Different Perspectives on AD(H)D | ADHD Information
I've opened up a new topic in the AD(H)D Adult forum to invite people to start to talk more specifically about views on AD(H)D origins and pathology and through this...a direction to go in. I just feel the need to try to understand to effectively assist myself.
I think I'm on the right path with my own views. Others have encouraged me to share it here and I have many more similarly related topics to share but more importantly so do others. Different Perspectives . Its how I got my own view to develop when I found too many different answers to the same simple question...How does it work?
All the profered explanations seemed so varied, unrelateable and on thier own not fully a good answer. But I found a common thread. And as I followed that thread I was amased at what I found and finally could prove how ADD works, where it lives and how to go about dealing with it. Right now ADD can only be explained by a list of criterea. Why we do those things though to begin with?......thats the question and the answers always follow.
But I would like more people than just me to help further shape my explanation and help create even more solutions for it or disprove it in a rational honest way.
If you have other different ideas ,post away! Just make sure to back it up some how with as many supporting facts or very plausible ideas as you can. Keep it real and we'll all get some benifit out of this.
Add to these views or constructively critisize them. But always justify your view in as much fact as you can. What I felt was a small truth a few years ago compared with what it has grown to today, only became possible by seeking out supporting the facts. If it is not an idea thats supportable by fact...you know it quickly and it goes away. OR IT GROWS AND GIVES UNDERSTANDING.
Knowledge is only powerful when used.
Karen N38417.7494097222
My view...I would like this forum to be dedicated to this topic from AD(H)Der”s themselves who have no doubt given this topic a great deal of thought. I have enclosed my own thoughts and backed it up in a way that I feel answers alot of questions. I also included some things you can begin to do to help your selves out and yes its similar to what others may call " coaching " techniques but you will not be mimicking behaviors to cope…you will infact be executing that trait properly from your mind because it will be YOUR MIND as it was always meant to be.
If I did this well, you won't be just coping but you will have newly learned or re learned some tasks that are processed in part through the frontal lobe of your brain. This area of the brain is in large part responsible for “executive functioning" which includes, directed attention/focus, reasoning, multi tasking plus others. The inability to properly stimulate these functions, are the basic issues of ADD. Why the functions don’t work properly there IS THE ADD.
In turn these issues combine and mix with individual situations of life to create other ADD traits. These are “cause and effect” kinds of traits …they all have at least one basic ADD issue as the driving force and since several are mixed with average every day tasks common to us all… we exibit many similar traits in which Physicians use as a criteria for assessment.
The basic loss of these functioning issues lead to for example some common ADD traits as decribed above, like constant absent mindedness ( forgetful of short term stuff because you couldn't focus your mind to remember it...notes, keys, appointments etc.. or if you, like your attention was distracted so not to make proper memory of it)
Too many thoughts all at once from lack of focus control results in becoming overwhelming and doing nothing ( anxious feelings, frustration, fatigue and depression usually result, who wouldn't be!!!!) or instead of at first being overwhelmed, your inability to focus on "a" thought also will make you start several things at once since you get distracted and simply forget what you were just doing and start another, then another...you know how it goes (messy rooms, disorganisation, can't stay on track etc)
Extenally the anxious feelings make you fidgit alot..if your body doesn't get rid of your nervous energy through these movements, your heart and brain will be stressed to do it instead...The feelings of anxiety increases physical movement as well as excessive thoughts (your heart is a muscle and in a way, so is your brain) and there's just no stopping it until you find a way to calm yourself or when you can't, your body does it for you automatically to try to minimise the real physical damage it can cause
When the body has to react to calm itself it's "survival mechanism kicks" in. It will slow down/cut back on oxygen to your vital organs to protect them in a strange way. It will make you feel from lathargic ( tired and fatigued) to a mid state of dizzyness, panicked, confusioned thoughts and plain tiredness with the end resulting in unconciousness (passing out) At least now your are officailly relaxed and calm in all vital areas! There are a lot of nasty places in between but I sure most of you can imagine it. You've probabley experienced it. It may also have become a learned behavioural response if it has happened repeatedly in what ever degree the anxiety got in a certain situation.
The result could be shown mildy as procrastination: the avoidance of a task usually brought on by an overwhelming feeling when considering a task, certain place or even people. It can go as far as even becoming a phobia... depending on the level of Anxiety experienced at the first event.
Unfortunately not recognised well is that there are some Phobias that are manufactured for other reasons than a tramatic event. Not all phobias are explained next but a hell of alot of ours will be avoided. We are more suceptible. I will post my reasoning for this later.
For now, I’ve posted my original thread in response to Daniel G below.
I hope you will continue with the feed back and help me find even more solutions.
None of this is a quick fix. Its a lot of work to start over in some areas and a life time of unuseful “habits” that have resulted in to other ADD traits. It does work though. One trait at a time.
If you want to know my imformation sourses, send me a private message. Its all based from Medical information available to anyone. Its not even a new idea. Its sourced in many medical journals, web sites etc. I just connected some more dots. There probably is alot of directed research in this view...I just don't know where to look for it. I can't be the only idiot to come up with it!
Thanks for giving me a chance to share and learn more.
Karen.
Karen N38417.7593981481Daniel G.
I am an adult who is diagnosed with ADD. I understand your very urgent desire to deal with aspects of your outward personality and thought patterns. You are probably inheriantly messy and disorganised in all aspects of your life. It 's not only your room but your thoughts too. In no way does this make you unintelligent. Probably the very opposite.
You are brave to fight so hard for your truth. You are not a loser. Loser's wouldn't have made it this far. They would have given in and just gone with the flow and accepted the critsism of others as an unchangeable truht. If you know there is something you can do for yourself to help, never stop searching. BUT ....always be careful to make sure your "answers" fit you...truthfully. It's easy to get excited about some explanaition for what you think you are going through. Its even more interesting when so many things can mimic other disorders. Always asking yourself to be honest when meeting criteria for a given disorder is crutial...and very hard to do. Independant evaluation by a trained professional is a must.
There is relief for ADD but it will be alot of hard work for the rest of your life. Meds alone will NEVER cure ADD. They can help you focus... having the ability to have a thought at a time or doing a task at a time without your brain getting constantly distracted by things around you is obviously helpful but there are side effects. You may feel they are worth it.
Even though meds will help to focus your attention they do not help for your lifetime of by now habitual thought processes and figiditiness brought on by the same LACK of focus/attention. You have to train your brain to use the proper areas of the brain that are currently underactive and fairly unused for what they were meant for. Meds can stimulate it but it can't re route the proccesses already adopted by your brain's stucture so you can, all be it badly, sort of carry out some tasks, data proccessing etc. The way your brain's routing these nerological paths to perform the functions as you are now IS THE ADD.
ADD IS NOT a Mental Disorder. It is more accurately a learning disorder.
Wether you were genetically predisposed to learn differently than others or had not been given sufficient direction and tools for proper brain learning/ development pathways to take place at an early age. ( By this I mean birth to around 2 years old mostly, then up to say 5) Who knows why exactly and how exactly to stimulate the right parts of the brain during early childhood to promote the best use of brain structure for its intended purpose. The fact that the brain will compensate, sometimes all be it poorly, to try to do a task with other routes through the brain as an alternative to no skill developement at all, is pretty incredible. It allows you to understand that in taking these alternate routes, your feelings while doing those tasks would make a person feel very scattered!
