Ok so I broke down and quit lurking. | ADHD Information

I agree with Floofthegoof i was terrified when I first came around young kids on medications. My daughter was screened last year and they let her fall between the cracks now in Kindergarden they diagnosed her with ADHD in November. I am against medications only because they scare me i worry about her thinking " I need a pill to think" and i also worry about side effects. What will happen 20 years from now from being on medications as a child. I am seeing a Psychologist on the 29 th for her therapy to teach her how to cope. I was told the psychologist decides if she should be on something. But i am mellowing now after reading good stories and when i have read Sonia's posts how it felt when her parents would not help her it broke my heart. I want what is best for my girl and I love her as she is. Medicating is a hard decision but if it has to occur it will be for my daughters benefits not society. I am trying to keep her off as long as possible.

It breaks my heart to see her have difficulty staying focused to get dressed or when with other kids she is a loner. Her father survived so we will see.

SonyaH: In awnswer to your question: Yes, adhd alone can cause a toddler to be a danger to himself. [my opinion]. Supportive examples that come to mind are tuning out parental precautions/screams of panic about fire/electricity/cars. Inattentively walking into sharp corners/glass/holes/… Hyperfocused experimentation beyond one’s chronological age: My self at age 3 attempting to disassemble a gas stove for example. If nothing else, kids who constantly run: sometimes run into danger and physics says faster travel = harder impact.

gearhead

< =""> gosh, i never realized it could be that bad...My father disasembled a mortar grenade when he was 3.... you just don't let your kids into a ammunation storage [QUOTE=gearhead]

gearhead

< =""> [/QUOTE]

Woah woah woah! Parents, help me out here. This is normal. I have seen this with every kid I know under 3. That is NOT adhd.

uh oh, i smell a debate coming on.... sonya_h38460.5906828704 I wish that when my teachers in elementary schools suggested that my parents get me tested for ADHD (I got good grades back then but I was the worst troublemaker).
I wish they wouldn't have said "She's too smart to have a learning disability. She just wants more attention."
If I had been sent to a psychiatrist and gotten medication back then, school might not have been as awful as it was, loads of problems caused my my inability to concentrate/impulsivity might not have happened....

Instead of sending me to a psychiatrist and getting the right medication, I was sent out of class just about every day to a school social worker or to the principal's office. This meant that when other kids were learning, I was playing with Gak or Silly putty in an office with a woman whose job was mostly to make sure that I was not a disruption in a classroom. With the proper medication, this might have been different.

And FLOOF- It;s not just a matter of adhd preventing one from not living up to SOCIETY's potential...If society praised underachievers, and I agreed with society and thought that underachievers were really swell, I would STILL wish my family medicated me because of the BOREDOM and FRUSTRATION adhd causes me - that I can sit and stare at books that I want to read, yet not be able to focus on them, that I want to hold conversations with friends, but I wind up alienating them by not listening to what they have to say- and then I have to make new friends to alienate, that things that I think would be fun barely cause enjoyment becasause my mind is floating while the thing is going on...that instead of doing a project I am interested in (I'm designing a game level for an RPG for fun), I am pushing everything off because I am NOT medicated and my brain gets tired and I need CONSTANT breaks from anything that requires sustained attention....

I just wish that before everything in my life was a tornado swirling so incontrollably that I HAD to get treatment or else I would be homeless and sick and unemployed and friendless and unable to enjoy things because I cant pay attention to them, someone- a parent- would have stepped in and said-

you know, maybe that time in first grade when she glued together all the teachers editions...or the time in kindergarden when she cursed out her principal, or the time in 3rd grade when she spray painted the house...
The times she was kicked out of summer camps- even ones that she loved,

There was a problem beyond attention-seeking- a problem that might have been fixed with MEDICAL HELP before getting out of control.

GarbagePailKid38460.6058217593

Wow,

I am amazed and impressed with the outpouring of information from my first measly little post. Who would have thought it could stir up so much controversy.

I will begin by saying this. (no animosity intended) I was actually asking the questions I did about myself. Yes I am ADHD. Yes I want to improve my life and my ability to be proactive in it. No I am not yet happy with the effects of the drugs. My question was is it normal for this to be a "process" rather than something I will notice immediately. I have had a more task focused approach but I still feel drifty and lost in the am. And the negativity that has accompanied the Adderall (taking Wellbutrin to counteract) Has been disturbing. So does this take a while to acclimate? Are the negatives just issues that have been there but now I get the lovely ability to FOCUS on them stronger? Or will teh wellbutrin eventually squash that line of thinking so that I may more clearly see the effects of the adderall.

And to all who have said anything. I stay home with my kids...2 of which have displayed complete ADHD symptoms and have only chosen to medicate one of my kids. Not because he was the "hyper " one. He is the one who can't stay focused on his tasks. Many long troubling hours spent to make a decision that I would make a hundred times faster if I could have seen the results.

So anyway ...all that aside...could I trouble yous guys for some input to my initial question....Thanks in advance...

