I’m noticing a trend... | ADHD Information
In a lot of our posts we agree that our children 'can't help it', whatever 'it' may be. That they can't control their actions and even their choices (impulsiveness)...I admit that I say this statement as well but dh is starting to make me question it also.
What do you hold them responsible for? Not everything can be excused because they have adhd, right? They have to be productive people and will grow into adults, that we also want to be productive. "They can't help it" ... what does that mean? How do you know what to and what not to hold your children accountable for?
We have taught ds that telling lies is BAD BAD BAD. Explained it in several different ways and acted out things to help give 'umph' to our 'lecture'. But he still lies. So, I will look at dh and say "He's just impulsive, he doesn't understand" and dh looks at me like this___ . It's very hard for me to understand this. Do you have clarity on it?
Because they have more difficulty with things than thier peers have masterered, we need to guide and coach them more and for a period of time that is longer than others thier age. This does not mean that we do not hold them responsible, but that we are not overly harsh with the consequences for things that they cannot control. With the maturity issues (these kids being about 30% behind thier peers). ask yourself what would you do to coach and have for concequences for a child with that lower maturity. We also praise for doing the right thing (sometimes hard to catch) but it is really effective.
My 2cents.
I think they still need to be held accountable for bad behavior, even though they cannot control themselves due to ADHD. But once they recieve proper treatment, we should be expecting better behavior, especially during the part of their day when the meds are supposed to be working their best.I think saying "they can't help it" is for the parents. Knowing bad behavior is a result of ADHD helps us to be more understanding of our kids, not so severe with discipline, and gives them more time to work on their skills. But our kids should know what the standards are and should be expected to behave properly.
That makes sense to me...But if we give a 'slap on the hand' he tends to run it over like a mac truck. I don't know, I find it very complicated. I'm noticing more and more levels of complications right now, thank you all for bearing with me through this...
But because I am out to get answers it is calling me to really focus in on a lot, this was one of the newest things I'm seeing.
I agree with Dad in Akron. They cant help it is sort of to keep our sanity. They absolutley need to be held accoutnable. They, like Vickie says, just need more time to "get it". Our discipline needs to be different, stricter, quicker, shorter, more often.
I will say this, Dad in Akron, we have picked back up on the Marble System and I do think it is going to help out. Along with other methods we've gotten together for our mornings plus the marble method, we had a really great morning. It's just a learning process.
I do think you're right in what you say...
I guess my thought is that it's not that "they can't help it," but that they have a much harder time "helping it" than most children do and therefore require more patience, more understanding, more repetition, more guidance...As far as the lying is concerned, I don't know if you will find this helpful at all, but when my daughter lied a couple of times (it was about something small -- she said that she'd brushed her teeth, but then I noticed that her toothbrush was completely dry...), I used the logical consequence approach. I told her that if she lied I couldn't trust her, and that she wouldn't like her life very much if I didn't trust her because then I couldn't allow her to go to her friend's house, or play outside, or do anything where she wasn't directly supervised by me. It worked for her. She did not lie anymore.
Inspiredbymusic, we also have talked to our son about the trust issue. He lies anyway...I'm sure he'll grow out of it. He, at times, has a heart the size of Texas so I do believe when he 'matures' he will be able to understand it more fully. What you say is giving me clarity. Not that they can't help it, but that they struggle 'helping it'. I get that. DH says it's almost like he's mentally handicap, as the term they used in the less politically correct times 'special'. but then you talk to him and you can see he actually can hold a pretty mature conversation...
It's complex, adhd is. very.
