Tempory exclusion from school | ADHD Information
I agree a thourough ivestigation as to what is going on here warrants a new eval perhaps. My son would clam up and say nothing. A few weeks into play therapy (he is 9) and he has started to open up to the doc. Only problem is he has to change at the end of the year due to insurance. ODD usually does better with the therapy than the meds and is very hard to deal with. Bi-polar does better with the medications. I would want a new eval done to determine what is what.Hi Bethann,
Thank you for your advice,
I totally agree with you on the stims as I have heard it so many times
(mostly on here) how detremental they can be for a bipolar sufferer,
and because of the way that Josh started behaving on the stims, I
decided to try a non stimulant med instead, the trouble I have is that,
he has now been off any kind of stimulant med since August, and he is
still getting worse as far as the aggression goes, so at the moment his
(phyc) doctor thinks that this behaviour was always going to come out,
and that because taking him off the stims, and putting him on Imiprine
(low dose anti-D) had no effect, that it is probably due to the ODD
part of his dx.
So thats why we are now on to the Chlonodine, as it is also a non
stimulant, so I'm guessing that even if there is a bipolar aspect to
his behaviour, that these last 2 meds should not make it worse in the
same way that a stimulant would.
However, this being said, the (phyc) doctor has himself said that
should the new meds, and the family therapy not work...that he will
himself be asking for a re-evaluation, incase there is something that
he is missing, which I guess in some cases, it could be easy to
miss the little, more subtle things, especially when there is so much
anger and aggression coming out which is a very obvious hard to miss
thing, so anything else could be hidden, or masked by it.
I also said all this to the phyc doctor and he did aggree with me, and
said that they try to treat the most obvious cause first, and then if
that doesn't work then they have to rethink things.
I actually have a great amount of trust in my sons phyc doctor,
he does really seem to listen, the only thing that I do worry about
with him is that I don't think he 'believes' in bipolar kids, as when I
surgested it, he said that it is extreamly rare. that he doesn't know
of any kids with it, and that Josh's 'cycles are to
quick..........however I do know that this is wring, and that with an
adult, it is possible to cycle only a few times a year, but that with a
child, it can be a few times a day, and there is a part of me that
still thinks he could be bipolar, thats why I'm keeping him off stims.
Out of interest, what is the treatment for bipolar?
Its just that as I have said before, the only licenced anti-d for use in depression with kids is Prozac.
(which interestingly his phyc doctor didn't object to, but then he knows how unhappy my son is)
Hi,
I know the clonodine has not been taken for long enough, his doctor
recons that it will be several weeks before he is at the correct dose,
and then another few weeks before there is any real noticable
difference...that is of course if he can tolerate it, as it can make
you increadably tired, and lower the blood preasure!
so heres hoping it actually works.
His doctor that he sees practically every week, is a child
phychologist, he is the one who gave us the dx, the doc also has
said that most of the behaviour that Josh is displaying is down to the
ODD, but that because of the ADD it means that he has the tendancy to
react more quickly, without stoping to think if it is a good idea to
throw something or knock a hole in the wall!!
Apparently the ADD & ODD combo, is one of the hardest to treat
effectively....especially if like Josh the child won't tell you whats
going on in their head....Josh's doctor has tried to get him to talk
about how he is feeling but he just clams up, and becomes very
difficult.
We are going to try the family therapy and see what happens, but as I
just said, Josh wont talk, so not sure if it will help, but the doc
seems to think that by taking the focus off of Josh, and saying that
the family have a problem, that it may help him to open up a bit...who
knows? its got to be worth a try, as the alternative is just too
horrible.
I am going to give the Chlonodine until mid December, early Jan, (if
the side effects don't kick in too bad ) before I make any desisions
about its effectiveness, and I think I will do my own research on the
Prozac, in the mean time, my reasons for not wanting it are basically
as I said before about the suisidal thing, and the fact that my Husband
is also very much against it, I think he was on it once and had a bad
time, and I know of alot of people that have had it, and they just seem
to loose their personality, and seem to be like zombies (this is all
adults though) so I shall research on children, and see, but I will not
be putting him back on stims again, thats deffinate, as they really,
really did not help.