Don't blame your parents!!! Its just as much your possibly born inability to learn exeutive functioning/ ordering skills when at such a young age, as your parents not being able to understand that you needed to learn differently. How would they know until they put you around others and bother to compare your traits against alot of other kids? How did you know your self, until you chose to compare your self to others and found no matter how hard you tried to..you could never "just relax", "sit still" "clean up your mess" "stop talking so much" or my favorite, "you can do so much better if you just applied your self!" But no matter what you've previously tried...it just wouldn't stick.
All the brain equipment is there and in working order. It just wasn't stimulated for use for its intended tasks in infancy.
Another route inside the nero net of the brain was forged instead, one not so useable for the purpose of that task but better than nothing at all.
Think of it as a bad wiring job. Now you have to re wire it.
It won't be easy but all those brain pathways are still waiting to be used properly.
Now you need to learn how to activate the correct pathways and deactivate the alternative routes that you have been exsisting on for so long.
You have to further understand that by now these processing routes you must deactivate are habitual. you've been using them for different tasks for a long time.
You're a smart kid. I think you can grasp the consept AND how delicate a business pulling that off will be. Certainly won't happen over nite and even with the meds to aid you in focusing on A task, it'll take alot of time.
There is no cure in a bottle, only some help and even that may not and should not be forever. Don't let it become a cruch! BUT also don't turn your back on the real help meds can give. Just be very careful not to rely on them alone or see them as a cure!!!
ADD is obvious when you live this daily and several times daily, at home, at school, at work as well as in other types of relationships NOT just sometimes. Everybody can claim some aspect sometimes. That is called "just a bad day"for them not a way of life as it is for us!
Below are some of my favorite ADD highlights and some stuff to start you off
You know you have ADD when....
You get a muster of energy and resolve...you may get some self help books or emulate a friend who is popular and you go at it trying to make it be the "new you". Sadly these efforts last only a day if your lucky with many stops and starts in between. And no, its NOT cause your a failure. It just could never have worked doing it that way because of your ADD.
You have memory lapses daily over small but significant things. "in one ear out the other" type stuff and then there's the just constantly misplacing things. Lost to you within minutes of putting down, always a sense of being scattered. You write notes to remember, only to forget that the damb note itself exists just a short while later. Great help that turned out to be! haha!
When trying to do one task, you're switching every few minutes to another, then another and so on, even though eventually you may return to the first task, you just to seem to go around and around again! ( it can also be just your thoughts shooting about but you actually haven't moved yet...happens alot when I'm trying to picture my task. I end up picturing so many tasks that I'm so overwhelmed, I can do nothing...barely even move.) It appears to others like you never complete anything. Actually your are constantly starting several things and never completing one thing as a result. Hey, at least its half way there!!!
Your thought patterns will do the same while trying to think and focus. When you talk...well, you vocalise all those multitudes of thoughts often and at a "hefty tongue clip" (you're very talkative) You will also constantly interupt others when its thier turn to speak, if you even give them a chance to speak. It is important for you and your mom to know that you do not do this intentionaly. These traits are from a feeling of impulsivness... that all those thoughts/ideas have to be said NOW. And then 2 seconds later, you're on to a whole diiferent thing and so it goes. Impulsivity also shows itself in an inability to wait. If you want it...you want it NOW. If you think it...you say it NOW.
You're forever late. You hate getting out of bed. TV/music/video games are zones of non thought for you. Its all reactive, no real thought to it all hense the allure. (Beware when this kind of "zoning out" becomes "the habit of choice" when overwhelmed, much like doing a hard drug or excessive drinking. JUST SAY NO!)
You will only get motivated for an appointment or a chore AT THE VERY LAST MINUTE!!!! fear/anxiety maybe even a bit of guilt drive you forward as you urgently try to get it all done...always late though and always half assed done.(Every mother looks under the bed or in drawers that should be neat. Save yourself the trouble and her time. Ask her to help you do it right the first time, one step at a time)
You feel overwhelmed when too many thoughts come at once. Often it is when you are trying hard to focus on a task or to convey a single thought hopefully briefly. Genrally, then its often.
Secrectly you admire people not for thier looks or popularity but for there "togetherness", easy going nature and organisation. You on the other hand may be very fidgity, always moving or nervously chattering when out in public disorganised and no one would describe you as easy going. Perhaps Lazy but not easy going.
All this and more is ADD. But
There are huge positives when having ADD. You have a thousand ideas and they are GOOD ONES!
You engage people easily inspite of everything and most people enjoy your humour which is different as well
You are very creative if not in art then in identifying problems and creating solutions to solve them.
And that last one is what makes you a winner, especially when haveing the strength to get up and try, day after day, again and again, until its better. read on for a few tips. Note how small the task is broken down.
This is important since ADDers get overwhelmed. Pick a task. Break that task down even more simply to its components on a list.
Now consentrate on one component at a time. Do one. Read the next one. Do it. and so on.
Force your brain back often to the first component of the task.
Make a huge flash card and put it in front of you if you have to. Do what ever it takes.
Now finish in the same way all the components that make A task.
Do this every day for 3 weeks and you have created a habit!
If you don't have to think about doing the task, you can't get overwhelmed and you'll do the task automatically even while thinking of other stuff at the same time. If that sounds impossible...you walk and think at the same time don't you? You may not even recall the walk for thinking so much of other matters but you make it still to your destination.
How is it that you can do that! The motions and coordination/balance of walking, the muscle and brain processes to allow your body to walk and the usualness of where you are going, are by now habitually done...no consious thought required...but in the beginning you had to learn all of these and so much more.
Try some more...
1) since you know that your short term memory sucks (mostly because you are not focusing and there for retaining something you just did or heard) you have to then make as many things habits as you can. This is tricky because it takes around one month of consistantly doing something before it becomes a habit. This means remembering this new habit and then to REMEMBER TO REMEMBER several times a day about the same habit you are trying to form!!! So try this...pick a spot to put stuff you need with you daily. You may already habitualy take something always with you ( I smoke so its safe to say I always notice if I do not have my smokes with me and will look for them ever time...DO NOT START SMOKING EVER by the way) so one way to remeber something new to take with you is to place it with stuff you already do remember every day from a specific spot. Works great for returning library books or videos on time!
If you don't have a spot or stuff you take daily then break out the sticky pads! Pick a "sacred spot" for your stuff. Always put your stuff only there. Use notes and then more notes to remind you of the first notes message and place them is a few key spots where you will be sure to see them. First try to make only USING the spot daily a habit and then CHECKING the spot daily a habit. Once its habitual to you to place your stuff there and to look there first for your important day to day items you will be alot more organised! ( takes about a month and you will not do so great the first week or so but you must STICK AT IT EVEN SO. Stop once for a day and its unlikely you will try again for quite a while. Just push through it. If you forget, try the task again right away.)
