advice for behavior that is purposeful | ADHD Information
At least for my ds, what appears to be deliberate can be ADHD related. I think it has to do with not having full impulse control. I'll try to explain. Pre-meds, he probably knew that some behaviors weren't right, but he still couldn't control it well enough not to do it -- but he had enough control to wait until the teacher wasn't looking. When we were trying to figure out what was going on with my ds' problematic behaviors, the school psychologist did some observations. He concluded that my ds' actions were purposeful b/c he seemed to look around the room and see who was watching. He'd then do certain things only if the teacher wasn't watching. Due to this, the school psych. concluded my child does not have ADHD and was purposefully doing things. Fastforward a bit. I knew my child had ADHD, which was clearly confirmed by neuropsychological evaluation, and he's responded beautifully to medication. He no longer does those "purposeful" behaviors. I wish I could give that school psych. a piece of my mind whether it was truly intentional. Maybe ds was checking what was going on, but that's b/c he didn't have full impulse control. It's way too coincidental that this stopped happening once he was on meds.
I did ask him about why he was doing these things or waiting until the teacher isn't looking. My assumption from the conversation is he is called out a lot for not behaving according the school rules so he may feel like he will always get in trouble for doing anything. Also, when I discuss this with him he tells me he doesn't want to do what is asked of him sometimes. For example, the teacher asked him to pick up a book cover (that wasn't his) and he didn't want to. He gets a color change for that.I did speak with the teacher and she told me he waits until her back is turned and then he will start (for instance) talking to another boy even though he has been told not to a lot. He doesn't do this at home. He may not do something immediately but he usually eventually does - sometimes I have to ask again. I have noticed significant improvement on that at home but I guess it isn't good at school.
Apparently, he is very distractable and that causes all the problems. He tells me he doesn't want do the things that are asked of him sometimes. I tell him he has to follow all school rules all day, everyday.
He apparently was doing fine for awhile but I just found out that 3 new students started in his class 3 weeks ago and has caused some upheaval in the classroom (not just my kid). And guess what - that is when his behavior started getting worse at school.
Is re-direction or reminding equivalent to bad behavior? Also, is not following instructions the first time cause for color change? How many other 7 year old boys ADHD or not capable of staying on task? I really am asking because I am new to this.
The rules of the school is everyday behavior evaluation - I can't change it.
Anyway- I am biting the bullet and finally going to have him evaluated at the end of the month. He was diagnosed while in foster care and I just can't go on that evaluation anymore. I said I was going to wait until the end of the school year but he is been with us almost a year now and it might be time.
"He tells me he doesn't want do the things that are asked of him sometimes. "
Don't we all???
All children test the limit - especially bright boys. If the teacher doesn't have control of the class this can happen. Ask the teacher what is the consequence when he doesn't listen to her? My son is impulsive and he doesn't necessarily wait until the back is turned - I think thats why its called impulsive!
What other things are you seeing that makes you think ADHD? He may have just had experiences of little consequence for his actions in the past, so he thinks he doesn't have to follow rules.
I'm going to agree a little and play devils advocate a little, sorry dont take offense. My daughter needs constant redirecting, I mean constant! She's better on meds by a mile, but still............people sho are not experienced with ADHD wont GET IT as not poor behavior. I had school last year call and ask me to speak my daughter about crossing and uncrossing her legs constantly in class. Mind you, she has a full time aide who's main purpose is to keep ehr on task and redirect her.............and this was the SPED teacher (who had zero years SPED experience, obviously).....so need less to say this was coming from some one who should've "gotten it".
Now for the part that people might not like, no matter what the "cause" of these behaviors or whether ot not it "can be helped" we do need to help our children to learn to behave in the enviroment they are in. Whether it is school, the theater, church, a restaurant or mall. A lot of teachers do not really understand how to help them do this. We wont change the world in a day and we need to work with them to help them help our kids. Either way if a child is going to be in a school they absolutely have to follow the same rules every other kids does. Every day for the past 7 years I've gotten frustrated on how much it sucks (excuse my language, but it does) that this has to be so hard for my daughter, but it is. All I can do is help her to never give up and help make her stronger and give her the tools I an to make it easier for her.
Try not to worry a LOT about the other kids and what or how they do. some one told me once, if you think the teacher is only talking to you about your kid, you're wrong, they talk to all the parents. My 5 year old gets in trouble all the time for constantly making noises during meeting. She is fidgety and smart and probably bored, BUT, she still ahs to do Kindergarten and has to learn to be quiet during meeting.
