Hanging On By My Fingernails | ADHD Information

So what's going on now? Are you stuck in a rut and she just continues to
behave in a way that's driving you batty?

If you feel like it's too much to change, remember, you don't need to
change it all at once, and coming here is a good start.

One other thing - have you talked to her about what's going on with her?
It's a personal thing, but my son really came around and tried to work on
behaving better when he learned that he had ADHD and what it was
about. Knowing that it wasn't all his fault, but that he could try harder
and make better choices, really gave him the authority to ignore the
boxes people were trying to stuff him into and carve a new more
acceptable way for himself. My daughter has rages (could be bipolar) but then is very sorry for what she's done, which is quite different from your daughter.  My daughter may have a mood disorder (ex:  bipolar, severe mood dysregulation, agitated depression).  Mood disorders may be difficult to diagnose in a child.
 
Many kids need to try many meds, or combo of meds, before parents find something that works.  Does prozac need a period of time before you see results?  If prozac is not working, then I would talk with the doc about trying others until you see improvement.  No family should have to live this way.  Good luck.
mamamia40427.1966435185My son had rages after which he was horrified by what he had done and
said, and that was part of the the ADHD. His school thought it was ODD,
but his doctor insisted it wasn't, and his doctor was right. When we got his
meds straightened out the rages basically stopped. But we still had to (and
continue to) work on helping him figure out and make better choices.My heart went out to you when I read your story. You may be interested
in The Nurtured Heart Approach. It was started by a mental health
counselor who has ADHD himself. When he grew up, he became a
counselor of adults, left the profession, and then came back as a child's
counselor. He started teaching parents what he thought would have
worked on him with amazing success. Now he teaches it to professionals.

If you buy one of his books on energyparenting.com, you have free access
to his web site, which is stock full of helpful information, plus you can
probably find a therapist who specializes in the approach near you
through that website.

Everything you said, he writes about, especially the child's need for
attention, negative or otherwise. One child was thought to be incorrigible
and the psychiatrist told his parents he needed to be institutionalized for
the rest of his life. (He was only 11 at the time). The father learned the
Nurtured Heart Approach and the change in that child was absolutely
amazing.

I hope this helps.

D-Faye, Biggest hugs to you.  I have a (almost) 9 yr old son who is ADHD and I beleive also ODD (oppoditional definace disorder).  My son sounds just like your daughter but not to that extreme and nothing involving animals. I also have another child who is close in age to my son and my son lashe's out on my other child. My son has a tendency to deny alot of things or say it was an accident or somehow justify why it happened. My son is vindictive and big at "payback" if someone does something to him. My son threatens and any discipline tactics we use/say, our son say's them straight back to us and our other child. It's almost like our son thinks he is on the same authority level us us parents. The hair pulling could be similar to a "tic" which my son does suffer from. My son say's some pretty horrible things to us (his parents). My son was a handful from a young age and whilst other mums were able to do hobbies, gym, work from home etc........I was never able to do anything (and back then didn't know why) and I barely got anything done around the house either. My son was only diag ADHD at 8 yrs old..........prior to that, me and hubby blamed each other for our sons behaviour. He said I was too lenient and I said he was to strict. It didn't matter what tactics we used on our son, they wern't working and were never going to work anyway. I read every book I could get, parenting courses and counsellors/Physcs every year for past 4 years. Me and my husband barely talk anymore (we are mainly together for the kids sake). When the kids go to bed, we are so exhausted from our son, we don't even have the energy left to look at each other let alone talk to each other. We had our kids later as well (about 2 yrs later than you). My son has been on meds since for past 8 months but Im seeing the therapist this week and hopefully, we can try new meds as my sons behaviour is actually worsening as he get's older.

Have you thought about try medication for your daughter for the ADHD? There's books out there on Opposiitonal Definace behaviours. Apparantly if it is adhd and odd, it is harder to treat as each will interfere with the other. You have to treat the adhd first and then work on the odd.

IWe also pick our battles with our son (that is not lenient or soft parenting) but it is a given for ODD children otherwise you would be constantly arguing and fighting. My son refuses to dress warmly in the cold winter (he still likes shorts and wont wear a jacket)..........after all the arguing, fighting etc.........I now just let him go to school as he wants (guess what, he never got a cold all this winter..........were in Australia but my daughter who rugs up did catch a cold!). Also, with my son wearing summer clothing during winter, I have since noticed so do alot of the other kids.