Any where you can stucture yourself the better. One on One help in school, mostly to GENTLY be brought back on track. At home tell your mom you are doing homework. Pick one subject at a time and keep your thoughts simple by taking it a step at a time. Go slow but deliberately. Start again when your off track or you notice when your mind runs way ahead in the homework problems and leaves you momentarily clueless to the one you were actually on. Learn to recognise when this happens, calm your self inside and direct your attention back to the origional task. Ask your Mom to stop in from time to time and ask you how you are doing and only that. She's to get you off of day dreaming. Use this as a chance to "snap out of it" and put yourself on track. After a while you won't need her as a distraction to get a hold of your run away thoughts. You will occasionally get a "blank mind" for a time when you try to refocus on the origional task. You may not know exactly what you where doing or understand what you had just wrote before you got distracted, exactly meant. DO NOT GET FRUSTRATED. Just don't push it and it will come back. If not, reason it out again and start a new.
If this sounds like something you can relate to and the solution do-able then maybe seek out the help of a Psycho Therapist through your doctor or Mental Health office. They are not Psychiatrists or Psycologists. They are however excellent councellors and are specifically trained in behavioural management on a day to day basis. This means they help you cope by identifying old habits and replacing them with new ones. You tell them one issue you have at a time. They'll help you see and understand that habit or issue for what it is in its basic parts and give you a few suggestions to try to cope and ultimately change that habit. If they take into account your ADD, they will modify thier suggestions into "small" do-able steps. Often your perseption about the task as a result will change noticebly to you, as if its almost a new way to look at an old problem. This is the way your brain activates those under stimulated areas as if you were learning how to proccess those small tasks as a kid but through the right way this time. You must keep up with the suggestion you find works for you until it becomes habit. NOTE habits are LEARNED skills.
This will take time but can help you better manage day to day life and psycho therapy can even show effective ways to calm your self (feelings,mind or mouth) in certain situations.
As your brain RE LEARNS to focus or in reality is actually learning for the first time how to PROPERLY FOCUS, everything else will be easier.
The anxiety will lessen, being overwhelmed will lessen and the impulsivity will lessen AS YOU LEARN TO FOCUS your will and attention on just one task at a time.
Be very aware when you acknowledge the old habit. At first, you will only be aware of the old habit "while its happening" or just after. and later, as you try more, you'll become aware "before its happening" and have a chance to replace that habit with a new response that is better. You'll need to do this several times but very soon it will replace the old habit!
Please note this fact and the differences: where it takes 3-4 weeks to learn a whole NEW habit...it can take up to 3 MONTHS to replace an OLD habit with a NEW one.
By the end of this year you could replace 3, maybe 4 bad, old habitual habits you hate with good ones and make 10 to 12 new skills/ habits you never had before.
Thats more than the average joe will ever do in 10 years. And it will end up being like a game for you that you'll get off on the challenge of it. Best Part...you see, feel and are aware of real change as are those around you!
However an addictive habitual behaviour will take at the very least 1 year to replace with a positive one but the addictive aspects will haunt you for years since they are chemical in nature and this is the basis of your brain functioning. Its very hard to eliminate those kinds of experiences. Smells are the hardest, then tastes, then emotional/physical feelings then actual memories. Somewhere in all that is the key to reinforcing your new, relearned habits. Whats hardest to erase is maybe the best for reinforcing a task or thought or idea. Your mom can explain this better to you. My brain is very tired now. I write as much as I talk.
IF I sound so unfeeling and matter of factly about this stuff its because I have learned it is not entirely my choice and there for not my fault I do these things. That its pretty damb good all that I have become today inspite of this and in someways...because of it. However, I still want better for myself and am capable of assisting in my recovery. I choose to look at it with humour and often talk about IT (ADD) as if it were another personality that temporarily grabs hold of me gainst my will and that eventually I will disolve it altogether and only I will be left standing.
Truthfully, I'd be happy to basically concentrate and remember well. I talk alot but my friends get more joy than annoyment by it. The cutting off thier conversation thing however wears a bit thin. So take a look at your self well. You may like some traits of your ADD. Its not all bad stuff all of the time!
Some Reading Material......
Try a book called A Scattered Mind or Scattered Minds by Doctor Gabor Mate'. He himself has ADD and treates it as well. He has a web for this book that you can read a few chapters out of it and about him. I've spoken to him on the phone recently. I didn't know he did not treat ADD now and was dissapointed but he kindly helped me find assesment. He is now helping people overcome addictions on the street level and all that involves. Very admirable man. http://www.scatteredminds.com/drmate.htm
A good coping book for tasks and excellent explanations on whats going on with you, meds etc.. is "Adventures in fast forward, Life, love and work for the ADD adult" by Nadeau, Kathleen G.
But hey, what else is your time on this earth for but to learn and grow. You will just be more aware of it than others. You will embrace challenging yourself daily and seeing results. Small at first...not so easy to do even when that small but always do-able.
Take care, Karen from Canada
Karen,I want to thank you and tell you how much I appreciate the time you took to type your very informative and interesting post to Daniel. (How're your finger feeling, Karen? Is the feeling back in them? ) It took me a while to read at first, because I kept being distracted. However, I'm really proud how focused I actual;y became while reading it. I hope you don't mind that I copied your post to MS Word (7 pages!) so I could re-read it in a little larger print and while not on line.
Excellent management tools for learning to focus! Thank you.
I've recently started on meds for ADHD, but already feel I'm losing a part of me I like about myself, for example, my perkiness and abilitiy to laugh. I definitely may opt for no ADHD meds yet staying on my antidepressants, which have worked wonders for me, and learning to focus the way you have described. Since I'm 55 years old, I sure have a lot of "bad" habits I've been doing a long time. Just hope it doesn't take as long to change them.
Who, me? Us? Interrupt people? Naw!
Again, thanks.Karen N wrote:
[quote]ADD IS NOT a Mental Disorder. It is more accurately a learning disorder. [/quote]
LuvMyKids02 wrote:
[quote]Big applause here
I have never read such an accurate account of ADHD on a message board. Every statement you made was right on target and every suggestion you made in terms of developing coping skills and retraining the brain was brilliant. Your post demonstrates how truly exceptional people are who are living with ADHD and I hope that anyone reading your post will use it as an educational tool. You made a tremendous contribution here in terms of providing accurate, credible information. Absoltuely outstanding post. Take a bow [/quote]
I absolutely agree, AD(H)D is not a mental disorder, but a learning disorder. However, I'm still concerned about the dopamine and seritonin levels (or whatever it is that lacks in an AD(H)D's brain) which contribute to the learning disability. I know excercise is crucial and helpful. So are you saying, Karen, even with these "deficencies" we should be able to teach ourself w/o meds to relearn and learn to focus?
GypsyWomyn38417.7888078704 I take exception that ADHD is a mental or learning disorder. I never did well in school because school was boring. Not because it was hard or I didn't like history. What is the point of those subjects in school? Really. History? Does knowing about the Magna Carta help me? No, I believe an alternate theory of the origin of ADHD myself. ADHD isn't a defect or disorder, rather it is evidence of an evolutionary fork in mankind. Many such forks exist, but people may not recognize them. This falls in line with the "Hunter theory."