All toddlers immediately go for the absolute most dangerous thing. Try stepping into a non-babyproofed house with your toddler for a few minutes and for god sakes don't blink! Right to the litterbox! Cat poop....going in... MOUTH! ....STOP! I really don't know how they can survive even with constant supervision. Floofthegoof: The world is not baby/toddler/child/adult proof. I never said it was. I also did not say that normy toddlers don't try to stick forks into wall sockets. What was at least implied bymy post was that ADD/ADHD can spin those situations up to a more dangerous level.

Also, eating cat poop is not that bad. Neither is chowing down on live snails. Hopefully I won't say ALL toddlers or ALL anything will.... You might consider using less global/absolute modifiers, it tends to get peoples dander up.

< =""> [QUOTE=fourpackdad]

IS this a normal adjustment period that I am experiencing. Something that I have to allow the time to stabilize. I know that I am able to focus better than I was before, but it seems that without direction I tend to focus on negatives.

[/QUOTE]

I have found adderall to be helpful in getting things done, but I was never able to shake the side effects. I could live with the noticable side effects, but I really don't like the considerably high blood pressure it caused. That's a bad long term situation I think, therefore I take it sparingly.
[QUOTE=fourpackdad]

No I am not yet happy with the effects of the drugs. My question was is it normal for this to be a "process" rather than something I will notice immediately. I have had a more task focused approach but I still feel drifty and lost in the am. And the negativity that has accompanied the Adderall (taking Wellbutrin to counteract) Has been disturbing. So does this take a while to acclimate? Are the negatives just issues that have been there but now I get the lovely ability to FOCUS on them stronger? Or will teh wellbutrin eventually squash that line of thinking so that I may more clearly see the effects of the adderall.

[/QUOTE]

You are welcome. Thanks for sparking this thread whether intentional or not.

I personally am taking Welbutrin, Dexedrine, Neurontin and Lactaid. It has taken many years to come up with this particular mix and it is still subject to modification. I urge you to give a fair trial to your current regimen or any future one that holds promise. It is very difficult to be patient with these things (med treatment) but it is a serious and very complex undertaking.

Not to scare you but to inform you of my personal medicinal journey. I've legitimatly taken:

Welbutrin/Bupropion at 4 different dosing levels/regimens
Dexidrine Spansules and Tablets at numerous levels
Ritalin
Adderal
Strattera
Celexa
Effexor
Prozac
Trazadone/Desyrel
Neurontin/Gabapentin
ask me--I might have forgotten one.

and don't forget the
Omega 3 Fatty Acids
dietary regimens
various straws, grasses, teas,
extracts and infusions.

Shoot, I'd apply poultices if I thought that might help.

Note that the above excludes all the non-legal and non-sensical things I
used before knowing I had ADD.

gearhead

"Smile long enough and you might believe it."

< ="">

floofthegoof, this is not normal. Yes, toddlers do test limits and experiment with what they can do physically. A normal toddler will learn when they try something that doesn't work. They also will listen to their parents although they might not always comply. The difference is with some ADHD kids who do not even acknowledge their parents warnings about dangers most times are so intent on what they want that they actually don't even hear the parent. In fact if held struggle more to get to what they want. These kids don't learn from their mistakes even when they are injured because they are so impulsive and have a compulsion to be on the move constantly.

In one day I caught my son (not even a toddler but 6 or 7 at the time) and should have know better. Hanging from the 2nd story railing in our entry way trying to reach a balloon that had floated up to the ceiling, then about 20 minutes later he had moved a breakfast bar stool into the living room and was standing on a stool on top of that trying to unwrap the same balloon from the ceiling fan that was turned on. He has been told repeatedly that he is not to turn on the ceiling fans. His sisters and his bedrooms are really hot in the summer despite the air conditioning. My husband and I have discussed putting ceiling fans in their rooms that have slanted vaulted ceilings. He is now 9 and we are still reluctant to do so even though he is medicated because we are afraid he will try to jump from his top bunk bed onto the fan. For more than a year when he was 4 he tried to figure out how to fly and is still fascinated with the idea. We still cannot trust his judgement.

flooftheloof, you are 100% right in saying that there are bad parents out there and they should look at themselves too when searching for the cause of their kids "issues". i had a very verbal and emotionally abusive childhood and i did act out but instead of passing that on to my kids, i do all i can not to become my mom. i have 4 kids and only my 11yo is adhd, the other 3 are "normal". i'll be the 1st to admit that i'm not the best of moms and i have said things that i shouldn't have but i get up each morning and i do the best job i know how to do. i don't think it is my parenting skills that made my son the way he is, cause if that was the case then i would have 4 adhd kids to chase after everyday. he's acted the same whether he's was at home, school or any other persons house, thats why he wasn't welcome anywhere. i am a stay at home mom, so i am the only one (and husband) that raises these kids. i did work in a daycare for almost 2yrs and he was there with me, and you could see that he was "different" from the rest of the kids there. i hope you don't feel as though i'm attacking you, if thats how i come across then i'm sorry. i haven't taken anything that you've said personal, you have a right to express your opinion and thats all i want to do also.