I have this week done up a "chore chart" where certain daily chores need to be done and pocket money given at the end of week when all chores done. I deduct (maybe 20c) for each chore not done.  I'm also doing a reward chart for all the behaviours I want............doin g homework, going to bed nicely, staying in own bed, manners, treating each other nicely etc.........and they receive a marble or token and when they get so many, they can trade for a reward (ie: 30 mins with mum or dad doing what child wants, trip for icecream, staying up 30 mins extra at night, choice of movie etc...). You will see a post on theis board for the marble system which is suppose to be good for adhd kids.  I am also going to have on display a list of consequences/punishments for certain behaviours so children are aware what will happen if they do whatever. Punishments could be, time out, going to bed earlier than normal, doing extra chores etc.........

You are so right with what you posted about other parents moving forward with their childrens live's and were still stuck in the struggle of trying to curb their behaviours.  Me and my husband are both suffering from depression ...........brought on from having our children (that sounds terrible to say, but its the truth). Unfortunately, neither me nor my husband take any time for ourselves and take day by day. It was Fathers Day here in Aust today and my son had 3 incidents today upsetting me and my husband.

There are children at my childrens school that are from large families and it is known that some of these children are left ot fend for themselves and wander the streets alone from a young age etc.........but they are better behaved than my son who has had his parents always there for him. My childen eat and dress well, have all school stuff as needed, I take to and from school, help at the school ..............I'm sorry to ramble on. Please know you are not alone.........there are other children the same as your daughter. They just need to be handled a little differently and its just trying to find the "right" way.........they are not your regualr kids.

Again, sorry to ramble on about my son but it's just so you now there is another out there with very similar behaviours.

Forgot to add, given any chance and in the midst of a rage (which my son occasionaly has) he hit's us.......his parents!

I wish you all the best and fingers crossed, things improve for you and your family. Please vent here all you want.

I think you need more professional help for your daughter.  She is showing signs of a lot of potential issues even from my ignorant eye.  The fact that she harms and actually killed an animal, the self harming behavior, sensory seeking behavior etc.  seems to lend themselves to a lot of potential issues.  In a lot of ways she almost sounds like RAD, which happens less often in biological children, but can occur.  At her age, the she is too young to diagnose response is no longer viable from your doctors.

I don't know how you are handling so much by yourself.  Give yourself a little break as these issues are a lot.

 

Welcome to the board; it's a good place to be when you start to feel beaten down by all of this.

For discipline, you might want to read 1-2-3 Magic. I read it years back, and still apply the ideas because nothing else works.

I have have also gotten a neuropsyche eval that came with lots of testing and thick report, as well as a diagnosis from a child psychiatrist. I would consider the former to be more comprehensive and scientific. The robustness of the evaluations were not even in the same ballpark.

Have you seen any improvement with the Prozac? At that age I think ADHD symptoms can mimic a "mood disorder." Have you thought about getting a psychiatrist that will treat ADHD?Thank you so much, everyone, for your kind words, advice, insight and encouragement.  As the saying goes, "I didn't sign up for this."  I'm sure none of us did.  Today was another tough day.  God grant me patience and understanding...

-- DFG
Hello, everyone ... I came here hoping to find some help, encouragement, or both, with regard to our 10-year-old daughter.

Where to begin?  My husband and I had our first, and only child "later" in life -- he was 38, and I was 37.  We both had great careers -- he is a software engineer, and I was a multi-published novelist.  I have always been a creative sort, and figured that I could keep writing after our daughter was born ... the perfect "stay at home job."

I was considered to be at-risk for post-partum depression, due to the fact that I wasn't terribly sure about how motherhood would impact my life, and because I was afraid that having a baby would pretty much destroy my career.  But everyone around me reassured me ... it would be fine ... all new parents felt that way ... I'd get plenty of help ... etc.  Nevertheless, I was put on Prozac to help counter the PPD when and if it occurred, in my last trimester.