My son tells me "I have to follow my own way" all the time. So annoying! I'll break him of it eventually.Corrina, there is a part of me that admires that. You know? To be a leader or your own teacher...However, there is a part of it that worries me. Because your son sounds like mine (when he will learn that phrase I'm sure he will use it
), but they have to often learn the harder way that way. And in a sense, even then, the lesson is learned much better than just taking the advice of others. It's all complex, I'm telling you. ADHD or not, the kids are responsible for their choices and behaviors. If my kids don't follow the rules around here, they know what the consequence will be. That said, I think if my kids didn't have adhd I probably wouldn't give them as much leeway on some of the smaller things, such as making an innappropriate joke or comment, verbally interrupting someone, not immediately following directions such as "sit still" or "be quiet"... I probably let these slide more often than I should- but it is kind of a 'pick your battles' scenarios here, and I don't want my kids to be in trouble 90% of their lives.
The things they know will produce a consequence (consequence varies based on offense): Back talk, name-calling, missing school assignments, lying, destroying something on purpose or from carelessnes (ie:nail polish on bedspread...), Report of behavior problem from school (case to case basis on that one), slipping/poor grades.
Just knowing that it is harder for these kids makes it easier for us to love and forgive them when they falter- but we would be negligent if we excused all their negative behaviors based on their DX.
JMHO
KidsInSpace, I get it. That makes sense, too. I guess I've just heard 'they can't help it' so much that I was just starting to say it to help me and dh deal. How unfair to our ds to expect so little of him,huh. Maybe I should look at it more like that. We do expect a lot out of them because we know with or without ADHD our boys have great personalities and really do set out with good intentions. We just want those intentions followed through with...and accomplished. So, 'he can't help it' was really starting to leave us feeling more desperate than anything. It leaves me with a feeling of hoplessness, but expectations with SOME leniency we can do. Rules with SOME bending, we can do. So can ds. That is doable.My son has this ongoing issue as well- lying about brushing teeth. I have found the marble system quite useful as an immediate consequence for lying. I take away 5 (the max)for it or not telling the whole truth. Of course, he has many opportunities to make that up, but the point is is that the consequence is real and in the moment. Something he can grasp more easily. My fantasy is that I have to implement this once and it will somehow "stick" or fix the issue, but that's not realistic. It will be an ongoing issue that will hopefully diminish with time. That's how I see life with my son. Nothing gets "fixed" , we just keep it in check.
Always make them responsible for their behavior. Doesn't do them any favors not to. The real world will. We must mirror reality until they get it.
I agree with Kidsinspace. There has to be certain things that are rules written in stone. It doesnt matter if they have ADHD. They have to grow up and be productive citiziens and members of society. Without rules and consquences, that wont happen.
The things they know will produce a consequence (consequence varies based on offense): Back talk, name-calling, missing school assignments, lying, destroying something on purpose or from carelessnes (ie:nail polish on bedspread...), Report of behavior problem from school (case to case basis on that one), slipping/poor grades.
Her list is very good and pretty much what mine is at home. I do let certain things slide...and pick my battles wisely. I also try to always remember that emotionally he is not 10 yet. Consistent rules to follow, immediate consequences,plenty of praise for good things,and repeating repeating repeating. Charts help alot and a strict schedule is very important. They do LEARN...they just learn differently and it takes more time and creativity.
I also have said* He cant help it* but I am trying to change that now to *he has a little problem with that but we are working on it or learning how to deal with it*.
Good luck!
When my child's meds have worn off, he sometimes back talks, uses inappropriate language, tries to trip his brother, etc. I know this is coming from impulsivity b/c he doesn't do this stuff when the stimulant is in his system. All of these things are inappropriate and get a consequence, but I find it easier to deal w/ it b/c I know it's due to ADHD. Usually we tell him that he's having trouble being around other people appropriately now, so it would be better if he spent some time to himself. He'll then go to his room and sort baseball cards, go downstairs and shoot some baskets, or whatever. After a little while, he's almost always OK again. Actually, when I invite him back after 10 minutes or so, he often doesn't want to come b/c he's happy doing what he's doing. Other times, he runs back to us b/c he really wanted to be with everyone all along. So, the action has a consequence, but it's not harsh or punitive. It's simply telling him that he's not behaving well around others now, so he needs to spend some time to himself and chill out/switch gears/settle down. Then, he's welcome to join us again when he's treating everyone properly.