ADHD is more of an evolutionary survival trait. There is ample precedent for genetic "diseases" which, in fact, represent evolutionary survival strategies. Sickle cell anemia, for example, is now known to make its victims less susceptible to malaria. When living in the jungles of Africa where malaria is endemic, it was a powerful evolutionary tool against death by disease; in the malaria free environment of North America, it became a liability.
The same is true of Tay Sachs disease, a genetic condition which hits mainly Eastern European Jews, and confers on them a relative immunity to tuberculosis. And even cystic fibrosis, the deadly genetic disease common among Caucasians (approx. one in twenty-five white Americans carries the gene), may represent a genetic adaptation - recent research indicates the cystic fibrosis gene helps protect its victims, at younger ages, from death by such diarrheal diseases as cholera, which periodically swept Europe thousands of years ago.
It's not so unusual, apparently, for humans to have, built into our genetic material, protection against local diseases and other environmental conditions. Certainly, Darwin's theory of natural selection argues in favor of such bodily defenses. Those individuals with the immunities would survive to procreate and pass along their genetic material.
As the human race moved from its earliest ancestors, two basic types of cultures evolved. In the areas which were lush with plant and animal life and had a low human population density, hunters and gatherers predominated. In other parts of the world (particularly Asia), farming or agricultural societies evolved.
The theory states that symptoms of ADHD are similar, if not exactly, traits that match those skills that are inherent to those in Hunting societies. To name a few:
They constantly monitor their environment. They can totally throw themselves into the hunt; time is elastic. They're flexible, capable of changing strategy on a moment's notice. They can throw an incredible burst of energy into the hunt. They think visually. They love the hunt, but are easily bored by mundane tasks such as having to clean the fish, dress the meat, etc. They'll face danger that "normal" individuals would avoid. They're hard on themselves and those around them. While many people may think this is too general, think about or symtpoms.
Constant Motion. Many animals, especially predators move constantly, that is until they need to. When not hunting sure they can relax, so can we sometimes but not for long. Time-management. What is so important about time? the only really important thing in life is the task in which we are involved. Why do you think other types of people, namely genuises are also not 'worried' about time? It is unimportant in life. Flexibility. Unless the person has another problem, such as OCD, I have found that many ADHDers are very flexible. They can change tasks, jobs, assignments and responsibilities very easily with minimal effort. Incredible bursts of energy. We all know what hyperfocusing is. It is not a liability in and of itself, only when ADHDers have no stimulation does hyperfocusing on useless things affect us. Find something that interests you and you can do, learn and accomplish more than most normal people doing the same thing. Thinking visually. Not sure about this one. Personally, I think visually and have a very hard time explaining my thoughts to others. Not to my friend with ADHD though, they seem to get me. I wonder why? :) Easily bored by mundane tasks. Heh, yup mundane tasks are for mundane people. Like Einstein said, why waste time wearing a watch and expending energy looking at it, when he has lesser students to tell him what time it is. Sounds like delegation. This is why I can't work with groups. They need to do something my way, now or it doesn't work. Incidentally, I noticed in school that when given difficult, but interesting and mind engaging tasks, I outperformed most groups. Even those with students having a higher intelligence. Unafraid of danger. True. While we have weird fears involving socialization. Socialization is not important in life. Not really. Life is more about survival. When it comes down to it. We are not afraid to do things that are frightening. ADHDers take way more risks than the average person. Risk-taking is what life is about. Starting a business, joining the infantry, hunting a criminal, being a criminal. Most people float through life in a safe risk-free manner. How sad. Not one person became rich, famous, historically significant or powerful by being safe. Risk is good. Hard on themselves and those around them. This one is easy. Survival. ADHDers are impatient and easily frustrated with normal people. Why? In extreme situations, such as war, hunts, or even group survival, there is no time for bullsh*t, for lack of a better word. Even sports, if people don't hold up their end they put everybody in jeopardy. This is unnacceptable. This is another reason why group work and team efforts are anethema to many ADHDers. Most people can't live up to our standards and that will not do. Life is about split-second decisions. So is survival. This holds true for us too. There is no room for weakness or dissention or emotion. Only survival.
Now many people will think, but these things are bad. Not really. Maybe according to society. But society does not dictate life. Even if it does this explains why many ADHDers do extreme things. Criminal behavior, extreme sports, or even jobs that are mentally and physically engaging and taxing. The medical profession for example. Many nurses complain about being understaffed, overworked, burned out. Obviously these are normal people. Pity, because when is the last time an ADHDer suffered like this when doing something they enjoyed? Really. Co-workers, patients and family members at the nursing home that I work at are absolutely amazed that every day I come to work smiling, run around like I am a 'crackhead', am flexible to the point of making everyone else look like whining babies when asked to do something out of the ordinary, work 16 hour days, without breaks, for days on end? Is my ADHD a defect? Right, being normal is the defect. Now maybe I can't sit at a desk and type all day. Like I said mundane tasks are performed by mundane people. Only truly extraordinary and gifted people do these jobs everyday. Firefighters, not all police but swat team members, not all soldiers but frontline soldiers, medical professionals. ADHDers excel at these kinds of dangerous, over-taxing jobs. Why? We love the hunt.
Take in mind this is just a theory, but it is very plausible. Also take note that those that discover and diagnose ADHD are not usually ADHDers and that society shuns those that are different. We are different, in my opinion better, but those that label us different also label us as having a mental or learning disorder, or having behavioral problems. We don't, we just don't like to do the same boring things as you normal people. We are sick of the status quo, useless and boring schoolwork and jobs. We want excitement. Don't hold us back because we don't do our schoolwork. Give us harder work, not more. If we fail at algebra maybe it is because it is basic math. We are not basic we want calculus and trig, not basic math. We want disorder not structure. We want to live in our world not yours.
I'm sorry, I am rambling again so I'll just leave you with something to think about from the greatest and most genius and also ADHDer of all time. Albert Einstein. The first four speak specifically to us ADHDers and our situation in this silly country of labels.
"The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education." "I never think of the future. It comes soon enough." ...one of the strongest motives that lead men to art and science is escape from everyday life with its painful crudity and hopeless dreariness, from the fetters of one's own ever-shifting desires. A finely tempered nature longs to escape from the personal life into the world of objective perception and thought." "He who joyfully marches to music rank and file, has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action. It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder."
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." "The only real valuable thing is intuition." "Weakness of attitude becomes weakness of character." "Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new." "Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds." "Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen." "The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education."
"The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing." "Do not worry about your difficulties in Mathematics. I can assure you mine are still greater." "One had to cram all this stuff into one's mind for the examinations, whether one liked it or not. This coercion had such a deterring effect on me that, after I had passed the final examination, I found the consideration of any scientific problems distasteful to me for an entire year."
Einstein was a genius. If you think you can argue with his thoughts then you are most definately either a genius too or a fool. Geniuses are rare, fools aren't.
Sorry that I posted such a long message. I do really take offense to any thinking we are disordered we aren't. We are on the same evolutionary line as Einstein. :) That makes me feel better every day. And don't worry about gleaning any knowledge from any post. Like the great man said, " Imagination is more important than knowledge." Ask every great thinker, they'll say the same. You think Newton was hyperfocusing when the apple hit him on the head? I think so, he must have been dazed out or he would definately have dodged the apple.