All of this said newmom, please have your son evaluated, it's not helping you, or him, guessing. You will at least know your path and can start to make some decisions on how to proceed. Sometimes the school environment has to change, sometimes it's meds, sometimes it's fighting to the death for an IEP or 504.
Another poster mentioned somewhere that a great way to see what behaviors may be typical 7 year old behaviors is to read books about typical child behaviors and not atypical behaviors, makes solid snese.
Don't medicate because you feel you "should" or have to. Take your time, think aout it all. There are horror stories for sure, but there's also unmedicated horror stories. It's been said on here before an it is SO true. The success stories aren't on here seeking advice. There are so many. Many more success stories than non success stories. I consider my daughter a success sory. Even though we've had TONS fo hard times, she is doing really, really well this year. Emotionally, academically, socially. She's maturing and buildign confidence. I am very happy and proud. Our psych doesnt take insurance either. 0.00 an hour, but we do what we gotts do! If you do decide on meds, always rememebr it's not a permanent decision. If it doesnt work out, you STOP. Simple.........yeah right........but you get the point.Thanks all - It is so difficult to figure things out b/c of our situation. Most of you have had your children since day 1 and have seen them grow, mature and change, adjust, etc...I did have another long talk with his teacher and got some good news and some bad news - one he is much happier this year and has made and kept friends. Last year when we got him he had a really difficult time at the school and was aggressive and angry and most of the kids didn't like him.
He now learns that some of his behavior makes the other kids not like the way he acts - i.e. personal space issue where he used to stand really close to the other kids or put his hands in front of the faces.By their reactions and telling him how they feel (or the "I feel statement" rule they have in school) he realizes that what he does is wrong and made changes.
The bad news: He apparently needs a lot of re-direction - he just gets too distracted. However, he was doing a lot better this semester until 3 new kids came into his class and one of them is a mean boy - the teacher said he teases the other kids a lot and they have all told her. However, my son has not told me or his teacher this. He has kept it to himself until yesterday when he screamed at the kid b/c he was teasing him yet again.
Also, Diane - Yes, I do know that the teachers talk to the other students parents about their behavior. Some in his class has some real problems like the teasing kids and another kid who punched and kicked a student one day. My child just has the attention issue....that I am fearful to medicate b/c of the some of the horror stories I have read on here about figuring out which drugs help. I am afraid of rebounds, aggressive behavior or depressive issues.
We are seeing a doctor this month who specializes in children like our son - been adopted late and have seen and/or had some bad things happen to them at an early age. The last doctor was so horrible that I was nervous to find another one. But I asked his therapist and she highly recommend this other doctor ( who BTW doesn't take any insurance - oh well - my son is worth it!)
Will keep you all up to date.
Diane - I have been thinking about it since about last March when the first doctor wanted him to put on Concerta for the attention issue. But he had only been with us 6 weeks at that point and I thought that was a little too early to medicate an issue that might not be ADHD but a transition issue.
The kids have both settled in nicely except they are still having some abandonment issues but other than that it is good - but for the last 3 months in school it is about 3 days a week I am told he just can't focus for long periods of time or is easily distracted. From these boards it sounds like 3rd, 4th & 5th grades will be a struggle for a kid that can't stay focused.
I have done my best with alternative meds, behavior therapy and play therapy. His therapist still has concerns as well with how quickly his mind jumps from things.
I am beginning to believe medication now is the last option. I was going to wait until the end of the whole school year but fear that I won't really be able to see if meds work for that issue - camp isn't really all about focusing and sitting still.
My thought is though - I have read that ADHD symptoms need to be seen in different areas not just one like school. I don't notice his attention ability as too bad at home but could the stimuli at school be an issue? When he plays with other kids he is pretty good - they all seem to do one thing and with 15 minutes want to play something different. When he is drawing or coloring at home while he and his sister are in the playroom - he takes his time and really does a good job staying focused on that. But then again some days they go wild in there.
I am now second guessing myself. I think I might go insane...
Does your child have a 504 plan at school? This might elimanate some of the discrepancies. All ADHD kids are eligible for this under IDEA act. federal law. It allows for accomadations in the classroom and other things. I would google it and check it out.