[QUOTE=Gwen]Hi,
I am going to give the Chlonodine until mid December, early Jan, (if the side effects don't kick in too bad ) before I make any desisions about its effectiveness, and I think I will do my own research on the Prozac, in the mean time, my reasons for not wanting it are basically as I said before about the suisidal thing, and the fact that my Husband is also very much against it, I think he was on it once and had a bad time, and I know of alot of people that have had it, and they just seem to loose their personality, and seem to be like zombies (this is all adults though) so I shall research on children, and see, but I will not be putting him back on stims again, thats deffinate, as they really, really did not help.
[/QUOTE]
HI again Gwen,
Back to my Bipolar comment on my earlier post, if someone has Bipolar and is taking ADHD stimulants, the stimulants will only make it WORSE. You need to treat the bipolar FIRST, then come back and treat the ADHD.
You may want to check out the bipolar evaluation FIRST, before you play with the meds. He is too young to be going through this.
Are there any specialists nearby that could give you an accurate diagnosis? You cannot just have a doctor decide "ok he is depressed" it needs to be evaluated first then diagnosed properly.
Also, have the ADHD confirmed. If he is NOT ADHD but something else, the meds will not help him, only make him aggesseive, depressed, suicidal, withdrawn, etc, something other than himself. Unless there are JUST behavior issues, like the ones you describe in a 9 year old, something is definetly going wrong!
Just my opinion.!! Please have him evaluated again by a professional in the field!
Regards!!
Hi
The meds that Josh is on now were only started 2 days ago, at a very
low dose to minamilse side effects they have to built up slowly, (thats
why the probably won't start working prperly until 5-6 weeks in) They
are also non-stims as were the last ones as we found that stims really
don't aggree with him, they make the aggression worse.
His doctor has said that if this new drug, and the family therapy don't
work then he will get him re-evaluated by anther phyc doc, from scratch
to see if he is missing anything.
As for bi-polar, I have asked about this, but the doc thinks that his behaviours fit with the ADD&ODD dx for the time being.
I did how ever ask if it would be worth treating him for depression,
and there was no objection on the doc's part only on mine, as the only
licenced med in this contry for children with depression is Prozac,
which I'm not happy about giving him, as it can increase suisidal
thoughts and tendancies, and as Josh has already said that he wants to
kill himself, and he wishes he was dead, never born ect, I don't think
it would be the right thing to give him.
Oh and Josh is actually 9 now, I just forgot to change the signature thing!!
Gwen,
Have you ever tried an stim, and a non stim? My son takes a low dose of Concerta, and Strattera, and it had DONE WONDERS!!! He does take clonidine at night, but that is to help him go to sleep. Have you tried taking him to a neurologist?
Erm.....No, not as yet, unless you count a stim, and sleeping tablets?
Glad your sons getting on well with his meds, I think I need to give
this new med a chance to do its thing...or not, and then have a rethink
from there, and your surgestion may be something that I ask the doc
about, certainly at this stage almost anythings worth a try, although
for now, we are trying not to have him on combos as the risk of side
effects is that much greater.
He hasn't seen a nerologist as yet, although again, worth concidering,
I did ask if it was worth getting a brain scan to see if that would
shed any light, but apparently its very unlikely to show anything, so
not really worth the trauma.
We are how ever getting ed phyc involved, so for school if nothing else
that will be a help, and when we have moved which we are hoping to do
by the start of the new year, Josh will be going to a school that has a
special educational needs team, properly attached to the school, in its
own section, and they also seem more confident about dealing with the
type of behavioural issues that my son seems to have.
I suppose if all else fails, I could always ask a priest to excersise any nasty goasties!!!!!!
(sorry hope that doesn't cause any offense, its just my warpted sense of humor coming out to play)
2 days on Clonidine isnt enough to know. I'd wait that out a bit. Imipramine is an antidepressant. Three months on that is time to know if it would work. I feel you need a more comprehensive evaluation by a neuropsychologist and.or psychiatrist. If he gets more aggressive on stimulants, not better, I'm confused that he is only ADHD. I realize stimulants don't work 100% of the time. Most of this agressiveness may be his ODD though. I would for sure do the family therapy and give the Clonidine some time. Don't cross Prozac off your list completely, it can work wonders. All antidepressants have the increased suciidla thoughts in adolescents and children warning. He would, obviously, need to be closely monitored. That would be the case with any/all medication.
Boy, hnag in there, you really have a full plate right now. Being pregnant your hormones are all over the place, so I feel for you trying to keep your patience through all of this.