Oops, guess I spent to much time typing my reply.

Hi fourpackdad I think Gearhead gave you a very good and detailed answer. My only additional comment is from my perspective. I am currently taking Adderall XR 30 mg. I started at 15 mg and have worked up the dose on 3 different occasions. Sometime I have noticed no difference at all. Thankfully I have not experienced the depressive symptoms you have reported. I have asked my psychiatrist about adding another medication to the mix be he isn't convinced that we are at the right dosage of Adderall XR yet. I have been on meds since August of 2004. I am willing to work on this to get it right because I have seen improvement just not as much as I've hoped. I have also experienced very little side effects so far. I have heard from others that some doctors find a certain medication they like and it take a lot to get them to try something else if it isn't working well. Others are reluctant to try newer meds. Kind of like when a new model automobile comes out. Let someone else find out what is wrong with it before you give it a try.

The short answer is yes it is trial and error.

FLOOF, you're right again, it is normal toddler behavior, but adhd kids take it to the extreme. i'm only speaking about my experience, i don't know what other parents are dealing with but when my son was little and before meds, it was constantly non stop with him, from the time he got out of bed till the fights to get him to bed he was all over the place. yes, the things he did could be concidered normal, but "normal" kids will learn that "if i do this, then this will happen". "normal" toddlers have a certain amount of impulse control, my son didn't, if it burnt him the first time he'd still go back a second or a third time. he didn't have the ablility to stop and think about what he was doing or if he was going to get hurt or hurt someone else. whenever he would stop running and jumping all over the place then he would be destroying whatever was close to him. he didn't want to destroy things he couldn't help it. i do have 3 others besides him and none of them came even close to having the energy or lack of control that he had.

sonya_h, I was not jumping an the defensive. Just wanted to make on observation to you and several other poster on this thread that all said they wouldn't medicate a toddler. I don't blame you for trying to get information, in fact I commend you for it. I was just trying to make the point that it is sometimes hard for parents to put into words what it actually is to live with some of these kids. I am highly verbal myself and actually made an error stating that I am only the inattentive type as I am diagnosed mixed type. I feel that I can usually get my point across pretty well. I sometimes have a hard time adequately explaining my childrens behavior and even my own when it comes to ADHD. Especially from people who haven't experienced it. They tend to generalize remarks. They don't understand to the extreme to which some of these behaviours can escalate. My intention was only to say, OK, ask the question. If you don't feel you got an adequate response ask it again. Just don't dismiss a parents choice by saying I wouldn't whatever the topic is. Please don't take this as an attack either I'm sure you didn't intend to dismiss these parents choices. But that is how your and others statements appear in this instance, at least to me. I just think we should be more understanding of each other because goodness knows we certainly don't get it from outside.

gettingagrip38460.5503703704

Well I am going to put my 2 cents in here. Floofthegoof I am also the inattentive type of ADHD. I would have loved to have had the opportunity to really have taken advantage of what school had to offer. Instead, luckily for me I am fairly intelligent, I was able to just coast through school. Doing as little as possible to get by and looking forward to the day when I didn't have to hear about living up to my potential. That brings up your comments about how kids should just be left alone to get by as they can. What I see in your posts is that you want society to change so that kids aren't expected to achieve goals in school. That is not going to happen! So, you think we should just leave kids to their own devices and be damned with their self esteem because society shouldn't expect anything from them.

I medicate my 9 year old son (since he was 7) because I could see what ADHD was doing to his ability to learn and in turn how that was affecting his self esteem and relationships. Having been there myself I couldn't let him go through the things I had. I worked very closely with his doctor and my son to get the right medications and dosages. I did not want a zombie. I believe that ADHD zombie expression comes from the days when there was only Ritalin and they didn't have a very wide array of dosages available. Back in the begining alot of kids were reduced to zombie states. That has all changed now. There are many med choices and dosage options. Sometimes a combination of meds is needed to treat all the symptoms. I talk with my son constantly about how he feels and I also observe his behaviors myself. If I am going to medicate my son I certainly am responsible to make sure he is getting the right meds and dosages. Not only has his school performance improved but he works hard at recognizing his own behaviors and tries really hard to overcome them. I also have him working with a psychologist to this end. I am hoping that unlike me he can do whatever it is he wants to do as an adult and is not lead into an adult life that is just getting its direction from whatever circumstance lead to. I am also taking the same medication now (started last year at 47) so I do know how he feels.

