Need advice | ADHD Information

hi,

my daughter sally who has adhd and some other promblems , reduced me to tears this afternoon

I was cooking tea, and i put a sharpe knife on the table after peeling the poatoe's, sally walked into thee kitchen as i turned round she pi rsicked the knife up and was standing with it close to her neck as to slit her thorat, my heart missed a bit , i told her clamly to put the knife down which she did, then she said she hate's herself and everybody and she would be better off dead, i nearly burst into  tear's, anyhow after sitting with her for 15min, she thought she was'nt doing well at school which she is, and she has'nt any friend's to play with, i know that is a big issue with her latley,  At school she say'speople stare at her , i know she had a friend but now the girl is playing with someone eles, sally finds it hard to mix, she is also visually impaaired, hard of hearing and ocd, it worrie's me now, her older brother spoke to her outside on the swing which nearly made me cry again.i told her we all love her and what would i do with out her she said it would be quite, hope to hear from you soon

margaret

p.s she is'nt on any med, part from sleeping tablets

Hello Madhouse,

You are asking a serious question that would warrant its own thread.  Please click on "New Topic" and copy your post there so that you get answers specific to your question.  My own question would be, are you getting any long-term medical support for her ADHD, OCD, hearing and visual impairments?

Joy

How old is your child? Makes a big difference in deciding how to handle this.

Dizfriz

Hi Catwade,

Your description of your son sounds exactly like mine without Ritalin.  I have always kind of under-medicated him at home because I didn't like the "idea" of the medication, but I am beginning to understand that this is a real mistake.  It wouldn't be too hard to get your son on a longer-acting form of methylphenidate and then boost it in the evening. 

The food thing is really hard.  I let my son eat whenever he is hungry, although this really goes against my upbringing (and causes my mom great despair ), but he doesn't have the sweet tooth that your son has.  Craving sweets is a great challenge.  I'm just thinking off the top of my head, but maybe having cereal around with whole grains and some sugar but not as sweet as Cocoa Puffs (i.e. Honey Nut Cheerios; oatmeal with honey or a little Nesquik; and PB Captain Crunch actually has quite a bit of protein for cereal).   If you just have those around the house and he gets hungry, he won't have a choice.  Also, I don't keep cookies around the house at all (mainly so I won't eat them .)

I'm sure I gave some foodies reading this a heart attack, and I apologize for that, but I do what I've got to do to keep my son from blowing away.   We do eat completely whole grain toast with jelly and a lot of scrambled eggs.  Some kids will eat peanut bars or protein bars, which also mix sweet with some decent nutrition.  I look for ways to mix healthy with enough sweet that it will go down.  One big thing is -- look for whole grains instead of enriched flour, which is nutritionally useless.  You can get whole grains in EVERYTHING now, so it's pretty easy and it will give him some much-needed nutrition. We are a far cry from perfect in our eating habits, but I am happy with the results right now.  And if he wants to eat at 8:30, after the Ritalin is out of his system -- fine with me.  One thing I am not willing to battle over is food.  We have enough other things to worry about with these kids.

We just ditched our old reward system for the marble system, too, and it is GREAT.  There is just something about marbles that kids love ....  All of the neighbor kids want to join in, too!  Check out that post -- it's incredibly valuable.

Joy
I also wanted to add ...

We tried spanking our son a couple times years ago, and it just didn't work.  He spanked us back!  That showed me that I was just being a role model for his behavior. 

Also, my mom spanked me and disciplined me overly harshly quite a bit when I was little, although I was an easy kid (banging our heads together when we fought as kids -- how stupid is that??? Can you IMAGINE someone doing that nowadays?).  I think that she felt that she had to to show her authority during those times when I misbehaved, which ALL children do at times.  I did not have the personality to become defiant, but we have NEVER had a close relationship, and I attribute it to that.  Although she took good care of me and I know she loved me, I just don't have warm, fuzzy feelings toward her.  She still has that belief in authority and hierarchy, and I see it in her fear of people "above" her and her slight arrogance toward people "below" her.  She has had GREAT trouble getting along with my son and will never have a good relationship with him, either.  Luckily, I have had the education and support to get beyond doing things the way my parents did them!

I am not saying that your son will have those feelings toward you when he is older, but please consider this from someone who has been on the receiving end.  My mom always threatened to bring me to a counselor when I became a "difficult" adolescent (i.e. normal), and I wish she would have!!!  I think that a counselor would have helped her find better ways to deal with problem behaviors.