We all second guess ourselves, it's ok. You're trying so hard. He is so lucky to have you! Absolutely the overstimualtion of school can make a difference. IMO,you absolutley should try meds while theya re in school. Unless your child's main symptom is hyperactivity the chang eisnt dramtic enough at home. We arent making them stay on task and focus on boring things like school does.. For me my daughter gets very silly off meds. Thats ok when they're 7, not ok at 13. She also can not complete ANY task. She's extremely disorganized and scattered. She could, maybe, manage a one step task and that is all. So we can notice a difference both at home and school, but we need less for home. If not for school I'd have kept her on the Desipramine which was wonderful, even mood, enough to keep her on task and focused for what she needed in the summer. We chose to give the stimulants another shot for school and she is doing WONDERFULLY so far. She's using Daytrana and it's not perfect, but we're doing ok.
So my advice is 2 things, be sure you're ready, but it'll take somewhat a leap of faith no matter when you decide to try meds. If you want to give a school year, go ahead and start meds over the summer if it still seems necessary. That way you can watch for side effects and things and when school starts next year you'll have plenty of time to tweak dosages and adjust if needed. You can always try stimualnts now and go off them for the summer fi you choose. A lot of people do this. we dont for a few reasons, but mainly becasue I hate the readjusting time, some kids dont have that. Plus my daughter does so much better socailly on her meds.
It's all going to work out, just keep doing what you're doing and keep loving him. You'll sort it out.
riochio it sounds like you are a giving open person at heart. It is HUGE of you to take in these girls and I admire your stregnth for doing so. Here I am whining about my brat of a son who won't take his meds. Last night I layed with him before bed an just enjoyed his delightful personality(he's a funnny one, 9, and forjust a few minutes the anxiety of it all let up. It was worth it.Thanks again - Riochio - I would have never thought of the oppositional defiant behavior but that makes perfect sense. LIGHT BULB MOMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!In addition to that I took the advice and told the teacher that I will not be looking at his daily behavior assessments each day but will at the end of the week. I think the daily assessments just causes too much stress and low self-esteem for him.
Also, every day I would tell my husband right when he got home from work about our son's color and most days if it was borderline or below my husband would be mad. I think this really affected our son. Also, I never gave my husband time to decompress after a long, stressful day at work. Let's hope the school week will be much calmer and on Friday's we will stay as calm as possible about any negative marks he may have received.
I am trying to be the best mother I can but it sucks when I realize I made a mistake and it hurt my son b/c of it.
Everyone - thanks for all your advice! I will look for a neuropsychiatrist.
Last year in 3rd grade we did daily assesments and it was a disaster just like you said. Weekly is much better. everyone does not get so caught up in it everyday. As we pick our son up from class some days we are able to get a verbal report of hte fly from the teach. this helpd soothe my mind cause usually it is "don't worry, acedemically he is doing fine" not too bad of a report. Good luck and I hope it gets better from here.Spamula - He was never truly diagnosed with ADHD b/c he was in foster care - who was going to take the time or money to that but his aggressive outbursts when he and his sister were living in a foster home together resulted in them be separated and that was when they started him on Tenex and Rimderal (anti- depressant).
He is very smart and does really well in school - He can concentrate enough to take tests - in fact he likes taking tests and gets mostly 90's or 100's. His one subject that is difficult is writing - they say he can't just sit there and think of something to write most times. However, he loves math and he reads great.
At home - homework is a breeze - most days. Once in a blue moon he is tired and does it slowly but I don't think that is a big thing. He even does homework in aftercare where there usualy are 90+ kids in a cafeteria and he can get some of the work done. I would think that was more stimuli than a classroom. BUt I have heard of the white noise theory...
So - back the ther first thing - we are going to get him evaluated finally and see what really may be the underlying issue here - ADHD, Adoption, age related, hearing, sight.....all of the above.
Good to hear it. A full eval is always good. My son cannot stand noise and test gifted on everything, It is his writing also, funy, well good luck and let us know what happens, yeah - I decided to have him tested for gifted again....His teacher was making me second guess myself but I had dinner with a friend of mine last night who is the 1st grade gifted teacher at his school and she gave me a little heads up about his teacher which didn't make me trust her comments about my son. She said she didn't see gifted qualities in him but what I describe to my friend she thinks he could be. A lot of gifted kids can't stay focused on when noise is around.