One other quick comment on the mini thread in here about medicating toddlers. My son is of the hyper sort. Luckily for me his hyperness mostly comes in the form of non stop talking. There are toddlers that are so hyper that they cannot be trusted to be safe for even 1 second of unsupervised activity. I had to on occasion take my son into the bathroom when I needed to pee so I could keep an eye on him. I know parents especially parents with more than one child who have a really hard time with these kids in dangerous situations such a parking lots where the kids will just dart out into traffic. I know it seems young but unless you are the parent you need to give them the benefit of the doubt that they know what they are doing. I know you feel that if I didn't have to medicate I wouldn't is not a good answer. Sometimes it is hard to put into words what the actual situation is. What is the old saying "Judge not lest you be judged." or was it "Let he that is without guilt throw the first stone.".

An interesting discussion but let's be kind to each other. There are to many out there ready to rip us apart because they don't even believe in ADHD. If they could only walk in our shoes.

Sorry, hope I didn't sound like I was preaching. I guess that is the old Catholic school girl in me.

ps I am no longer a Catholic.

[QUOTE=gettingagrip]

What is the old saying "Judge not lest you be judged." or was it "Let he that is without guilt throw the first stone....

[/QUOTE]

that was me...

when i posted that post about toddlers, it was out of sheer curiosity...i am pregnant, and both my husband and I both have ad/hd, so i was a little worried about this...

that is what i said, that the only way that I could really see medicating a toddler is because he may be a danger to himself., and i asked the question, "can ad/hd alone cause a toddler to be a danger to himself?"...i asked that question because I did not know the answer and I just wondered...

since when is asking questions judging?

Every time I ask that question, I get "believe me, if i didn't have to I wouldn't", and "we need to stop judging"... I was on a mini research mission, for the future...what does it take to just get a simple answer to a simple question around here without people jumping on the defense??

sonya_h38460.5355671296 [QUOTE=sonya_h]

"can ad/hd alone cause a toddler to be a danger to himself?"

[/QUOTE]

I've known quite a few toddlers, and I get the impression that *all* toddlers are a danger to themselves, so you really can't use that as a diagnosis either lol.

They haven't started giving homework to toddlers have they? Stop the madness!
[QUOTE=ditzychick

I was referring to the fact that he doesn't have any children suffering from the disorder. The discussion that I was referring to was medicating a "school aged" child. I know that he suffered from it, and obviously, the severity of it as a child was managable, while others children's cases are hard to manage.

[/QUOTE]

No he doesn't have any children suffering from this disorder but he could be showing us what one of our kids might say 20 years from now. I guess also I should clear up, my daughters ADHD is mild compared to what I have heard from others on this site. I don't agree 100% with Floof where I think he doesn't feel ANY child should be medicated. I'm just wondering about the ones that can function, are not a danger to themselves, don't disrupt the class etc.

I don't know Floof it seems as though I'm the only one that wants to hear what you have to say. PM me.

why can't we agree to disagree? i mean i don't believe there are any "right" answers here...

the decision to medicate children is usually based on the severity of the ad/hd, and on individual/familial choice and preference, and on the child's ability to handle meds, which is also depends on each individual child.

floof does not have children, perhaps one day he will have some, and he has the choice to choose not to medicate...hopefully, if his kids have severe ad/hd, there will be other options available to help them cope. if not, maybe the world will be more tolerable of ad/hd by the time they come around...perhaps one day floof will change his opinions....

it's no need to get bent out of shape..

we are all different, even though most of do have ad/hd...

the best thing each of us can do, is to try to do what's right for each one of us....we should not try to control other people's decisions.

parenting is a learning experience, and I just really hope if floof does have kids, then he will keep an open mind. All of us should keep an open mind, whether we believe in the decision to medicate or not.

i believe that is the best thing--hold fast to what you believe, but accept the fact that perhaps there are other possible solutions....you know?

i wish i my parents had kept an open mind to ad/hd, i think that that, by far, is the most important thing.

sonya_h38460.4883680556I guess alot of it depends on the 'H' in the ADHD. In my case, being the inattentive type, I would drift off into another world and wouldn't even be noticed in school until report card time when all hell would break loose. Really disruptive behavior changes the equation perhaps. It may be that we are dealing with two very different 'disorders', if you will. I've often wondered about that.

I've tried 4 different ADD meds, I know their limitations in terms of effectiveness for my particular manifestation of ADD. I've also seen the medical establishment do some flip-flopping regarding the percieved safety of the meds I took. I really get the feeling that if I had started Cylert at age nine or so, I'd be in a similar situation that I am now, maybe making 10k a year more, except hospitalized waiting in line for a liver transplant.