Anyway, with the severely ADHD kids, medicating all day is almost the only hope, IMHO.  You will not feel that rage because he will be his "real" self all day.  I notice a huge difference in my blood pressure and mental outlook when my son is properly medicated vs. running wild.  We all know how these kids test the outer boundaries of our emotions.

Joy

catwade78

You are getting a lot of very good ideas here.

Some suggestions: Some kids you can make behave but ADHD kids usually do not number in these. They usually do not respond well to force. The do respond well to rules and consequences when they are consistent, predicable, and realistic.

I consider the concept that a "if you get upset they win, if you don't you do" to be vital. Seen from this viewpoint, spanking after a bunch of warnings is (to the kid) is a clear sign of your defeat in that the kid is deciding the rules, how big the fight is going to be, when it is going to be and so on. He has you like a puppet on a string. Even if he gets in trouble, he as won because he gained control.  Besides, to him at this point the only reason he is being punished is because you are being mean..not his fault and little behavior changes.

Now, if you can calmly set a rule (example of the clock in the bathroom by Diane V is good example of the method) and enforce it calmly then you are in charge not the kid.

Remember that much of what we see as defiance is simply the kid testing you to see what you will actually do. If the kid sees the parent talk, talk, get mad, talk, more, warn some more, then finally when really pissed off, do a severe punishment; (again) then from the kid's viewpoint, the only reason that he is getting punished is because you are mad therefore you are being mean and none of it is his responsibility, it is all yours.  "Hay it's mom's fault, she didn't make me mind so now I am in trouble. "

Give one warning, The next time the action occurs the consequence follows within 15 seconds max.  You will begin to see changes in behavior over time. Keep focused on the speed being the key, not the severity of the consequence. If it is a directive the give the direction (go to the table). If no compliance say for example "if you do not decide to go to the table, you decide to skip dessert....count 3...2....1. OK you decided to skip dessert. If the resistance continues then do something like "If you decide to not go to the table, then you choose to go to you room and I will come in after supper and let you know the consequences....don't worry about what it will be, just put it out of your mind". (let them sweat a little).  You can deal with this after supper, be sure to keep in mind he was just testing you but  You.....will......pass! Do it with a smile if you can.. a wicked grin is acceptable. No second chances, once the kid decides his  consequences by his behaviors then it is a done deal. A good rule...those that talk lose, those that act win. Simplistic perhaps,  but for the most part-quite accurate.

Your job is not to make the kid mind, you, in truth, cannot really do this (this is where the power struggles occur).  Your job is to set the rules and enforce the consequences. Make the kid responsible for his behavior decisions. Put it back on the child. Why should you be responsible for your kids bad behavior decisions.

ADHD kids are tough to raise. They don't respond to the more traditional methods but need ADHD focused methods.

An irony: One might think that because they have a disability they need more slack.  No! ADHD kids need more consequences than non ADHD kids to help them make the connection between the behaviors and the consequences but keep in mind again it is the speed that is the key not the severity. When getting an out of control kids into control, there is no problem with 20-30 time outs a day...short ones but lots of them. 

ADHD kids are real good at taking all the things we thought we knew about parenting and turning them into rubble.

Keep plugging, Despite my best efforts, all three of my kids turned out pretty well.

Diz

 

Cat, some of what you are describing is normal child behavior, IMO. Lots of kids don't listen the first or even the second time. Our reaction to that is what conditions and "sets" the behavior. You have to find a way to nullify it and then stick to it like it's written in stone, no matter what.

When you child is not on his meds, is there a reason? Is it just to give a break for a day or some other reason? You have to remember that these are very strong meds and just like many other meds, there is a sort of "recovery" time. In one or two days off of meds your child can still be coming off the stimulants and behave like a person is coming off a controlled substance. I know that's not too popular to hear, but it is true. I've seen it in my own son and other adhd children. It could be a week or more med-free before you see your child's true med-free behavior. That's why dr's like a child to go two weeks med-free while they are assessing whether a child has progressed past needing them.

The food issue is hard, because as my son says "Mom, I'm just not hungry and when you force me to eat, it gags me."   He literally ends up feeling nauseated when we make him fulfill a certain number of bites. He eats a good (though not huge) breakfast with a vitamin, generally skips lunch, and then chows steadily from about 6pm until bedtime. So far he's gaining steadily and has recovered any weight he lost when he first started the meds. Unfortunately for you, the defiance and tantrums you see may be blood-sugar related if your child won't eat. If you can pinpoint a time of day when these tantrums seems to happen more, you could circumvent a few by giving a good carbo snack about 30 minutes before. It's worth the time to try to figure it out.