The statement that AD/HD is NOT a mental disorder is something that I don't know if I agree with. While the vast majority of us inherited AD/HD, there are those who acquired it later in life through head trauma, seizures from high fevers, and through different illnesses...I have read of ones who were diagnosed with AD/HD well into adulthood AFTER having a head injury, or an illness. What of these ones? They may have had no problems as children learning, and yet now they have AD/HD complete with all of the common symptoms...
Would this not prove that AD/HD is less of a developmental issue and more of a preprogrammed brain issue in cases where it is inherited?
WOW! I cant wait until I have time to read all this. THANKS EVERY ONE!~Z
To Sonya_h
You are right and I'm right also. ADD is only a description of a list of traits that are created specifically from an inability to focus consistently, direct attention and reason effectively at a single task ,at your own will. In ADDer's, this will be the rule not the exception on a many times a day, everyday basis. Otherwise, if its only occasionally true...you are probably fine and just having a bad day.
The area of the brain responsible for this is the frontal lobe in charge of those Executive Functions...all of those listed above. I had no accident. My brain is fine. not a thing out of place. Not even a "chemical imbalance". Yet I have most definately ADD. I've always had it but only became assessed as an adult.( I'm 38)
Since ADD is related to a specific region of the brain...a number of illnesses, accidents etc affecting that part could very well create ADD issuses where there are previously none. I and many others are not like those you've mentioned although no doubt there are quite a few with alternate ADD origins.
This is why I started this topic. To get peole to accept that ADD is only a list of criteria that relate in function to the frontal lobe of the brain. How exactly your brain was affected there holds the key to if you can only hope to just cope with it or be fortunate to affect its change through learning if your origins are similar to mine. If you don't know which...spend a month and try to make a new and benificial habit. If it sticks, meaning you do it automatically a certain way without thought...then you know you can learn and relearn more. What have you got to loose? Meds can only help to minimise some traits in all the types of ADD. they can't cure it. They can however be of great assistance if your meds help you to focus. Your habit learning will be greatly increased but even without them...it can be done. I'm proof of it.
People who are brain DAMAGED in that area...I really couldn't say if they could or could not do it. You have to find your own truth. But to try is free. so why not try?
Karen N38418.1541087963Wow, lots of real long posts!
What a shame I can't get beyond the first paragraph in any of 'em. 
Mark -
[QUOTE=Stanley] The theory states that symptoms of ADHD are similar, if not exactly, traits that match those skills that are inherent to those in Hunting societies. To name a few:They constantly monitor their environment. They can totally throw themselves into the hunt; time is elastic. They're flexible, capable of changing strategy on a moment's notice. They can throw an incredible burst of energy into the hunt. They think visually. They love the hunt, but are easily bored by mundane tasks such as having to clean the fish, dress the meat, etc. They'll face danger that "normal" individuals would avoid. They're hard on themselves and those around them.
[/QUOTE]
Ermm.. did you forget 'They can never remember where they left their spears'?
Mark -
Long posts? Yes.Potentially valuable? Yes.
These are some interesting ideas, new and fresh, and I think we owe it to ourselves to seriously at least consider them.
I know I'm going to copy and paste a couple of the longer ones into a Word file for later re-reading!
Thanks!
(when I'm feeling more philosophical like usual, I'll try to chime in! - but it's still early for me) [QUOTE=csr19us]Long posts? Yes.
Potentially valuable? Yes.
These are some interesting ideas, new and fresh, and I think we owe it to ourselves to seriously at least consider them.
I know I'm going to copy and paste a couple of the longer ones into a Word file for later re-reading!
Thanks!
(when I'm feeling more philosophical like usual, I'll try to chime in! - but it's still early for me)[/QUOTE]
I didn't mean to imply that they weren't useful. I was just surprised at how long they were. I'm sorry if it sounded critical.
I really am going to try to read them later but I'm at work right now. I'm sorry if I was rude. [QUOTE=csr19us] Oh no scary! I didn't mean that... I was just enthralled by these new theories... got a little excited, LOL[/QUOte]
ME TOO! It is enthalling! I'm ADHHHHD and have been getting worse as I get older (55 now). I'm not so sure meds is going to be the route me. I think they may "focus" me too much, or not on the right things. Not sure how to explain what I mean.
But some of you may.
What I'm hearing that Karen means by ADHD "being a learning disorder," ISN'T that we can't learn, but that the negative aspects of ADHD, or those things we'd like to change so we can keep our jobs or friends, etc., CAN be changed, even w/o meds, BY LEARNING. That we CAN learn, learn "habits" to replace those that we were, so to speak, "born" with. That we can teach ourselves to focus, and therefore to make positive changes we want.
Yes, we're different. And yes, there are many positive aspects of being ADHD. And Karen definitely says that. But to be able to change those aspects we don't like, more power to us. And to do it w/o meds, even more power to us.
I see that she's just giving us an alternative to meds in learning how to focus...and the rest follows.
Of course, this is just my opinion.
GypsyWomyn38418.5046759259I don't think the theory discount innatentives. Innatentaviness only goes so far. The older you get the more you can and should control it. Also, who here that is innatentive doesn't have an activity that you enjoy doing? Do you have trouble focusing on your enjoyable activity? Probably not. That is what the theory states, it doesn't have to be a hunt. It could be anything. OR it could be a lesser step in the evolutionary chain. An innattentive child in the jungle might get eaten. Who knows. Oh no scary! I didn't mean that... I was just enthralled by these new theories... got a little excited, LOL [QUOTE=Mark Goode]
Ermm.. did you forget 'They can never remember where they left their spears'?
Mark -
[/QUOTE]Hahahahahahahaha! That's exactly what I would do if I was a hunter. I have some of the qualities above. I hate mundane tasks (but who doesn't), I'm hard on myself, and I am not very time sensitive. Still, I don't think I would be a very good hunter. I would probably get lost, forget something, lose my hunting tools or get distracted by something else. I'd probably be stalking my prey and suddenly hear a bird chirping and then run off to chase the pretty bird. Or maybe the sound of a stream or babbling brook would distract me and I would go off to swim and completely forget about the hunt. Or I might be so hyperfocused that I won't realize a bear is following me. I'd probably get devoured by the bear in the midst of my hyperfocusing, daydreaming or inattentiveness.
Plus I think that theory is very narrow because it doesn't fit the inattentive ADHD people very well. I'm more of the inattentive type than the hyperactive type so I don't seek "danger" the way a hyperactive ADHDer would.
scarygreengiant38418.4858217593Karen N, your posts are so long. I don't know if I'll be able to read them.