It would take some real hutzpah for me to criticise anyone's parenting, but I saw a news show(20/20? 60 minutes? can't remember) one time that really got me thinking. Maybe some of you have seen it. This woman was at her wits end because her two adopted sons were completely unmanageable and violent. It was obvious that she loved them and was willing to do anything to help them. The kids would be sent to a psychiatric hospital, act like normal kids, and when they were sent home it would be ok for a while, but then they would start acting up again, getting in trouble at school etc. So the news show offered to place cameras in the home to see if anything unusual could be spotted with constant surveillance. The woman agreed to this, because she was willing to try anything to get to the bottom of this problem. The result of this action was absolutely shocking. It became very clear that these kids lived under this Saddam Hussein like tyranny, where punishment was completely arbitrary. These kids couldn't make a move without viscious verbal threats and humiliation hurled against them of the worst kind. The woman was seen repeatedly screaming at these kids that they were going to be sent to foster care if they didn't do whatever. They would be crying desparately "No, we love you please don't send us away!", and the mother wouldn't let up, repeating the threats, even as far as pretending to pick up the phone to make the 'final phonecall'. It was twisted! It was like it gave her some kind of thrill. These kids were diagnosed with everything under the sun, bipolar, ADHD, depression you name it. It was notable that whenever they were sent away, they were *fine*! After the program was aired, the woman was arrested and charged with child abuse and they took her kids away!

The thing I found most surprising, was that the woman had no idea what she was doing to her kids. She did it all on camera! I felt very sorry for her, because that's gotta be a parents worst nightmare, to suddenly learn that all of your kids severe problems are because of you and your bad parenting! Before the cameras were placed, nobody would have dreamed to accuse her of abuse, because she really worked her ass off to try to help these kids. Her intentions were honest and good, but it turned out that she had nothing to offer as a parent. Talk about a wake up call from hell.

I'm not a parent, but I think I can say that there are some bad parents out there who don't know they are bad parents. Are you doing everything you can to *control* your kids behavior, or are you doing everything you can to teach them and set an example for them? Big difference! Are you even home? Who's parenting your kids?

Are you looking at *everything*, including you, before medicating?

I don't agree with you Rich, but you argue your case like a gentleman.

Mark -

[QUOTE=Mark Goode]

I don't agree with you Rich, but you argue your case like a gentleman.

Mark -

[/QUOTE]

Thanks Mark, and what do you mean it's 'too late' for you? Too late to be a pop star? Well, maybe. But your pipe colleciton makes me want to take up smoking! :D

[QUOTE=floofthegoof]
Thanks Mark, and what do you mean it's 'too late' for you? Too late to be a pop star?[/QUOTE]

Pop star? I bought a guitar once... broke my heart when I discovered I couldn't play it... No, not a pop star - what I mean is that the damage has been done now. The past thirty-odd years when I should have been getting an education, building a career, saving for my dotage etc. have gone now. Even if I was to be miraculously cured tomorrow, I would still not have the time (for example) to get my PHD in rocket science, or build an investment for my old age - when I'm old I'm going to have to resort to mugging or something.

[QUOTE] But your pipe colleciton makes me want to take up smoking! :D
[/QUOTE]

Nicotene's good for ADHD, and a pipe is not as bad for your health as cigarettes (you don't inhale, and there are no added chemicals in the tobacco).

Mark -

Great posts guys! This has to be the longest topic ever. I have made a serious effort to read, absorb and consider every one of your stories. Thanks for sharing.

I think we will have to agree to disagree a little on this one. I think it is a matter of every child on an individual basis. I fully believe that children should be allowed to be children.

Childhood is a precious, magical and wonderful time. Children should be allowed to be free from the burdens of adult knowledge and understanding. They should be allowed to discover the world around them without fear or pain.

I do also fully support every parent on this board's decision to medicate their children. You all sound like intelligent, caring parents who love your children and want them to be able to have a happy and fulfilled life. You all sound like you have considered the options carefully for your particular situation.

I agree with Floof on some points, but I definitely do NOT agree with the comment that you leave school at 18 and the world is your oyster. Perhaps he means that the world is a jar of oyster sauce, as opposed to a freshly shucked one, containing a beautiful pearl.

As others said earlier, ADD can cut a person off from many the opportunities of happiness that life can bring and leave you with no self-esteem, unemployment, no money, no security, no relationships, no friends. The list goes on.

I personally am a very academically inclined person, I knew since I was a little girl that I wanted to go to university, but I left high school with such a pathetic leaving mark that I was only just able to get into Arts (the course with the lowest entrance mark).

My family fully expected someone of my intelligence and academic enthusiasm to get into any course I wanted and do anything I wanted with my life. As it was, I barely got into university at all.

I don't wish to start an argument that everyone should be able to get A's in everything. Some people are not that way inclined, but for me, I did not leave school brimming with opportunity and hope for the future, I left with seriously limited options, and a well grounded fear that the future was not going to hold much for me at all unless I figured out what the hell was wrong with me.

There is no reason I can see except for having undiagnosed ADD that many of the kids from my school are doing useful, successful things and building a future for themselves while I have been on and off unemployment benefit for the last 2 years , because I can't hold down a job for more than 6 weeks and I have to live with my mother because I have no money.

Whatever future potential a child has I think we should be respectful of a parent's desire to make a choice. Let's not make generalisations. There are some very bad parents out there, but I doubt any of them are on this board.