ETA: I'm a big believer in natural consequences. For this situation, I apply it as: People can be around other people when they treat them well. If you're not treating others well, you cannot be around other people at this time. When your time away is up, I'll then ask you if you feel ready to treat others well and would like to join us.
I have set lengths of time away for various infractions. That way, I'm consistent, my kids know what to expect, and there's no arguing about the consequence (well, sometimes they try to argue but I ignore them and don't even respond). Bad language gets a warning if you've been acting good overall. 2nd infraction is going to the bathroom for a minute. Doing it again will send you to your room for 5 minutes. Hurting someone or some other action that can hurt others (like trying to trip his brother) will have you in your room for ten minutes or twenty minutes (depends how severe it is). Property damage or an action that had the potential to damage property is either a 5 or 10 minute punishment (depends how bad it was. It could be longer if it was really bad). Slamming a door or repeatedly flicking the light switch on and off is a 5-minute penalty (he flicks the light about 10 times in a row sometimes just to tick me off). You get the idea.
Mom2ADHDboy39486.4002893519[QUOTE=Mom2ADHDboy]When my child's meds have worn off, he sometimes back talks, uses inappropriate language, tries to trip his brother, etc. I know this is coming from impulsivity b/c he doesn't do this stuff when the stimulant is in his system. All of these things are inappropriate and get a consequence, but I find it easier to deal w/ it b/c I know it's due to ADHD. Usually we tell him that he's having trouble being around other people appropriately now, so it would be better if he spent some time to himself. He'll then go to his room and sort baseball cards, go downstairs and shoot some baskets, or whatever. After a little while, he's almost always OK again. Actually, when I invite him back after 10 minutes or so, he often doesn't want to come b/c he's happy doing what he's doing. Other times, he runs back to us b/c he really wanted to be with everyone all along. So, the action has a consequence, but it's not harsh or punitive. It's simply telling him that he's not behaving well around others now, so he needs to spend some time to himself and chill out/switch gears/settle down. Then, he's welcome to join us again when he's treating everyone properly. .
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We use this with both children. Anyone who cannot behave appopriately with otehrs needs to go be by themselves. Same thigs, inappopriate language (or topics of discussion), annoyin each other (like shutting off the tv while the other is watching), off to thier own room. We're lucky they each have their own room and it's not necessarily a "punishment", it's juts that no one else wants to hear "bathroom talk", so unitl you're ready to not talk that way you have to be by yourself to do it. Works like a charm!
I do like that idea and may try that!hausof4, I have seen a change in my daughter on this lately. She is FINALLY starting to see the results of her actions. Although everything is usually still my fault, but dont all teen girls blame Mom for everything! Anyway, she could neeer realte not doing homework or studying to bad grades. She couldnt get pst right now and see this. FINALLY last yar she had a BAD school year, followed up by a great one so far and she is seeing that big picture of wow, last year I didnt care or try and did terribly, this year trying so hard and it's paying off. I am hoping all this work is showing some results.[QUOTE=inspiredbymusic]
As far as the "bathroom talk" goes, my sister used to have a rule for her kids: If you want to talk bathroom talk, you have to go sit in the bathroom. Of course nobody wants to go sit by themselves and say that stuff, so it ends pretty fast!
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I LOVE this. I will now use this for my 5 year old. Although now that shes getting older, she likes to only use these things in public to see what I'll do. They are so much fun 
. Maybe I should still threaten to send her into the bathroom, she HATES public bathrooms................is that too mean?
I think I correct my Emily more than I do the other non Add
grands...when they come to visit...
She needs more redirection and if you don't nip it early she will start to get out of
control....So I stay on top of the situations....acting wildly or not listening...etc....
For me its easier to stop her actions as soon as I see them...and don't let them
get out of hand... Its funny when she is by herself you don't even know she is in
the house??? Her interactions need mointoring with other children...thou
Absolutely no bad talk is aloud....period...No excuses.......Told them I have
a bar of soap....haven't used it...but it works..