When our daughter was born, all was fine, though it quickly became apparent that she was a "screamer."  She was loud, colicky, and extremely intense.  My sister once tried to babysit her for the day and ended up having to bring her to my mother's house and leave her there with my mother, as she couldn't handle the nonstop screaming.  My husband is noise sensitive and ended up needing to go to therapy to deal with the noise.  I remember going out to an Indian restaurant one day with a dear friend of mine, with an infant of the same age...  both started crying about something, and while she was embarassed at her baby's "loud" cries -- hers sounded like a kitten mewing next to my high-powered, bionic-lunged screamer.

When our daughter was eleven months old, my father, to whom I was very close, died unexpectedly following a short illness.  In many ways, I had had this baby for my dad, who had always, secretly wanted a grandchild.  It wasn't the only reason I wanted a baby, but it was a major one.  Yes, I know it was wrong, but there are lots of reasons people have babies, and not all of them are the "right" reasons.  In any case, following my dad's death, I went into quite a serious depression -- could no longer write, just wanted to be alone, just wanted to do things, creatively, that brought me solace.  I went through the motions of motherhood with my daughter, and she never lacked for anything, but a big part of me was missing.  Shortly after my father died, we ended up selling our beloved dream house in a seaside city and moving into my childhood home in order to keep it in the family; while we were having the fire alarm inspection done on the house we were (sadly) leaving, 9/11 happened.  I grieved the loss of that house in ways that were almost palpable.  But, I couldn't let the childhood home pass out of the family ... I had many many memories there, plus, it had a lot of land, a barn, and was on a quiet dead-end street ... perfect for raising our family.

By the time she was a toddler, we knew we were going to have a tough time with our daughter.  She had already developed into a "button pusher" and if someone told her not to do something, she would push and push against the boundaries.  One time, she was at my mother's house and wanted to touch something; my mother said no, so our daughter looked straight at my mother, right in the eye, and touched the thing with her shoulder, instead.  She was defiant then ... and it was just a taste of what was to come.

Along about this time, our daughter also figured out that negative attention was better than "no" attention (and she got plenty of attention -- trust me), and began doing things that really pushed our buttons.  We are an "animal family," with dogs, an elderly cat, horses, and chickens.  Our daughter learned that if she was mildly abusive to one of the dogs, or the cat, she would get punished.  This was never a deterrant; in fact, it seemed to work the other way.

We went to parenting classes.  We put her in part-time daycare several days a week so that she could learn social rules/play with other children, since she was an "only."  By the time she was ready to graduate out of the daycare center and go into first grade, she was already getting into trouble for little things. 

First grade started out okay, but there were about 20-25 kids in the class, and our daughter immediately gravitated toward the "pretty and popular" girls.  She was instantly and clearly rejected by them, and so began to emulate the class clowns and troublemakers in the class, copying their bad behaviors.  She started bringing home things from school that she said the other kids had given her.  We had no reason to suspect this wasn't the case.  Then one day, I received a call from the vice principal; our daughter had been caught riffling through another kid's backpack and had been sent to the Office.  Turns out all the little things she had been bringing home, had been stolen from the other kids -- mostly, the kids who had rejected her, and to whom she somehow wanted to retaliate.

All during this time, our daughter was seeing a therapist, doing play-therapy.  She suggested the possibility that our daughter might have ADHD and given the high numbers in the class, we thought she'd do better in a smaller, more structured environment.  So, we pulled her out of the public school and put her into a small parochial school where the kids where uniforms, are taught Latin and handwriting, good manners, and get a Christian and classic education.  The class size was half of what it had been in the public school, the distractions were far, far less, and our daughter began to thrive, though we still certainly had our share of "problems."

Things started to deteriorate in 2nd grade; there was a teacher overhaul, and the new teacher couldn't control our daughter, and sent her to the office pretty much every single day.  I honestly think our daughter enjoyed the attention, and the distraction she created.  Along about this time, we got our first flock of bantam chickens, to which our daughter became quickly and immediately attached.  A month or two later, as we were putting up the Christmas tree, she came in, screaming, that "Prince is dead!"  Prince was her bantam rooster.  Many months later, she told us he had scratched her, and she got mad, put a board over him, and stood on it.  I was absolutely devastated to hear this.