My parents made some good and bad decisions with me, but I know how seriously they researched and considered their options, and how much time and money they spent trying to help me. I feel so sorry for them now, they feel guilty that they tried so hard, but never realised my problems were due to ADD.

Nevertheless, I am actually quite happy. Must be that old ADD resilience and ability to bounce back that so many of you seem to have.

eliza38460.8113425926Whoops, and I'll forgive you all if you don't read half the last post, was a bit long, sorry! Whoa, I never tried to pass off my own experiences as objective facts for all AD/HDers. I never claimed to be the bearer of absolute truth. All I did was share my experiences which is the purpose of this board. You are free to agree or disagree. Stop accusing me of sh*t that I didn't do.

You don't have to convince me about the virtues of scientific research. Like I said before, science is great. All I'm saying is that there is more to life than scientific research and making the point that meds are not a magic solution to our problems.

Science provides us with great knowledge that individuals stories and anecdotes can't. Likewise, individual perspectives provide us insight that a scientific study would not be able to provide. I happen to think that both are valuable and I try to take a balanced view on life.

There is no need for you to tell anyone to walk the plank. Floof stated his case politely. He made some points that I like and there are some things he said that I didn't agree with. Either way, it was rude for you to dismiss a member's comments as "garbage".

True, he didn't post any scientific evidence supporting the existence of brain quakes but you didn't post any scientific studies that disprove their existence either so you shouldn't be passing yourself off as Ms./Mr. Objective Woman/Man in this thread.

You don't have the right to insult someone just because they dare to disagree with you. Oh the horror! You are not the queen/king of the message boards. There is no need to be judgemental just because you don't agree with someone. We are all here to support each other. I said several times that I support your quest to find scientific research. At the very least you could be more respectful to people who try to find other ways to deal with their problems. No, you don't have to agree, just be more open-minded and respectful. We are all in the same boat so we should try to be more supportive instead of making rude remarks.

scarygreengiant38461.9366782407 [QUOTE=buccaneer]

Floofthegoof…I am going to have to sentence you to be the first to walk the plank. Put on this blindfold, the sharks are already circling. The only way you can save your bacon, is to show the research, or studies to support your assertions (like meds being and I quote: “an unnecessary risk”, or recommending that people “should try their children’s medication for a week”, or showing “ADD to be a personality type” or medication “wearing out your body” or parents and physicians being unable/incompetent to deal with their children’s ADHD requirements or a “dangerous dynamic” parental care of their ADHD children creates or…last but not least… the existence of “brain quakes”).

Upon receipt of your list of references, I promise to exonerate you, remove your blindfold and give you the nautical title of “Rear Admiral in charge of Proven Facts”. [/QUOTE]

Not saying that anyone is absolutely right or wrong, but really, who here is going to have time to do all that research? Finding that stuff would be quite a chore even for non-ADHD people. We have daily lives PLUS AD/HD problems to deal with. You of all people should know how hard it is for us AD/HD folks to get organized and get stuff done. I appreciate research but I don't expect every member to provide a list of references for every message they post on here. That would be great but totally unrealistic. Besdies, you haven't exactly done that yourself.

What's that I see in the distance? Oooh look! It's a pot and a kettle.

Okay, I'll give you credit. At least you're gutsy enough to say you're arrogant.

scarygreengiant38461.9325347222SGG,

Walking the plank is a humourous play on the notion of being a buccaneer (searching for the treasure of well researched ADD facts!

). I truly hope you are not that humourless and self-aggrandizing as to take "walking the virtual plank" seriously???.

It seems as though you have personalized my comments and have deliberately decided to ignore the general gist of what I said and instead misinterpret the minutae out of context. My advice is...don't take it so personally and seriously.

To conclude...of course no-one expects you to quote research every time you make a statement...what a pedantic conclusion...rather, when someone repeatedly make baseless (i.e. wrong) assertions about ADD, then the Buccaneer will appear from the mists...armed to the teeth (with facts, research, and of course his trusty one-legged parrot) ready to board, take no prisoners and show no mercy until he discovers where the treasure is hidden!

So long, me heartie...see you at the next port of call.

lol!

9 pages of bickery...

"Fascinating.." - Spock

**snicker** he said one-leg parrot

Glad we are all having fun!!!

Mark G...thanks for understanding what I wanted to achieve. I could not have expressed my intentions better (in fact I didn’t LOL)!

SGG...Yes I am often tactless and arrogant (among my many other failings *smile*) but I stand by my comments. I will gladly retract anything I state where I am wrong or there is evidence to the contrary. Such as thanking Danielsmom for her correction about neurological vs biochemical (my mistake!).

Anecdotal stories are great, wonderful and part of the tremendous appeal of this board especially given that ADDers have a unique manner of experiencing the world. However, please don’t pass your subjective experience off as objective facts otherwise I will be forced to make you walk the plank (it’s either that or 50 virtual lashes with my cat ‘o nine! LOL).