Luvmykids02 wrote:
Adhd is not a learning disability. I don't know EXACTLY what causes add. I do know what it does. And it does create problems due to lack of focus and a high level of distractibility in all ages. That is the condition of ADD. The ability to focus is not an automatic reflex like breathing. Neither is "directed" attention. They are learned and improved on every time a task is repeated or learned that includes them. I learned to move my hand, then to grab, tie a shoe...now I write. A baby cannot initially track a moving object but slowly she learns to...focusing her attention on a specific object. She will not do well at it initially but in a short time, she will learn! At the same instant her brain is busily stimulated in the area responsible. Its imprinting this knowledge and each event expands the amount of Nero pathways
I have always had ADD. I was never in an accident. I do not have a chemical imbalance. My parents are weird but not ADDers. I am not adopted, I look just like them, only better! HAHA. What if when I was born with these core issues someone, some how, had noticed. What if they taught me everything they would any other small child but just in a way that took into account my lack of focus etc. It would take longer for me to grasp and learn than others. But as a newborn my brain would be a clean slate; free of coping skills and years of bad habits and the emotional turmoil this creates. If I could have learned then to focus, direct my attention, reason clearly and effectively.....could I have not adjusted and progressed then normally as others?
I wonder this for future babies yet to be born. As an adult I have deminished some of my ADD traits through relearning but I have a lifetime of coping habits to replace. I coped with my lack of focus....I never learned to focus well, instead.
Karen N38418.9476388889I really think it's just a question of semantics and what is menat by LD...I don't really see any disagreement about what ADHD is.Well, something sure screwed up my chances of learning anything at school - if not ADHD, then what? Don't say I screwed it up myself - I've been hearing that rubbish for 40 years.
I was simply making the distinction betwen the diagnosis of ADHD as opposed to a learning disability. Both present problems learning but for very different reasons. It is important to know the distinction as the treatment of these two disorders is very different . If anyone through they years told you that you screwed up then your right, its nothing but rubbish.
[QUOTE=Luvmykids02]Adhd is not a learning disability.
[/QUOTE]
Well, something sure screwed up my chances of learning anything at school - if not ADHD, then what? Don't say I screwed it up myself - I've been hearing that rubbish for 40 years.
Mark -
[QUOTE=Luvmykids02]To date there is no conclusive evidence stating that head injuries or brain trauma can cause one to aquire ADHD. [/QUOTE]
I beg to differ. I read one of Dr. Amen's books, and their IS evidence that head injuries and certain illnesses, including meningitis, seizures from high fevers, and lead toxicity, can and does cause AD/HD, complete with all of the common symptoms that most of the ones in this forum display....
sonya_h38418.5927430556I don't take offense at the term disorder only because it is reference to what the statistical norm is. My brain does work differently. In a lot of ways that can be positive in some ways in society it can interfere with succuss. i don't feel at all handicapped though. I have great intutive skills in problem solving and am VERY good at convincing people of my point of view both of which stem in part from the adhd i think. one a result of juggling a lot at once and maybe reaching a conclusion a more methodical person wouldnt and the other because i am very fast on my feet and extremelly good at discerning challanges to a point of view because I question so much so, can disarm them before they are even stated. I sure wish I didnt leave the house 3 times and return 3 times for am not thinking of because my thoughts are elesewhere when i am not taking medicine, I'd rather blurt a little less, not vibrate my leg when not taking medicine and maybe pick up on a social cue or two lol...but hey, imo it isnt a handicap I am just wetwired a little different and am grateful there is medicine I can take to make living in a world made for those who are predominately wored a little different easier.... there were times in my life the frustration of being the squre peg drove me nuts.
I am happier and have shown more fealty to family than most people I know....someone's level of succuss is based on the yardstick they use....i tossed out the Consumer Society American, how is your house, what suff you have how do you appear to feel compared to your neighbors one and adopted an internal one based on right and wrong behavior and...lo and behold I was suddenlly a pretty freaking happy guy... who knows maybe the out of the box thinking helped me jump out of the rat race easier.... But, you cant have the ritalin I dont wont to get calls from bill collectors again lol
I read one of Dr. Amen's books, and their IS evidence that head injuries and certain illnesses, including meningitis, seizures from high fevers, and lead toxicity, can and does cause AD/HD, complete with all of the common symptoms that most of the ones in this forum display....
Yes, Dr Amen is brilliant and his studies and theories may lead to a lot of break through in medical science in terms of alzheimers, adhd and many other neurological disorders. There is evidence but it is not stated in any medical peer journals to be conclusive evidence as a cause of ADHD. Hopefully brilliant men like Dr Amen will lead us to more definitive answers which will hopefully bring about a cure in the future.
Also, who here that is innatentive doesn't have an activity that you enjoy doing? Do you have trouble focusing on your enjoyable activity? Probably not. That is what the theory states, it doesn't have to be a
hunt. It could be anything. OR it could be a lesser step in the evolutionary chain. An innattentive child in the jungle might get eaten. Who knows.
[/QUOTE]
Hey Stanley, nice pic! You certainly look happy! You should be having found this forum!
Sure, we (ADHDers) all hyperfocus...on things we enjoy...like this addictive forum! But it's those things we can't focus on that we NEED to focus on to accomplish that is such a problem for me. As I say above, I'm more "hyper" than inattentive...but can't get motivated, focus on what needs to be done! And, boy, does [>that get me in trouble!
What promotes you to say the older we get the more we should abe able to control inattentiveness? Really curious? If it stems from a "disability" I don't see it. To be redundant, I'm getting worse. The only reason I may be able to control some of the negative things I do, like my impulsivity, interrupting people, etc., is because I went through some group counseling, and we learned some skills to use.
But I love the creativity, the problemsolving, etc. and don't ever want to lose those.
GypsyWomyn38419.2919907407
Adhd is not a learning disability. Children with ADHD have learning problems due to lack of focus and a high level of distractability. Chidlren with learning diabilities have a problem with learning because there is a problem with processing information properly. To date there is no conclusive evidence stating that head injuries or brain trauma can cause one to aquire ADHD. Below are two links about ADHD myths and also the many condtions that mimmic ADHD
Myths About Attention Deficit Disorder or ADD
[/QUOTE]
Ermm.. did you forget 'They can never remember where they left their spears'?
Mark -
[/QUOTE]
How do you think all those flint tools the leakeys found came to be?? If not for those ADHD hunters their would of been no need to keep making more!
the whole risk taking as a survival mechanism is a bit flawed.... I would of been dead by ten a half dozen times from physical injuries I sustaineed doing either really stupid daring things or just not paying attention.....You have to live to breed....maybe that's why we are such a small population...great hunters...just they dont hang around to pass on their genes sometimes
howdy folks!
I see this has been a tremendous outlet to share views, opinions, experience and general insight. For signing up, what is up with all the optional pictures, did I register for a game of dungeons and dragons? All good.
Any one know about the add conference in Tucson AZ this may/ anyone gone to the chadd? In my journey of accessing and diagnosing and now treatment for my “adult adhd” I finally felt like I found my group. Recall the November rain song by blind melon, so that song tunes in the background then more often than not the that ripping sound of needle on the record and im back I n the gray area.. why? Well the subtypes of ADD/ADHD.
I mean don’t ya feel some what but not entirely like this article or that description.