I am now starting to think the things that gets him noticed and in trouble by the teacher has nothing to do with his ability to learn. He has straight A's. My friend also told me no matter what some teachers and kids just don't mesh. Last year my son had 2 different teachers who had a lot nice stuff to say about my child even though he has some bad days. So perhaps my kid and this teacher aren't the perfect match.
My friend also told me that some teachers are just burned out. It is a hard job ( I know I couldn't do it) and they just can't take a child that needs extra help.
Anyway - I will have him tested for gifted and evaluated for his attention issue. My friend recommended a neurologist first not a psychiatrist. What do you all think?
Also, I am going to have his hearing and sight tested.
newmom39390.4568981482personally I'd go with neuropsychologist. They can test for all of it. A neurologist wont be able to give you this kind of information, neither will a psychiatrist. A psychiatrist (or neurologist, IMO psych) for med management though. I agree with Diane, a neurpsychologist if available is the most thorough way to go on all issues. A child Psychiartrist could probably take care of the meds. We tried everything and he is very borderline ADHD but has extreme anxiety issues. So we are going to try to medicate for that and see what happens. For some reason he has agreed to take those but not the ADHD meds(he is 9). I know the wanting to wait till school is out but IMO if in school the better to measure the action of the meds. Just my opinion. Good luck with your journey.The school behavior sounds to me like a combination of some
oppositional defiant behavior and trying to provide some extra
stimulation for his brain (which might relate to ADHD).
I find that trying very hard to catch kids doing the right thing is the best
for the first piece- not reinforcing negative behavior. And for the second
piece it might be a matter of getting him more challenged but may also
require some medication to provide that brain stimulation.
I adopted an 11 year old many years ago- the mother of the child with
ADHD I am raising now. Back then ADHD wasn't recognized and she had
so many other serious issues- terrible dyslexia (still only reads on a 2nd
grade level) and major emotional disturbance. So the ADHD was missed
and never treated- very unfortunately.
All the best to you. It is hard to deal with all the attachment issues along
with all the other stuff.
So "sneaky" is a subjective adjective applied by one teacher? Why do you think this description is valid? I would not address this unless I had proven to myself that it was accurate vs an adjective that someone else was tossing around. If I had acted on every description thrown out there by the school staff, I would have committed my son to a padded room by 1st grade.
Random is the nature of ADHD.
Get him to do what he doesn't want to do by getting him to want to do it. With rewards.
I agree with Diane V -- weekly is the best.
For rewards, have you let him pick the rewards -- write up his own list of things that he can earn?
"Sneaky" is just too subjective. Why don't you ask him why he does this. Maybe he's trying best to pay attention when she is looking at him and then his attention wavers when she is not. If she is staring at him, or standing right next to him, or talking to him, he's going to try his best to please her. Not so, if she's across the room helping another student. The problem is that she must have a fundamental assumption that he is capable of controlling all of his behaviors -- which leads to intentional -- which leads to sneaky. I doubt you can really connect the dots like that with ADHD in the picture. What are the variables? I bet you can flush this out via an in depth conversation with your son.
NoTellin39387.3436689815 [QUOTE=NoTellin]Get him to do what he doesn't want to do by getting him to want to do it. With rewards.
[/QUOTE]We do that - everyday.
Sneaky - the teacher has written it a couple of times...I think she is referring to that fact that he is looking at her and when she looks away he does something that breaks the rules...
I am beginning to believe these daily behavior assessments is wrong. Perhaps a monthly report would be better.
weekly is probably best for behavioral concerns. Daily you get way too caught up in it all, but monthly lets too much time go by where things can escalate. OK- I don't think this is ADHD related because it is so random. My ds is coming home often with his daily behavior reports as being bad. It isn't every day and on somethings he learns to not do it again - i.e. not focusing was a problem in the beginning of school or getting into people's personal space. We have discussed both with him and he hasn't had a problem since.
Now - he is being sneaky about things (this observation is new) like talking when he isn't supposed to, not following instructions the first time or not staying on task - he would rather be doing something else. If this was an every day occurrence I think I would assume it was ADHD related. But now I am getting reports like he is being sneaky and doing these things when the teacher isn't looking - but apparently is bad at it b/c he always gets caught.
