly." Everyone can't be right all of the time but as an ADDer, I feel like I am wrong a bit more of the time or perhaps some it is not being able to make my point the way I want to. I can be very blunt at times, esp. when I am uninhibited (once I told a guy his sweater was very ugly and my sister had to smooth the situation for me), and I have been programmed to think bluntness is cruelty. But sometimes it is just reality.

So these are my own tips that I am trying to learn (does anyone find it hard to get the little things):

own my feelings and be ready to be right or wrong without feeling like I'm a terrible person either way. let others own their feelings; stop playing the nursemaid emotions are contagious/transparent; if you feel in control and respect yourself, then others will know it & vice versa. "Fake it til you make it" to go along with the one before about emotions being contagious --> give myself a group of people where I can be completely myself and practice my verbal sword fighting skills there. learn to know when to tell others to "flock off"

And Jimmo, it looks like your suggestion of practicing my technique might be in order. I'll have to check out that book.

I ordered 2 more copies of "Boundaries" for my family. I grew up in a family thats probably much like Greeneyed's boyfriend's family. We are a close family, but still pick at each other. After starting the book I realized that my family is its own worst enemy. We pick each other apart instead of building each other up.

So staying on topic here is my point. I didn't realize how much damage my own family does to itself on a regular basis. The area of the family that is damaged is the part that would normaly reinforce emotional security of your boundaries. Without that you can't have conflict or be assertive without feeling that your wrong for disagreeing.

My point to this is that my not being assertive is not from my ADHD, but rather from somewhere else. I had to find the source of my problem to know how to address it. Instead of just pushing myself to be more assertive while silently outside influences were defeating me.

From everything I am reading, assertiveness and confrontation are all part of healthy human development.

So I pose a question to anybody having an issue with this. Why am I not assertive? What has happened in the course of my life that has denied me this ability? What do i need to do, or undo to fix this?

Please tell me you guys agree!! Just kidding, co-dependency joke.

I am glad that this conversation took this turn. It would seem that outward delivery is only half the problem...for me anyway. I began looking up the meanings/signs of bullies,narcissitics, invalidators after you mentioned these Parduse. As I began reading, people's faces began to come to mind: my father, my ex-husband, a couple of co-workers, some old school mates, even my current boyfriend.

I have begun to get to know my current boyfriends' family more and more....I promise, I have a point. Anyway, I began to notice a pattern of them picking at each other. It was much like watching a dog being in a cage and people poking him with a stick for entertainment. They had been doing it to each other long enough that they knew what would give each person a rise.

Add&Proud - this is my point. I can tell that they are starting to poke around at me to see where I am vulnerable. I try my hardest to just laugh EVERYTHING off because, as cliche' as it sounds, you can't let them see you sweat. And these people seem to really like me or so I'm told!

I am so much like you in the fact that I want to know why someone is being mean to me/why they don't like me. But sometimes it really doesn't have much to do with us but more to do with them. I have only gotten halfway through my boundaries book but can recommend it as well. Book discussion group anyone? Also, I have noticed that the more isolated I am from friends, true friends, the more these kind of people get to me. I suppose that is why it is one of their tactics - to isolate you. I got this book title from one of the websites: Why is it always about you? Saving yourself from the Narcissists in your Life" by Sandy Hotchkiss. Still so much to learn...

Lanelise - your answer was very practical. In fact, I began going back over some of my past confrontations and found where I could have used this. My problem with doing this is that when in a confrontation, I become very emotionally charged. In fact, most of the time I can't even recall what was said but can only tell you how I felt and what their body language looked like. The times that I have been able to control my emotions are the times that the confrontation really was beneficial and not used as further evidence of my inability to be assertive.

Jimmo- Yes, you are bragging...but that's ok. Goodness knows we all need some bragging time.

Such a noob here, but am enjoying reading posts, threads where others have the same reactions and problems I do. Hallelujah! I'm not a nut!

I am very confrontational if someone prods me. Got put on probation at my last job for that problem (actually, I cursed my boss out one too many times, but....in my defense, I was darned tired of being his punching bag because he was mad at his ex wife and couldn't attack HER).

I do not have an issue with coming up with rebuttals. A person will have to have me dead to rights on the topic before I concede defeat. Mom calls it "having the last word." I call it making sure they don't try the same thing twice.