In the book driven to distraction I felt the authors did and excellent job of 15 out of 20 criteria to describe someone with adhd. More form my perspective. Also bunches of stores about people and their issues and how they now manage then via medical and behavioral treatment. . I felt parts of some and none of some, all good over all. For example, I never thought my over time hours put into to work instead of enjoying an afternoon relaxing with a friend was really my ‘fix for structure”
Also, they say cute people always have the one ugly friend as do smart people have the dumb one. Well I have always felt I was the dumb joc. When I tell my friends of my adhd, they are like you must not have been paying attention, we told you back in bla bla you have it, we just love and accept you for who you are.
Then I tell then my issues as a result of feeling I’m not worthy and provide examples of when I have not felt worthy or proof that hey you are all are smart I’m just the dumb jock. Any achievement I have reached has rarely / never felt like success, but more in a sense of a fake or fraud. silence often accompanied this part. But worked out.
So my experience was whoo, hooo I got a name, im cured!! No so much. Never thought (nor my friends) taking my meds would be an issue. I mean come on what about all the self medicating, caffeine, ephedrine, hydroxyl cut, no damn it I’m not trying to lose weight and this cup of coffee in my hand you say might be the cause of my high energy, well frankly im about 3 cups behind and not in the zone! calm state.
Working through all that now. Taking the meds, not much of a coffee diet, one way to afford that Adderall with out insurance, chadd discount card and no more star buck financing. I actually have tea in the morning, most of the time I do not drink it, I think It is the habit of a morning routine. I might have to take them for all of my life, or not. But for sure I take them for ME not for the comfort of those around me. I have experience more success in implementing and maintaining newer habits and behavior modifications.
If you are still reading check out www.illwillpress.com for kicks, also if more info requested or comment or concerns contact me. If an emergency please call 911.
Thanks everyone, we are not abnormal, there is a phase shift in occurring in human thought process, we are just the externalities of the bell curve they need to catch up, not us slow down. Hence why we are innovative, creative and adventurous.
What would have happen if Franklin Roosevelt didn’t hang a key form his kite????
Okay last one for real when googling type in positives benefit adhd and see what happens, print it out only if you plan to hang it while the ink is wet (ASAP) so you can be reminded of positives.
But please, do not screw it up for everyone else by using ADHD as an excuse. Use it as an explination.
! If you are lazy, confused bla bla than accept that you are just lazy and confused bla bla.
! If you think you are adhd, get diagnosed, for several reasons.
If you have been diagnosed? Well congratulations, you can pay attention long enough to decide to do or not to do something about it! How do you think you made it this far??
Do not stay a “victim” the world is very uncaring about who succeeds and who does not. Charles Schwab, all sorts of issues, but did something. Granted I feel that he had the necessary structures in place. So find yours. There are a many ways of doing something. You job is to find the many ways that work for you. Failure is not the falling down, it is the saying down. ‘get up getup get busy I want to see you party…”
vikki619 wrote:
Failure is not the falling down, it is the saying down. ‘get up getup get busy I want to see you party…”
Another brilliant post by yet....another individual dealing with ADHD issues. Bravo
Karen N wrote:
I wonder this for future babies yet to be born. As an adult I have deminished some of my ADD traits through relearning but I have a lifetime of coping habits to replace. I coped with my lack of focus....I never learned to focus well, instead.
You make a very valid point. This is what Ive observedwith my son as he gets older. Some of his ADHD traits have diminished as a result of altertative strategies being applied consistantly. He has learned to compensate for his limitations in terms of focusing ability and organization skills. This is why experts cannot stress enough the importance of early intervention. When alternatives are spoken about, its not only about alternative remedies but also alternative strategies and you have given many excellent suggestions an tips Karen
[QUOTE=Stanley] ... allowing genetically inferior breeding (WOW before posts come in with hate mail, I don't mean race or anything silly like that. I mean people with seriously deficient genes having children and not allowing those deprecated genes to die. But that is another topic all together.)
[/QUOTE]
I understand what you mean, stanley. Once a society reaches the level of ours, evolution is done. Those who would be too weak to breed in a 'Darwinian' envoronment (for want of a better term) are actively aided by the rest of us, whether this be through medical care or other kinds of welfare support (and by 'welfare' I don't mean neccessarily money). The other problem evolution is now facing is our global society. Evolution works best when there is an isolated group - either a species on the brink of extinction (as is believed to have been the case with early Man), or a group which is separated from the mainstream (such as the fauna of the Galapagos islands).
I was going to say something tremendously interesting and relevant next, but I forgot what it was
Mark -
I'm not convinced by the 'train your brain' theory, sorry. Neither do I believe that ADHD is some new phase of human consciousness - evolution just doesn't work that way.
As I understand it, ADHD (ADD, or whatever you call it) is a condition caused by a combination of genes (when I was diagnosed the specialist said about 30 genes were involved). These genes seem unrelated - there's one for restless legs, one for a larger than normal gap between big and second toes (go on, have a look), one for a smaller brain (specifically the prefrontal cortex, caudate nucleus and globus pallidus). These are not things that can be learned, or cured by training.
ADHD is nothing new, its characteristics can be recognised in folk tales going back a thousand years (the arabian Nights stories, for example, are full of them).
If I may take a brain dump here, I'll put forward my theory.
I don't subscribe to Thom Hartman's 'hunter' theory - but I think he's looking along the right lines. Imagine a long time ago, when our ancestors where still more monkey than man, and when intelligence was little more than a spark. Wouldn't it be an advantage for a troop of monkey-men to have at least one member with ADHD-type characteristics? When the rest of the troop are pre-occupied with eating bugs and picking fleas off one another, our primitive ADDer is acting as a reciever for every sound, sight and smell around him. He startles more easily than the rest too, and he sleeps far more lightly. This is the one who will be the first to spot the large predator sneaking through the long grass, and at his shriek of alarm the troop will adopt any defence they have - whether it be running, climbing trees, making a lot of noise, or just making sure that grandad is between the lion and the young.
These days, there are not too many toothy monsters trying to eat us, and so our ADHD traits have become a burden to us.
It's just a theory, and probably quite, quite wrong.
Mark -
This is what I meant. If it was an evolutionary step, it was a primitive or at least ancient one. The problem with evolution is that we are moving faster than evolution can keep pace with. We also destroy the process of evolution by toxifying or bodies, allowing genetically inferior breeding (WOW before posts come in with hate mail, I don't mean race or anything silly like that. I mean people with seriously deficient genes having children and not allowing those deprecated genes to die. But that is another topic all together.)I find that in today's real world of business and school normal people prevail. In the REAL world of war, life and death, living in the jungle, being a cop or fireman or soldier. ADHDers prevail. There has to be a reason, there always is. Also ADHDers are usually gifted or genius. Those that are gifted or neither share many common traits with geniuses. Geniuses have led the world. Einstein, Newton and all the others. Many lists have been created with historical figures that fit the bill. Well, maybe Einstein was genius or maybe just ADHD. The point is they present themselves the same.
I believe the few ADHDers that do not suceed at something have not found something they like. More and more people are being diagnosed. Is this because of misdiagnosis or is it because more people are ADHD than we thought. Either way, the large numbers of those with ADHD suggest that it is not a defect, but rather a genetically based deviation that can only be explained by evolution or some grand problem with our environment (This would be pollution, bad water or something the can affect major %'s of the population. I prefer to believe that is not so). We can not say that evolution doesn't work a certain way. We still do not why evolution kill all dinosaurs but allowed some to live on as crocs and birds. We are always evolving. Unless we get in the way.