I do believe maybe he is bored. He is very smart and catches on quick to things. He is reading at 4th or 5th grade level and math - NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER!!!! Could this just be boredom? Should I look into getting him tested for gifted? Just had a teacher today come up to me just to tell me how smart he is and how amazed he was.
He is in 2nd grade and I think he has a pretty strict teacher (which I think is good for him). But the behavior is so random. One week his behavior was perfect, the next mixed good days and bad, one week all bad but now it is back to random. I have looked to see if there might be other things causing this - nothing I can think of that is why I am posting here.
Also, he tells me most of the time he just doesn't want to do what he is told. Ok that is probably just the 7 year old talking.
How can I convince him to? Or is that the million dollar question?
BTW: I don't feed into the bad behavior with screaming or yelling or major punishment - like today he gets no TV or something small like that.
Advice?
newmom39386.5379513889Just looked up ODD and he has 9 out of 10 symptoms, big time!!!! WOW! I can't believe with all this time I had that I missed something like that. I had an underlying feeling that ADHD wasn't the cause or the only cause he may have for his behavior.
When we see the doctor I will mention the ADHD that was first mentioned when we got him and now the ODD which seems to be more of the issue now. Yes, I realize ODD and ADHD sometimes go hand in hand but it so nice to realize what may be the issue instead of thinking he isn't ADHD, etc.....but something just wasn't right here and I just was so dumbfounded to figure out the issue.
THIS MESSAGE BOARD ROCKS!!!!!!!!!
Yes, I will of course wait for the doctor to verify if this is the disorder he has or not....but what a relief!!!!!!
riochico I LOVE it! The one good thing a day also. They all should do that.That would be nice! I would ask from time to time if there was improvement or such and she would say so. But I am beginning to think she is exhausted by my son and a few others in her class that the more she has to write would just exhaust her more.
Anyway - I am trying the weekly route it was suggested - so far OK- my son does appear a little calmer today since he didn't have to tell us his color. I will see what he is like on Friday as well - maybe we won't look at it until Saturday once everyone has had a chance to relax.
I also realize that I need to spend more time with my kids - all in all - most of what kids really want is their parents attention. So I am conscientiously trying to spend as much time with them as possible - even if is spending time in the same room all doing different things.
I would ask the teacher to tell you at least one good thing your son did each
day too. That way you can tell your husband about it at dinner or some such
time in front of your son and you can start turning the tables around a bit.
I agree with you that this message board can feel like a life line. OK - it has been almost 2 weeks and we switched the daily assessments to looking at them weekly. Our son still has to write in the agenda everyday his color for that day but we aren't looking at it until Friday or Saturday. Last week he got 4 good colors and 1 OK. This week ( I peeked last night) were all good colors!!!!!!!!!!
To be honest with you - he has never really had a good full week assessments since he moved in with us. He would have some good days but mostly OK to bad ones. I don't want to jinx it but I think this worked.
How could anyone deal with the added stress of having daily behavior assessments?
Thought you would all like to know.
thats great. I was getting "overly worried" about ym 5 year olds color every day in Kindergarten. I've decided to only know if she tells me. Otherwise I am checking in every few weeks with her teacher. Mind you, we are not having issue with her so every few weeks is fine. She was having a minor issue with being quiet during meeting, I probably wouldnt have even known if I didnt ask the teacher. My point is, its better to see behavior patterns, rather than every minute thing.
I'm glad this is working for you, it will put it more in perspective.
[QUOTE=newmom]OK - it has been almost 2 weeks and we switched the daily assessments to looking at them weekly. Our son still has to write in the agenda everyday his color for that day but we aren't looking at it until Friday or Saturday. Last week he got 4 good colors and 1 OK. This week ( I peeked last night) were all good colors!!!!!!!!!!To be honest with you - he has never really had a good full week assessments since he moved in with us. He would have some good days but mostly OK to bad ones. I don't want to jinx it but I think this worked.
How could anyone deal with the added stress of having daily behavior assessments?
Thought you would all like to know.
[/QUOTE]
I may be off-base here but one of the struggles I've seen and been a party to is new adoptive/foster moms overcompensating and trying desperately hard to be good parents. They really do often care, and deeply to be good parents. Sometimes I wonder how much adoption agencies putting these folks through trial by fire to get the kid adds to the nervousness.
You have a long, long road ahead. The kid will screw up. You will screw up. The kid comes with baggage. You want to be a good parent.
Take your time. You're probably doing a whole lot better than you think