Things worsened, behavior-wise.  We read all the right parenting books, continued therapy for our daughter, and I continued it for myself, as I had "lost" my writing and my concentration skills, and continued to suffer clinical depression, which had never really gone away after my father died, we lost our house, and my old dog died, all of which happened within several months of each other.  But, depression runs in my family -- I was likely destined to have it.  Meanwhile, our daughter became more and more demanding.  She did not have the ability to play well, alone.  She always needed someone to "entertain" her or another child to hang out with.  She was not the kind of kid who would sit quietly with a coloring book or sketch pad; she was never into "team sports" and didn't like to read.  She expected to be "fed" entertainment, and I was usually the one she gravitated toward ... which was difficult for me, as I've never been the "sit on the ground and play blocks" sort.

By the time she was 8, we were advised to have our daughter psychologically evaluated by a neuropsychologist.  This woman spent two days evaluating our daughter, running her through a battery of tests, making observations, etc., and giving us a hefty written report.  She concluded that our daughter "clearly has ADHD" as well as Oppositional Defiant Disorder, was extremely bright, scored high on the intelligence and verbal tests, but was easily distracted by things like the sound of her computer humming, noises outside, etc.  She also noted that our daughter went for the "shock value" and felt that we would all benefit with parenting classes and behavior modification, i.e., set-ups in school that were designed to get our daughter to learn, and crave, positive attention instead of negative, activities to boost her self-esteem, etc.  She felt that if we were stricter as parents, our daughter's behavior would improve.

I tend to be a rather laid back parent, and my husband is much stricter, but he tends to follow my lead.  I had learned, long ago, to "pick my battles" with this child, because I had also learned, long ago, that she loves nothing more than a good fight with me.  I didn't have the energy to be fighting with her constantly, and I didn't think that was good for her self esteem, either.  I never really saw myself as a permissive parent, but not terribly strict, either -- as I was now being called to be (or so I interpreted it).

Our daughter's grades improved by 4th grade, when she got a teacher who was "warm and fuzzy" ... by this time, her class size had shrunk to only five kids, all of whom were boys except our daughter.  The fact that she was the only girl made her feel she had a special relationship with the other girl in the class -- the teacher -- and she gave her her all, i.e., her good behavior, for most of the 4th grade year in an attempt to please her.  But other things continued to be noted... our daughter preferred to play with boys instead of girls, loved using bathroom works to shock and repel others, enjoyed using bad behavior to get attention.  She gravitated toward the boy in her class who also had behavior issues, and the two of them had to be separated during class because they would ruin it for everyone.  They were bad medicine for each other.

As 4th grade progressed, our daughter began to get bored, and by the end of the year, she was slacking on her homework, lying about having done it, "misplacing" it, neglecting her personal hygiene (always a fighting point, anyhow), lying about brushing her teeth, etc.  We had always noted that her behavior always got bad when she was either lonely, bored, or both.  By the end of 4th grade, when her teacher, whom she liked, was far along in her pregnancy and starting to get preoccuopied and grouchy with her own advanced condition, she was getting hard to control.

That was last year.  Here we are, going into 5th grade starting this week.  Over the past year, we've brought our daughter to a pediatric psychiatrist who has diagnosed her with a "mood disorder" (he says she's too young to diagnose it further than that) and has her on 5ml of Prozac/day.  I have asked him why he isn't treating the ADD/ADHD and he's adamant that she has a mood disorder.  We have also started family and behavioral therapy/parenting help with a psychologist who specialized in kids with ADD/ODD and I hope to God she can help us, because I'm at the end of our rope.

I had a bit of an epiphany these past few days, which has led me to finally coming here and posting in the hopes of help, from someone, anyone...  I'm no soothsayer, but I don't like what I'm seeing down the road.  Our daughter has very little respect for elders (I found out two days ago that she was smart-mouthed with the neighbor across the street, which appalled me -- we have always focused on manners and kindness), and has pretty much alienated most of the friends she has ever managed to make; one of them is the girl across the street.  They'd been friends for the past eight years, but our daughter is so bossy, possessive, adamant, demanding, and obsessive that she has driven her longtime friend away -- to the point this friend is now actually quite mean to her.  The more rejection our daughter receives, the worse her behavior becomes.  This past month alone, she has broken the visor on our SUV ("it was an accident!") when I ran into the store for a moment ... she broke a horse model of mine ("it was an accident!") and I fear she also was the one responsible for my real horse's injuring his stifle on the gate and requiring several hundred dollars' worth of veterinary attention; as it is, he may never be sound enough to ride again.