Hi
I have not been on for a while as I have had rather a lot to deal with
recently, a while ago I posted about my son's aggressive behaviour, and
the general concensus from you guys was to change his meds....his doc
agreed, so we tried Imiprine for about 3mths, this has had no effect at
all, so now we are down to something called Chlonodine(I think I spelt
that right!) but only on day 2, and after being threatened with
exclusion the week before the hols, he has now been excluded until Mon,
as he was aggressive towards his teachers, throwing books etc, which
did actually hit the teacher, the new meds that he is on will probably
not be working properly for about 5-6weeks, so really hoping they do
actually work, as we have run out of options on the med front, as
everything else has to many nasty side effects.
So Josh has now been sent packing to his Uncles for a few days as from
the minute he got home to the minute his Uncle collected him, all I had
was him threatening to hit me, trying to bite me, and screaming at
me.....(about 2 1/2hrs)
I actually completly lost the plot with him about 2 weeks ago, and if
not for his Uncle he would have been on social services door step, as I
had had enought...
At the moment I am believe it or not feeling very calm about it all,
but I'm not sure how long that will last if I get any more repeat
performances.
The doc is recomending family therapy as the next step, as he see's no
point in trying the behavioural route, as we have already done
everything that they would surgest, but we are starting to run out of
options, as if this doesn't work, then there is not much more they can
surgest....I'm really worried that Josh is going to end up pushing it
too far one day, and seriously hurting someone, or himeslf, and I don't
know what else I can do to help him...I feel totally useless, as if I
don't get him sorted out he will end up in big trouble or in care, as I
can not cope with his behaviour for much longer, I'm having a baby in
March, and there is no way that his behaviour will be tollerated around
a young baby.
Does anyone have any experience of family therapy? and did it help, I would be really happy to hear your input on this one..
Thanks for reading, and sorry if I rambled a bit.
Is he taking any other stimulants? Are you sure the aggressive behavior isn't from clonidine? I just think your son is suffering inside and the aggessive behavior is his way of "letting it out"
He is only 8. Has he had a compete evaluation, for ALL things, even bipolar?
I am not sure about the side effects of clonidine. What about trying adderall or concerta? Are either available?
What does his doctor's say??? I would have reevaluated, head to toe, and go from there. Something is not right for an 8 yr old to be acting.
Please keep us posted about Joshua!
Regards,
Beth
Hi everyone
Thank you for all your help and advice.
Quick up date..
As you know I sent Josh down to his uncles due to his aggression, well
since being there his behaviour was really good, mind you it wasn't as
if he had a choice, his Uncle set him 500 lines saying I will not throw
things at people....well he did them all, including most of his
homework that the school set him, so we though it may be nice for him
to come home.
Big mistake........he came home and went on the trampoline for
about 20mins he was fine, then he started insulting people over the
fence, so I gave him the count of 10 to come back inside or he would be
siting at the table with some work.
He didn't get in, quickly enough, left it till 9 to start
running.....so I sat him at the table, and was about to give him a
wordsearch, (which he enjoys) when he threw something at me.
So I basically told him to do another 6 lines as he had obviously not
learnt his leason yet........major tantrum, he started hitting me,
trying to kick me and throwing things at me, all of which I pretty much
ignored, until he threw something at my 25year old dog, (she was
asleep, bless her) at that point I called his Aunty back and explained
what was occuring, end result, back at his Uncles house.
Then, this is where it gets weird.....he was awlful, until his uncle
got in from work, then calmed down, and when his uncle came over to
pick up some bits that were forgotten in the rush, he started being
very verbally abusive to his Aunty, to the point where she put him
outside ( they live on a farm in the middle of nowhere, so very dark,
cold, and not where to go.)
Unbeknown to Josh his Aunty checked him whilst he was out there, and
could hear him talking to 'someone' and this 'someone' talking
back....(imaginary friend type thing..) this was fine until he started
talking complete jibberish....if you've ever heard someone talking in
tounges, then thats the sort of thing he was doing, this went on for
about 10 mins with no gaps, at which point his Aunty brought him in, as
he was really freeking her out......now just remember he had no way of
knowing she was there.
No for my question........does this really sound like a child with ADHD & ODD, or even CD?
Or does it sound more like Bipola, or Schitzophrenia??
Very worried, and a little scared
Oh
something else I've just remembered, his Aunty said that after he has one of his 'rages' he is really hungry.
So far he has just asked for food and been given whats about, but I
have asked her to see what it is he actually wants to eat, as I'm sure
I read somewhere about carbo cravings conected with bipolar.
does this make any sence to anyone?