I am extremely detail oriented. I don't know what you all call it. I've noticed in the posts that everyone seems to know what KIND of ADD they are and I don't think I've ever been told there are types. Anyway, (sidetracked for a sec) like I said, you have to have me dead to rights. I'll just argue you down until you give up or concede the fact that I'm right (as usual) and you're wrong (as usual). Being very, very anal about details gives me the ammunition to shoot back when people come after me.

My usual solution to dealing with these confrontations (so long as it's not the old boss) is to pick the argument apart, using the ammo I spoke about. "What makes you think THAT?" I ask, in a slightly disbelieving tone of voice and emphasis on the last word. Pick it apart. Unless the person has some truly reasonable issues, and you'll know they're reasonable, we all have the voice in our head that tells us when we're BS'ing ourselves, you should be able to just demolish the argument using plain old facts. So long as it's NOT your boss, LOL, cold logic ought to make the majority of the issues go away.

I don't like confrontation, despite what some around me think, but I have no problems wading into the fray if someone gives me a good reason to do so.

Did I dance all around the question, or did I answer it?

Add&Proud

At the advice of my ADHD doc I just started reading a book called "Boundaries". So far I find this book to be very relevant. I have somewhat of a problem with co-dependencey and boundries AKA ( I care to much what other people think.) I'm not saying you are just like me, but you sound just like I do sometimes.

I think you do care what this person thinks ( Whether you want to or not )or you wouldn't have gone to the trouble of posting about it. I used to say " I don't really care what they think." Until one day I realized I wasn't saying it to convince other people, I was saying to convince myself.

Currently I care to much what other people think. Therefore my mood is set by other peoples opinion. Thats a warning sign of dependency and misplaced boundaries.

Who wrote the book Parduse? I'll have to take a look at it.

Maybe you're right. Maybe I do care. Maybe I just can't understand why someone would make a character judgement about me based on a few comments made while pissed off. Maybe I just can't figure out why someone wouldn't like me? I really am a lot of fun, really nice, smart (or I like to think so), I don't belittle, attack or harrass unless given good reason. They have to start it. Maybe I just don't understand meanness for the sake of meanness. What is the point of it? To make yourself feel better? I don't get it.

I grew up in a co-dependent house. Communication was all about the nuances, the raised eyebrow, tone, setting, being talked about behind your back. No one ever really said what they really thought. Fortunatly I escaped that and thanks to my husband learned how the real world communicates. Now I can look at it a little more objectively. But I can revert really quick.

The authors are Dr. Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend.

Except for the part about you being a women, everything else sounds just like me. Even the home situation.

One word. Narcissism. Know it and learn how to see it. I didn't really know what it really meant until I was 3 years into a very emotionally abusive marriage.

Think of it like this. Whether at home or at work these people have exactly the right skillset to take advantage of people like us. They literally live off of watching us try to make them happy, all the while manipulating us to think its our fault. They draw strength from watching us struggle to "help them understand" or " make them like us."

I'm not trying to portray gloom and doom at all, but I am trying to stress that if you are a person willing to give to much of yourself to other people, then you are a candidate for manipulation. I was manipulated, and it was because I grew up in a household of subtle manipulations. Ironically my close family is what saved me from my wife.

Other types of people manipulate, and this person may just take joy in watching you squirm. I just mentioned narcissism first becuase they are dangerous and because it seems to be ADHD peoples Kryptonite.

I'm finding this subject particularly relevant tonight. I posted a new topic somewhat related to it.

Basically it is, how do you deal with someone that you've come to realize does not like you and you have no idea why.

Back story- I post on another board and a person has apparently picked me to not like. No idea why. It's just pointed barbs and subtly bitchy verbal attacks. So subtle that you really can't tell if they are directed at me or not. I'm not stupid and I know that they are. Yes, I know it's cyber-world and in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter. I really and truly don't give a crap whether this person likes me or not. Obviously they are an idiot if they don't and obviously don't know me.

There is a part of me that really really wants to just poke this person simply for the amusement of pissing this person off. But then I think that that will make me seem like the mean one. But then I find myself being nice and walking on by. I'm getting tired of it. I want a smack-down for the sake of a smack-down. I'm getting tired of this person's verbal bullying. Even if it is in cyber-world.

I'm thinking I may need to get that book.