I cannot trust her unsupervised around our dogs or cat.  She tolerates one dog, likes another, and hates the youngest one, a demanding, hyperactive puppy.  I have seen her "tweak" them -- not be outright abusive, but do little things like shove at them with her knee when she thinks I'm not looking, giving the two older dogs a treat but not the puppy, etc.  She has been rough with the cat, rough with her chickens, and rough on me.  On the flip side, she can be enormously empathic and loving, but when she is sullen and angry -- which is most of the time -- she is a menace.

Lately, she has started getting into my makeup and putting on eye shadow and mascara.  I have asked her not to go into my things, but she persists, yelling, "it's only light!"  I made her strip it all off yesterday and she got venemous and went in, took off the blue eye shadow she'd put on, and emerged wearing light bronze.  Everything I ask her to do, or don't ask her to do, is a fight.  I ask her to feed the dogs, or feed the horses, or help with supper, or put her clothes away, or to clean up the dirt she just tracked in, laughingly, all over the clean floor, and I get an argument.  She delights in wrecking things -- a clean floor, a just-vacuumed room, the back seat of the car (now scribbled all over with crayon), you name it.  She is perpetually in motion -- this is a kid that doesn't know the meaning of "rest" and "down time," and she can be gone at a playdate for four or five hours, come home and immediately be phoning someone else up in an attempt to play some more.  If nobody is available, she begins to "rove" ... aimlessly wandering around, looking for something to do that usually involves bad behavior, getting into mischief, tweaking the animals, anything.  She thinks it's a big joke when she tracks muck in all over a clean floor and I get upset.  She smirks when I "lose it" and come down hard on her.  She is not happy unless she has created a great big storm of constantly-moving chaos, and is not happy unless she's got it spinning around and around her.

I have finally realized just how very hopeless and depressed I have become...  as I had long ago feared, I have, indeed, lost my writing and haven't tried to write a book since 2001, when this little bundle of joy was a year old.  She has me so frazzled, fractured, and ready to jump that I have no power of concentration or focus left, anyhow.  For the past few years I've made a modest part time income with art, but I can't do that when our daughter is home because if she sees me involved in it, she'll interrupt me, or find something (i.e., bothering the animals) to get my attention off what I'm doing and onto her.  She has almost zero impulse control, says what she thinks, and demonstrates very little remorse or regret for her wrongdoings or how they affect others.  She continues to adore "bathroom words" and is now starting to try for more shock value by using the milder swears.  She picks her nose and eats it and laughs when I come down on her for it.  She has begun exhibiting addictive tendencies (i.e., stealing chocolate, patries, etc., and leaving the wrappers hidden where she thinks I'll never find them), and almost refuses to eat anything except sugar, starch, and a few token vegetables and proteins.  Over the summer, she has begun pulling out strands of her hair and chewing on the roots.  Lately, I've noticed that she is lying more and more -- or at least, I suspect she is.

She is ten years old, and I'm in tears, thinking what she's going to be like at thirteen ... fourteen ... sixteen ... eighteen.  All I can see is a drug addict, a prostitute, a teenage tearaway.  I don't know what else we can do to redirect this train-wreck, and I don't feel as though years of therapy have helped any, nor is the Prozac.  Even more upsetting is the fact that this child of mine has the intelligence to really be something in life -- her dad has his PhD in physics, and our daughter is a natural scientist (indeed, it's her favorite subject in school), but she hates school and she hates doing her homework and she hates doing what she's told.  She is her own worst enemy.  She is driving away her friends, alienating even the adults around her, and I honestly feel like I can't take anymore.

If any of you have any ideas, advice, or even just a hug or two ... I'm all ears.  I feel like I'm hanging on by my fingernails at this point ... I thought parenthood was supposed to be about raising a child to be self-sufficient, a valuable member of society ... but we're still stuck on behavioral stuff that should have been resolved long, long ago -- but  somehow, wasn't.  I'm so tired of fighting with this child, who sees black when something is white, who is like a mini dictator, who LIVES to fight and create chaos.  I just don't have anything left inside of me.