It’s not that the guys (or girls!) wear white lab coats that allows our understanding and treatment of ADD to progress, it is because their peer reviewed, double blind, placebo controlled studies ensure; that we build explanatory models to test our hypotheses against, that we don’t confuse cause and effect, that we ensure repeatable results…in short so that we use the benefit of scientific research to help us understand and treat ADHD and not a hocus pocus mishmash of opinions to misinform people.

“And ladies and gentlemen of the jury, that concludes my argument. I urge you to find in favour of scientific facts rather than conjecture, so that ADD can move beyond the myths and misunderstandings that still surround it”.

Upon receipt of your list of references, I promise to exonerate you, remove your blindfold and give you the nautical title of “Rear Admiral in charge of Proven Facts”.

I often hear the stories from parents regarding the abrupt improvements in confidence etc., but I'm still skeptical. We don't get our self image from how we actually are, we get it from how we think others perceive us. If a child is suddenly getting lavished with praise and attention, his self image is going to improve. If he is told how he's just not living up to expectations, it will decline. The truth of the matter is not really part of the equation. Perhaps if his strengths were praised, and his weakness were put in a proper perspective, you could get the same result?

I feel that ADD is not a disorder so much as a personality type with it's own advantages and disadvantages. I think it can be cultivated so that a person can be aware of the obstacles without making them the main focus. Parents want their kids to acheive great things, but really the only necessary ingredient to happiness is just being a good person.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I not comfortable with giving the medicine to kids. I think kids should just be kids and not slave robots. I think meds should be taken when they are really needed, and kids just don't/shouldn't have that kind of responsibility. Being a kid is learning time, and just because they aren't learning exactly what they are told to learn, doesn't mean they are learning any less than anyone else, and maybe they are actually learning more.

I also feel strongly that these drugs will shorten your life. It is a trade-off between the quality of your life and the length of it. My body is wearing out from these drugs, I can feel it. It scares me to think what condition I'd be in mentally and physically if I was forced to take them from a young age.
Although I do agree with you completely in principle. I think as you said it is a case by case basis. For my son it is the best thing. He is a gifted and bright young man who had no physical way to live up to his mental potential. I tried the diet changes and the early rising exercise to stimulate a change but no of it was effective. His life has changed dramatically since the taking of teh meds. No longer feeling like he was inaddequate and a disappointment to those around him. He is gaining confidence and surity everyday. My big fear was making him "robotic" as you said but that has not been the case he is still his arguing defiant and questioning self. But with the caveat that now he does so appropriately and with thought out arguments not just for the sake of arguing. He will always defy my authority and that is fine. Be free, question, require more info, don't settle...but do it with a purpose and you will succeed. As I have always told my children. You will rarely get in trouble for doing more than asked but almost always get in trouble for doing less. This decision we painstakingly made has allowed him to do just that and remain himself. I am hopeful taht this will not be a lifelong process of drugs to succeed but we will peridically reassess and make our decisions based on the time and situation. Thanks for your comments and concerns. It never hurts to hear others opinions.

Hello to all,

I will try to keep this as abbreviated as possible as I know we all have other thoughts to get to...what dear? yes I will get milk at the store... ok so as I was saying then the doctor says...hey wait I haven't started yet. Hmmmm maybe these doctors are RIGHT !!!

OK all joking aside I am a 37 yr old stay at home father of 4. That is a mouthful. My oldest(7) son was recently diagnosed with ADHD and started on a wonderful regimen of 36mg Concerta daily. WOW !!! unbelievable improvement. Immediately went from the funny kid who always talked so much he got in trouble and never ever finished an assignment to the teachers favorite kid finishing all work and focusing extremely well. I can not put into words how wonderful that is. His teacher now stops me daily to tell me his wonderful deeds of the day whether helping others or requesting to finish an earlier assignment. He has been transformed.

It was a long struggle as we were hesitant to go the drug route for the past year. But after trying everything we could we are pleased as punch at the results we now get.

So why did I finally post ?

Well through all of this I myself had to come to grips with my own ADHD troubles that have plagued my life. The doctor examining my son asked how long I was ADHD and I said "why do you ask?" her reply and my wifes was stunned looks and the jaw dropping "Surely you realize you are ADHD? Right?" "well, uh, hey is that a bird in the window?"

So to cut to the meat of it. My mother was told when I was 6 to get me on Ritalin and keep me there but stubborn country ways and maybe a bit of selfish pride kept that from happening. So go to school, skip first grade in search of more challenges to keep my mind busy, no help. Second grade for four weeks and then straight to third, that is when I decided I was done with school. It held nothing for me. Years of being the funny kid and the talker and the bane of all teachers followed "but you are so incredibly smart, you have so much potential, why are you so lazy?" Skip ahead and somehow skating through to HS where I am 2 yrs younger and much much smaller than all around me. Finish HS after the senior yr. NO diploma.....awww. So GED time....100 percent not one questioned missed, shows how lazy I was right. Skipping from job to job and hobby to hobby all my life. Hyperfocusing on one thing until I used it dry and then on to another. Never staying long enough to really succeed. Whew...Are you glad this is abbreviated? Well I guess in a way it is for all of us.