Just one more question for you to consider: As pertains to food, is there a virtue in "eating it all?" If so, what is it?

All of you have given me some very helpful advice, and I'm looking forward to implementing the marbles and egg-timer into our routine. 

My concern with my son's diet is that he "always has room for sweets" but when it comes to healthy food or the dinner that I've prepared, he doesn't want it.  There's occasion when he's actually asked me for an apple or carrot sticks, and I'm more than happy to indulge that request, but more often than not he's asking for cocoa puffs, or cookies.  I am trying to modify his diet to include sugar free varieties of his favorite snacks like pudding and the like so that when he does want them, he's more than welcome to have them.  I've been giving him Pediasure to try to pump up his calorie intake due to the loss of appetite with the meds, but he's just not hungry as often as I'd like him to be, and I'm just scared of him losing too much weight.  He's always been on the small side of the spectrum for his age group anyway.  He's only 3 feet tall if that, and weighs 35 lbs.  He'll be six in 3 months, and even size 4T clothing is very big on him.

I must admit, I'm easily frustrated when we get into these power struggles and resort to spanking to end the power struggle.  I know that's taking the quick way out, and it actually gives my child more power, so it's great to know there are other alternatives that will help us get through this better.  I'll keep you all posted on the progress there.

He does see a pediatrician, and I'm going to need to make another appointment to see what else we can put him on cause the Ritalin, while it helps during the school day, doesn't help in the evening or first thing in the morning.  I know it's gonna take some time and tweaking, we just started medicating mid-June. 

[QUOTE=Dizfriz]

How old is your child? Makes a big difference in deciding how to handle this.

Dizfriz

[/QUOTE]

sally is 9 years old, she told me that she get's depressed sometimes, and wants to die. she was on conerta xl for a while as well as ritial, then she got trouttess and tic's the school don'nt want to her to go back on the med's., i have done a new topic as you said

 

Hi, I'm new to this forum, and new to having a child with ADHD.  My son is 5 1/2 years old, and was diagnosed in May as being ADHD.   My son's favorite behavior is tantrums when he doesn't get his way, and that has gone so far as to get my husband arrested for alleged child abuse for spanking him in public (that's another story altogether!) 

He's on Ritalin right now, and I'm kind of concerned about the weight thing cause he's small to begin with, not to mention a picky eater.  When he's on his meds (which seems to last all through school, but wears off by late afternoon) he's an angel for the most part.  We're suffering in the mornings and in the evenings.  We chose the Ritalin because he's so young we needed a medication that could be sprinkled on the food as opposed to him having to swallow a pill, and Ritalin fit that need.  He takes 20mg in the morning before school and another 10mg at noon to carry him through the rest of the school day. 

 

When he's not on his meds, he is extremely defiant, seems to have selective hearing, and is very hyperactive.  He sometimes even runs laps around the house just for no apparent reason.  If you tell him no, he whines and cries.  If you try to make him eat all his food, he begins negotiating (i.e. five more bites and then i'm done?)

Bath time is hard cause he spends most of the time trying to see just how much of a mess he can make, and you have to tell him 200 times to wash and then he throws a fit when you tell him it's time to get out.

My husband and I are at our wits end with this.  My husband and I are old school and will often resort to spanking when he overly defiant.  I'd rather not spank him, but I don't know what else I can do.  Please help!!!

 

 

Read the Marbles thread posted at the top.

Something to realize, spanking and yelling just escallate the negative behaviors. There may come a time when he gets aggressive and physical with you and/or your husband. Also the conflict can damage the parent/child ondy and make him even less likely to comply. I know this from educating myself and from personal experience with my youngest daughter.

As NoTellin has suggested, look at the marble thread for a good positive reinforcment behavior plan.

Dr Barkley has books on ADHD and behavior that may help:

http://www.russellbarkley.org/barkley-books-videos.htm

Also, if you have a children's hospital or university nearby, that has a children's development center, they usually offer parenting classes for challenging kids and other services that are helpful through this ADHD journey. If not, you can find a psychologist that works with behavior issues in children. They can help you with parenting these special kids.

Talk to the doc about the meds. I would try a long acting form of the med (maybe daytrana) and see if you can leave it on until bedtime. Some people with ADHD actually sleep better with meds in thier system, while the meds interfer with sleep for others. If that is not an option, adding guanfacine (see the long Tenex thread in the medication forum) can help with impulsivity, defiance and hyperactivity and even sleep and appetite. There are so many options to taylor the meds for the individual so do not lose hope. Are you seeing a psychiatrist or pediatrician? I ask because in general, psychiatrists are more experienced in med management.