Thank you for listening ...

DFG
First of all, feel free to vent here. Sounds like you can use someone to
listen to you!

Secondly - definitely look into therapy for yourself - it's so hard to do,
but you've got to take care of yourself in order to take care of her.

Third - have you read the book The Explosive Child? It sounds like it
might be just what you need. It outlines a way of teaching a child to not
just jump toward their impulses but to think about the consequences and
others' feelings. It could really work out great for you.

Keep reading. Do as much research as you can. Try everything, keep
doing what works, and toss out what doesn't. Eventually you will find the
path that works for your family.

Best of luck to you! Daer Corrina,

Thank you for your kind words; they are much appreciated.  Actually, I've been in therapy for many years, myself, in an attempt to treat my depression (which, despite meds, appears to be stubbornly hanging on), and my husband and I are each about half-way through The Explosive Child.  I'm hoping the second half of the book will give us something to really chew on ... our daughter isn't always explosive, but she is vindictive, spiteful, mean-spirited, demanding, and often very selfish... and she loves to fight.  I haven't seen much yet, in the book, to address those traits, but we're picking up some good tips to help with communication.

Again, thank you for your kind words...  they mean more to me than you can know.

-- DFG

[QUOTE=Corrina]First of all, feel free to vent here. Sounds like you can use someone to
listen to you!

Secondly - definitely look into therapy for yourself - it's so hard to do,
but you've got to take care of yourself in order to take care of her.

Third - have you read the book The Explosive Child? It sounds like it
might be just what you need. It outlines a way of teaching a child to not
just jump toward their impulses but to think about the consequences and
others' feelings. It could really work out great for you.

Keep reading. Do as much research as you can. Try everything, keep
doing what works, and toss out what doesn't. Eventually you will find the
path that works for your family.

Best of luck to you![/QUOTE]I found that I can use the steps described in that book to address just
about everything for my son; getting him to do homework, quicker
decision making about everything, how he wants to treat his friends,
sorting out his priorities, etc. He used to have explosive rages, but
they've just about gone away. Once in a blue moon if he's overtired -
that's it. It took a few months, but he really learned not to freak out, and
I learned to not assume he was just being a jerk to be a jerk. I know, it's
awful to think about your own child that way, but seriously, that's what it
felt like.

When we started with the 3 steps, my son didn't trust the process. He
totally expected I would fight with him or come down on him like a ton of
bricks and demand he do what I wanted. You have no idea how hard it is
to give up control and let your kid decide what's going to happen. Well, if
you try it you will soon. It's so worth it, though.

I know it feels like you have to give up on her to regain your sanity. Been
there - done that! But really, if you find out why she's doing these things
and work with her, and she learns to trust you, if could be a really easy
turn around. It just takes practice. You just have to take a deep breath
and focus on finding out why. In the book the description of the little girl
who didn't want to go to the movies just killed me - that's when it clicked
for me that maybe there was something going on with my son that I
didn't understand, so I just assumed the worst. And the story about the
girl freaking out over breakfast - same thing, that a child would panic
because they got caught up in their impulses and expectations rather
than reality - no wonder they fly off the handle.

It sounds like you're stuck in a "her vs us" mentality. Again, been there!
If you can recognize that, just be aware of it, especially if you don't want
it to be that way, that's a good place to start.

Get radical. Try something different. What you've been doing isn't
working, and despite cultural norms you don't "have to" do anything.
Figure out what's really important to you and your family. Tackle one
thing at a time - don't expect to snap your fingers and have a different
kid. What is the one thing that gets your goat worst right now?   Try the
marble technique (like the house points in Harry Potter) to get her to
change that one thing. Have her decide on the reward and what the
requirements for the meeting the goal are - then she'll be more invested
in the process. Remind her every hour on the hour that she's working
toward her reward and you'll help her get it any way you can.

If you try something new - either trying to get through to your daughter
using the techniques in The Explosive Child or by setting up a goal for
her - it will make you feel better because you'll be doing something.

Keep posting. Let us know how it's going. It will get easier. One day
soon you'll look back thinking, 'Remember how awful last summer was?
So glad it's nothing like that anymore.'