HI,
I just have to add a point that no one appears to have talked about on this topic. My son does not learn from natural or unnatural consequences. Consequences for the most part have little effect on his behavior because he only blames ME for the consequence. He has a real inability to see that his actions caused the problem. It's everyone elses fault not his. For example, he left his skateboard in the street and it appeared that someone stole it. Was he at fault?? NO, not according to him. Who was the dirty rotten scoudrel who stole it???? It was their fault not his. If his meds are not in him he has NO ability to take responsibily for his actions. Everyone else is to blame. And I repeat in a loud voice that he cannot or will not take responsiblity for ANY offense.
The only hope of an effective outcome is positive reenforce behavior and while tha sound like an easy solution, it really is difficult. It's hard to be a fortune teller and see the future and be prepared for all the difficulty that day will bring with my ds.
P.S. The skate board was not stolen. A neighbor had picked it up thinking it was his son's. The neighor returned it when his son told him it belonged to my son. I thought about keeping it from my son for a while but decided to "make his day" and explain what happened. Let's see if my son leaves it in the middle of the street again. He probably will if his meds are worn off. How sad.
As far as the "bathroom talk" goes, my sister used to have a rule for her kids: If you want to talk bathroom talk, you have to go sit in the bathroom.
Of course nobody wants to go sit by themselves and say that stuff, so it ends pretty fast!Willynilly
You make good observations. It is very hard to raise these kiddos. Mainly because the liability and consequences is hard to place and a lot gets misplaced by us and others.
I just hope that one day, people realize that ADD/ADHD is real. It's not a lack of love or punishment...Maybe once there is more awareness, people can understand ADD/ADHD and offer true help, research and suggestions. That's my hope. And then that the caretakers of these kiddos can have some real education and other sorts of opportunities that, at this time, they are more deprived of.
It would sure helpus and our ds if there was a more realistic concern. In the meantime, we'll all continue to do our best and seek out help and reach out for help...all for our children we love so dearly!
There is too much stigma also. I don't feel that I should discuss this with other parents at school and with most of the teachers either becasue, as much as I'd love to increase awareness and lobby for support, I don't want to stigmatize my son or compromise his medical privacy. His main teachers know.
I recently reminded his teacher (when she had pointedly told me that his playing with a bottle cap during a lesson was "his chocice") that while his behavior is his choice, his ADHD is not his choice and we have to be ever mindful to hold him to high expectations while remembering that he wants to be a good boy.
I'm gratelul everyday that he comes home to house filled with love for him!
And PS we have raised him just like we have raised his two older brothers who haven't been impulsive a day in their lucky lives! This is strictly biological. WN
I agree. You have to be so careful...the possiblity of jeopardizing them accidently is overwhelming!
Ilovemyboys,
I have been struggling with this issue of late also. I worry so much about his self esteem. He wants to please my husband and me more than anything and also his teachers too. He gets so sad when he gets in truoble at school. He tries. I really don't think he ever wants to be bad. He worries and worries when he's done something impulsive that disappoints him. The again, I don't want to make excuse for him and sell him short.
I think that the other responders are so right when they say that we can't just ignore the behavior, but we need to concentrate on teaching rather than on punsihing. These children have a medical condition that in my mind is no less biological than diabetes or cerebral palsy, and yet they get in trouble for their disabilities. It's so complicated and hard as a parent. The rest of the world will hold them accountable. It's just how life is.
In January, my son's behavior really regressed. It turns out he had outgrown his dose of concerta. We slightly increased his dose and saw an immediate return to the great behaivor and social interactions we had grown accustomed to. It reinforced to me that his impulivity is not in his control. I wish I knew the answer and look forward to reading this thread.
Willynilly
We also have the potty talk in the bathroom only rule. Now when my 5 yr old son is in the bathroom he will say "It's okay to say potty words in here" and proceeds to get it all out of his system.
The last time he said that I said" yeah its okay, but do you really need to say those words? Do you think I really want to hear them?"
Kids are funny....