I would definitely consider a diagnosis of schizophrenia. Please don't take NO for an answer from the MD. I'm afraid that he is going to hurt you or one of your children. Clonidine, here in the US, is a blood pressure medicine that has been shown to help with sleep in little people with ADHD. I just don't see how the Clonidine could possibly help you, or him, with the symptoms that you are describing. Please, please, even if he has to go inpatient for a short stay, to get meds stabilized, get someone to listen to you. Has your son tried any of the antipsychotics such as Zyprexa, Seroquel, Risperdal etc., or any of the meds for Bi-polar; Lamictal, Abilify????? This doesn't sound like just ordinary ODD behavior!!!
My son, who is five, has ODD and is on Risperdal. It has helped him more with self-control. He takes Clonidine for sleep and Dexedrine during the day.
I will pray for you because, as I do, you have other children that need you, and you need a break. Good luck, and keep us posted.
I would definetly tell all this to his doctor. I would ask for a more detailed evaluation. It may not be bipolar, schizephrenia, etc, but something is going on.
I would call his doctor ASAP and set up a evaluation/meeting to help your son. You can't keep sending him to his uncle. What does his father think? Any family history with ADHD, depression, etc?
Has anything happened to him that could make him angry inside?
BETHANN39389.8803587963
Gwen, I notice that you live in the UK, I am from the states. Doctors here are now realizing that children can be bipolar, it does not start at an older age, just like they can be depressed. I have a friend from the UK who tells me how hard it is just to get appointments, let alone meds., there. I feel so bad for these kids to have to suffer and possibley end up in some serious trouble, when they cannot control it. This stuff is all neurological, not something that they chose to do or feel.
Can you mention bipolar in children or find a doctor there? I know that kids take prozac, but there are also side effects, keep an eye out for them, I wonder if his behavior right now is a side effect - what do you think?
How is Josh doing since he went to his Uncle's, is he happier? Maybe there is something going on at school, or did something happen to him and this is his way of "acting out"?
My son is successful with concerta AND guanfacine - this helps for anxiety, over stimulation, and lots of other things. It is also called Tenex. Maybe google it and see if it might help Josh!!
Regards!!
Gwen,
Hi again, there is a thread on ADHD and Bipolar on the ADHD and CoExisting Conditions board. Maybe reading through the posts will help you and your son. Even posting a question for advice. I skimmed it and found that there are posters who have been diagnosed and they discuss the meds that are working for them. I think might be informative to you and your son.
Thanks,
Beth
Hi guys
Thank you for replying.
I must admit I was really hoping you were going to say I was worry
about nothing, but then I knew deep down that I wasn't, so thanks for
confirming that for me.
I will be calling his dr on Mon am, and having a very serious chat with
him about whats happening, Josh is ill, and normally when a child is
ill you take them to the dr's and they give them some antibiotics or
what ever, and they get better. This thing isn't going away, and
to my mind it is just as serious as an astmah attack, (which my 4yr old
is brewing for at the mo....in bed temp of nearly 39) infact probably
more so, as the consequence of not getting the right treatment could be
really serious for him.
I am starting to get really scared of what sort of life he is going to
have, but I suppose the thing I am most scared of is never finding out
whats wrong, and therefor getting the correct treatment. Although
the thought of my son being dx with something as serious as bipolar, or
schitzophrenia, chill me to the core, the though of never being able to
help him, scares me even more. I know I will be deverstated if he
is dx with something like that.
As for wether there have been any events in his life that could have
triggered this behaviour, with the exception of my ex-husband, who was
mentaly abusing me, (Josh was only 18 mths old when I kicked him out,
and had only lived with us for 6mths) then no, not as far as I know,
(unless you count moving house, and having a mentally handicapped
younger brother).
The only meds Josh has been on are ones I have already mentioned, as yet we have not tried anything else.
The chlonodine and blood preasure thing, I have been told about, thats
why we are having to increase the dose so slowly, but apparently it is
also use for ADHD, one of the last resort drugs mind you. Thats
why I said I feel like I'm running out of options.
Well Josh got on fine at his Uncles yesterday, and even managed to
tolerate his siblings when we went down for a visit, for a hour.
I'm hoping to slowly build up his tolerance levels, so that we go
before anything negative happens, and I'm really starting to miss him,
so thats got to be a good thing.
I was looking at his picture that I have on the wall, he was 18mths old
in it, and he looked so happy......I just want my little boy back, the
one that used to be so happy
sorry going now, can't see the keys any more through the tears!!