[QUOTE=BOBEL]
Damn fine thing to imo...I'd hate to live in a society that treats those with disabilities like something to be discarded. I've done great but, I have a severely handicapped brother who has lived a decent life only because society cared for him enough to help.
[/QUOTE]
I certainly wasn't suggesting that there was anything wrong here - nothing was further from my thoughts. The collective caring for the needy is precisely the difference between our society, in which evolution has probably stopped, and a 'Darwinian' environment where the fittest survive and the weakest don't - and evolution is active.
I don't fancy the latter much myself either.
Mark -
I didn't think you were... I just think it's a damn fine thing we "conquered" nature[QUOTE=Mark Goode][QUOTE=Stanley] ... allowing genetically inferior breeding (WOW before posts come in with hate mail, I don't mean race or anything silly like that. I mean people with seriously deficient genes having children and not allowing those deprecated genes to die. But that is another topic all together.)
[/QUOTE]
I understand what you mean, stanley. Once a society reaches the level of ours, evolution is done. Those who would be too weak to breed in a 'Darwinian' envoronment (for want of a better term) are actively aided by the rest of us, whether this be through medical care or other kinds of welfare support (and by 'welfare' I don't mean neccessarily money).
Mark -
[/QUOTE]
Damn fine thing to imo...I'd hate to live in a society that treats those with disabilities like something to be discarded. I've done great but, I have a severely handicapped brother who has lived a decent life only because society cared for him enough to help.
Wow, that day was weird! Posted three time by mistakes. See below.
GypsyWomyn38421.4395833333Please see below, I posted twice by mistake.GypsyWomyn38420.6096064815[quote]What would have happen if Franklin Roosevelt didn’t hang a key form his kite???? [/quote]
Vikki, were you being fascetious about Franklin Roosevelt?
Cuz I don't know what Benjamin Franklin would be thinking right now?
I absolutely agree with you, csr19us ....such arrogance to think we've conquered nature! And "man not on the brink of extinction," you must be kidding? Not just a flaw in man's thinking, but a HUGE problem man IS facing.
I have so many thoughts about a reply on this, but unfortunately, today I really can NOT find any words, none. If that's due to the meds I just started on...I prefer not to take them, thank you very much.
I will say, tho, that I believe some "defects" can be changed (challenged) by re-learning (or learning for the first time). And re-teaching...What about the person who's told they'll never be able to walk again because of a spinal injury? There are those that sucumb to that conclusion and never even try. Then there's the one who tries, practices, doesn't give up, believe they will walk again...and many do! They re-taught themselves, probably using another route from the brain to their legs.
I truly believe we can learn and refine skills in changing behavioral, emotional, and thinking patterns associated with problems in living that cause misery and distress by learning new habits. Some of the negative ADHD symptoms! If I knew how to achieve these goals at a much younger age, I may have been able to keep jobs, keep friends, been a little happier. And I've recently been taught these skills, now it's just a matter of practice, practice, practice. I realize it's not easy, in fact it's downright difficult, but I believe it CAN be done. A little at a time. Babysteps. If meds can assist us in regulating our emotions, why not behavioral skills designed to help. I admit being able to focus better makes this easier. And if meds help with that initial focus, good! But I'll still need to practice focusing, even on meds, focusing on the changes I want to make.
Oh, oh, looks like I've found some words. (Not that they make sense to anyone else but me.) Better leave before I end up telling you everything I was taught. Bye!
GypsyWomyn38421.4403356481
[QUOTE=GypsyWomyn]And "man not on the brink of extinction," you must be kidding? Not just a flaw in man's thinking, but a HUGE problem man IS facing.
[/QUOTE]
Man may be facing huge problems, but we've a world population of - what, 7 billion? That is hardly the verge of extinction, especially when in the context of evolution. When the population is down to just a handful, any gene mutation will have a chance to spread to the whole of the population in a relatively short time - and if the mutation is beneficial it may be sufficient to enable the species to recover. In a world of 7 billion that is unlikely to happen.
As to the 'huge problems', even assuming the doomsayers are all correct, and ozone depletion, co2 levels, the natural resources all get used up, Yellowstone Park explodes and we get T-boned by an asteroid - oh yes, and bird flu - all do their worst, it's unlikely to be the end of mankind. Civilization may end, but people have survived - no, thrived - everywhere from the deserts of Africa to the Arctic wastes. Mankind is very hardy.
All in my humble opinion, of course
Mark -
I stand corrected, Mark. Not extinction, but damn near close. BOOM! GAG. WHISH!
A whole lot of us gone!
And I do believe nature is going conquer us if $$ doesn't stop being more important than our environment. And THEN, perhaps, we may even experience evolution again, so we don't go extinct. Am I making sense at all?
GypsyWomyn38420.6484490741Hmmm, if people of similar intellectual level have a tendency to breed with each other........ Well, at least in this country it seems that way, with a huge number of offspring being produced by those with lower educational levels, and relatively few offspring produced by couples with two relatively intellectual parents. Seems maybe we are breeding a few brilliant people to lead the relatively ignorant masses??? Continued evolution in our society???? There are factors other than physical separation that can lead to divergence of populations. Of course there is enough gene flow between the 2 groups to prevent speciation though. Just rambling, I'm probably full of %^$&
Seriously though, I have read that changes in brain function can be induced by stress. This is not really surprising, cells are always repairing and maintaining themselves and can adapt somewhat by producing different numbers of receptors on their surface (particulary true for new developing cells), and by producing different amounts of transmitters. Say, just for the sake of argument that a period of stress (any type, oxygen deprivation, nutrient lack, extreme emotional stress) during early development changed the brain to function more like an ADHD person. That would mean that children born in periods of war, famine, or other adversity would be more likely to exhibit ADHD traits and there would be pretty useful to them under those conditions. In conditions of relative prosperity there would be fewer people with ADHD traits. It's nothing new, just a means of adapting to the current environment?? Again, just that old busy brain cranking out whatever
Don't you think it's arrogant to think that we have "conquered" nature????? OMG! Come on! That is the biggest flaw we humans may have... our ego telling us we've conquered this, or that.
(I realize that was probably meant more as a joke, but I had to spill that rhetorical nugget of info!) Facetious not on purpose. just sorta happened. please check out my receint rant Train you brain I agree. Drugs I believe quit working eventually. As we have seen with our son therapies to train work better. I see to many add/adhd pateints on to many drugs. Kids mostley. America is a pop your pill population.The trainings do what they say train low areas. Try them school should be helping in these areas Speech, Ot, Pt if child qualifies. You must hound them for what you want.They don't give it voluntarally because of money I believe.We have had to this when it comes to the school. Forget there comments. You are doing what's in your child's best interest and legal rights.These kids though should receive SSi in my opinion because expensive raising a special needs child.We all don't have that money.Our kids loose out when we can't afford the best for them.We can't give somethings we aren't able to give. I herd the best you can give a child is your time and attention.