I have a 12 yr old non adhd boy who likes to blame every one and every thing but himself when things go wrong or are lost.... Maybe its just a kid thing. He has lost umteen hoodies and jackets this year. When he lost the last one I told him this was getting too expensive so he would have to use his allowance to buy another one or we could go to the thrift store. Needless to say, he has not lost this last one yet.....
He left his skateboard down the street and it was stolen and for the first time I heard him admit (to a friend) that it was his own fault. Maybe he is growing up a little.....
OK guys I used this! My 5 year old couldnt believe I actually had her go in there. It was hysterical! Of course, now she says ok if you use any bathroom talk, you're going in there too..................That's too funny!![QUOTE=Diane V]OK guys I used this! My 5 year old couldnt believe I actually had her go in there . It was hysterical! Of course, now she says ok if you use any bathroom talk, you're going in there too..................[/QUOTE]
That's only fair! I'll confess that I have sat on the stairs a few times in a time-out b/c I violated house rules (language while watching sports, using a bad word when I lost my patience with the kids, slamming a door when I was annoyed).
[QUOTE=hausof4]I just have to add a point that no one appears to have talked about on this topic. My son does not learn from natural or unnatural consequences. Consequences for the most part have little effect on his behavior because he only blames ME for the consequence. He has a real inability to see that his actions caused the problem. It's everyone elses fault not his. For example, he left his skateboard in the street and it appeared that someone stole it. Was he at fault?? NO, not according to him. Who was the dirty rotten scoudrel who stole it???? It was their fault not his. If his meds are not in him he has NO ability to take responsibily for his actions. Everyone else is to blame. And I repeat in a loud voice that he cannot or will not take responsiblity for ANY offense.The only hope of an effective outcome is positive reenforce behavior and while tha sound like an easy solution, it really is difficult. It's hard to be a fortune teller and see the future and be prepared for all the difficulty that day will bring with my ds.
P.S. The skate board was not stolen. A neighbor had picked it up thinking it was his son's. The neighor returned it when his son told him it belonged to my son. I thought about keeping it from my son for a while but decided to "make his day" and explain what happened. Let's see if my son leaves it in the middle of the street again. He probably will if his meds are worn off. How sad.
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Is my ds your child's twin? 
My child also takes no responsibility for anything and blames others all the time. This is true when his meds are in his system or they're worn off. When the stimulant's worn off, my child also doesn't learn from prior consequences, but learning isn't my goal. My goal is at that very moment to have people remain in the same room together only if they're treating each other, my house, and our things appropriately.
So, the rule of our family is that you need to treat others decently or you can't be around others. Decently means decent language and noises, treating property appropriately, and touching others appropriately both directly or indirectly (my child once tried to get out of a consequence b/c he was holding an object which had hit his brother, so he didn't hit him). An adult is the only one who determines if your behavior is acceptable to be around others, and arguing about it will not be listened to. So, there's no discussion, no negotiation. If they try to argue, I just give the evil eye or point to the staircase. If they refuse to go, I remind them that they can go their rooms right now for 5 minutes or they can delay getting there and increase how long they spend in their room. I then look at the clock, announce the time, and tell them that they'll spend an extra two minutes in their room for each extra minute it takes them to get there (I stop timing when they're on their way at a reasonable pace).
[QUOTE=Diane V][QUOTE=inspiredbymusic]
As far as the "bathroom talk" goes, my sister used to have a rule for her kids: If you want to talk bathroom talk, you have to go sit in the bathroom. Of course nobody wants to go sit by themselves and say that stuff, so it ends pretty fast!
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I LOVE this. I will now use this for my 5 year old. Although now that shes getting older, she likes to only use these things in public to see what I'll do. They are so much fun . Maybe I should still threaten to send her into the bathroom, she HATES public bathrooms................is that too mean?
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I learned this from one of my children's preschool teachers many years ago. It works well for us, too! It also applies to noises that are most appropriate in the bathroom. Ah, the joys of having an 8 year old boy!