There is so much more help to persue but this is too long as it is. I just want you to know you are not alone and will find help and support here.

I'll  just throw in my two cents on some specific thoughts.

My 5 1/2 year old (no ADHD diagnosis) negotiates how many bites for her diiner too. She would much rather play than sit for dinner, kids hate to sit at the table and eat dinner, they want to come and snack so they dont feel hungry, then go off and play.

We used to have this bathtub issue too, I use an egg timer. It took a few battles, but seems to work well now. I fill the tub, tell them you have 10 minutes to play, if the water goes everywhere, you're OUT. No questions just OUT. There were some days of kicking screaming and me taking her out fo the tub (she was younger then), but no discussion I just took her out and walked away. This way she knew I meant business. After that it was ok. 10 minutes, when timer goes off I come in and help you wash your hair (she thinks she can do it by herself), then you get 5 more minutes to play (neatly), then when timer goes off out goes the water. It's a plan, they know about it ahead, and now it avoids (for the most part) the battles.

Good luck, they KEY is consistency and avoiding conflcit, they will yell and scream, we have to try not to. The less fight you give them, the less they want to.

Can I suggest something for after school to expend that pent up energy. If no formal activity at least some playground time to run around. Some people plan drop in playgorups at a local playground that people can bring kids and just all meet and let them run around freely for an hour or so after schoool. Great way to make friends AND expend some of that energy. 

Hi catwade78! Welcome to adhdnews.com! It's great to see a new parent logging on!

Your situation is very similar to mine. My wife and I are in our mid-40's ("old school") and we have one boy...Jacob, who is now 8 yrs old and doing VERY well on medication and counseling.

Jacob was dx when he was a kindergartener at age 6. But even before he was dx I knew he had a problem. One time, as a toddler, he threw a MAJOR tantrum in a store. I picked him up, and as I was leaving he was kicking me as hard as he could, and trying to bite me! I can relate to what your husband is going through! Many, many times I resorted to physically retraining him, and spanking him to get him to cooperate. But since then I stopped being forceful with Jacob. I was lucky to never be arrested for spanking Jacob in public, or dragging him by the arm to get him out of a place before he did harm to himself or others.

A couple years ago I had many mixed emotions about Jacob. At one moment I hated him and wished he never was born, yet at other times I loved him more than Heaven and Earth. What I hated the most was the kind of person I was becoming...a mean daddy who always screamed at his precious little boy, pulling and dragged him around. It just came down to the point where I just cried out to God and said "I need help!"

As the months passed, I became a much better parent. I think I improved because of these reasons... . (You may want to pass this on to your husband.)

- I understood that my son's BAD behavior was not intentional. It was caused by ADHD. My son did not want to act BAD, he could not help it, until we got help for him.

- I understood that my son's hyperactive behavior was not because he was "crazy" but because he was trying to do something that made him feel better (calmer). Take for instance, many ADHD kids run around the house and slam into walls or furniture. I believe they do this because it causes their brain to produce a chemical that calms them.

- I saw that being forceful with Jacob only made things worse. He would not back down and often times he would just fight back.

- I understood that the right kind of medication will not cure my son's ADHD, it only gives him the ability to do better if he had the right motivation. So I learned a few parenting skills on how to motivate kids without spanking them.

- I learned that I was also ADHD. That helped expain many things about myself and why I often wanted to spank instead of think things through. (I don't like to take the time to stop and think. I just want to act NOW!) It was then I started to trust my wife more and rely on her judgement (she's not ADHD).

- I knew that if I continued to force my son to act right, he would eventually grow up to hate me. I also feared that if didn't change my wife would take Jacob and leave me.

- I gave up my life-long fantacy to have a "picture-perfect" family. After all, is there such a thing as a perfect family?!

- As time went by, and as we continued to take Jacob to the doctor every 6-8 weeks, and as we experimented with 4 types of meds and therapy, Jacob got MUCH better. His tantrums are far and few between and we are acting like a normal family now.

I believe that your family life will get much better as time goes by. Your on the right track. Just keep taking him back to the doctor and discussing his progress and pitfalls. Many doctors like to start on a certain type of medication at first, (usually a low dose of a stimulant) and then tweek the dosage or change the type of med if it's not showing significant signs of improvement.

I hope what I had to share is helpful to you and others.Dad in Akron39346.3434143519Your son is 51/2? mine is 9 and does all those things. I am thinking we need a booster med for the afternoon and evening activities. We have an appt. next week. I know exactly how you feel but mine has been going on longer. I hope you find relief(call your doctor) and let him know what is going on.