Personal relationships are always teh same...fun, stress free, and light...until there is trouble then the ADHD kicks in and the calm discussion turns to a mountainous wave of verbage on my part of tangents and scattered topics that in my montage mind all are connected and make perfect sense. To those around us are confusing agressive attacks that have no base and no solid point. Does that sound familiar?

Well that for brevity purposes brings us back to today. I am starting on my own "brain pill" (sons word). Doc said Adderal XR 20mg once a day. After 3 days I was starting to feel like there might be something to this as I was more, hmm, motivated? to accomplish something that day. But then came teh CRASH. An unwieldy slide into depression and self doubt and anger and lothing. Scary. Doc says take it again tomorrow and see where we are. Ok. So next day same thing early motivation, stronger this time, followed by deep depression, worse this time. Scary and unnerving. So I stop taking the adderal and go back to the doc. They start me on WEllbutrin to counter the depressive effect of Adderal and then start a week later back on the Adderal at a higher dose as my doc is convinced my dose is still too low. WEll the combo seems to be working OK. No great motivational changes yet but I do seem to be able to stay on task better and to complete teh small tasks I am starting. The long list of unfinished stuff is waiting .

So through all this I have found that the combo of Aderall and Wellbutrin is allowing the good aspects of teh Aderall to remain and subduing the depression slightly. But not completely. I still find myself searching in the morning for some lightpost of direction. After teh morning I seem fine through the afternoon and then in teh evening I am somewhat down and melancholy. by late pm I am back to hyper bounce brain and feel liek I always did. Which is fine, but completely unfocused.

So I said all taht to ask this...LOL. IS this a normal adjustment period that I am experiencing. Something that I have to allow the time to stabilize. I know that I am able to focus better than I was before, but it seems that without direction I tend to focus on negatives. Like I explained to teh wife, it is like being forced to look through a microscope at something that you only glanced at and dismissed before. Which is not always good. It opens the door to regrets and fears and unfulfilled dreams that seemed not so important when your brain was running free range. To clarify I have never been a depressed or regretful or melancholy person so this is all new and I am wondering if I just don't have the tools to effectively cope yet.

Answers, comments? I know long winded and verbose and probably tangential ... but hey I just took my meds this morning...give em time.

Buccaneer,
I apologize in advance if I sound harsh or tactless. I don't hate you or anything. I just disagree with some of your comments. There's nothing wrong with debating, right?

Sorry if its too long. I bet half the people on this board won't have a long enough attention span to read this. I know my attention span is too short.

I like science and I am not against using medication if it is absolutely necessary. However, I do not worship meds the way you do. I think it's important not to overmedicate people. No, I am NOT a sucker for snake oil but I am not automatically going to believe something just because a guy in a white lab coat said so either. Scientists can make mistakes and they can be biased just like anyone else. It's natural because they are human, just like us. Many scientists do great work but they are not gods who perform miracles. Medications just don't work for some people. Some members on this board have posted about negative physical reactions they have had to medications. It's arrogant, unfair and irrational to just ignore them while listening to the people who have positive comments. It's irrational to have the "Oh, meds can't possibly do any wrong" attitude that you seem to have. If someone says that he can feel the medication wearing out his body, well then maybe it is. You seem to be very selective and a bit irrational in determining what's anecdotal and what's scientific. I think it's incredibly rude for you to dismiss that guy's symptoms just because it doesn't fit into your perfect picture of the world. I bet if someone on here said that her medication made her feel great you wouldn't automatically dismiss her even though her comments would be just as anecdotal as the other guy's. In my opinion both types of comments are anecdotal because they are being said by random people on the internet. Actually, all of the comments on this board are anecdotal. My comments about my own experiences are anecdotal and so are yours.

I'm not a hard core proponent of pharmaceutical or herbal treatments because I don't know that much about either of those topics. I majored in Sociology and I took a few Public Health classes and many other random classes in college so I am definitely not an expert on these things. I just think it's important for people to find something that works for them, whether it's a Ritalin pill or an herbal supplement. I think it's important to look at everything with a critical eye, including pharmaceutical treatments and traditional/alternative/herbal treatments. There are still some old-fashioned, traditional cultures in the world who don't use pharmaceutical medicines. Does that mean we are better than them? Don't be so arrogant. Again, I'm not anti-science. I just think it's important to be open minded and keep things in perspective. Sorry if I'm being harsh or tactless. Sorry if I rambled for too long. I tend to do that sometimes.

I hope you have a long enough attention span to read my whole post.

Hi Fourpackdad,

My mission is to stomp out superstition and myths about ADD/ADHD (for the kids). I am not a doctor (are you kidding...write an exam! LOL) but have spent much time finding out the facts.

There is no evidence that this medication will shorten your life (or the life of your children). Quite the contrary, it is likely to improve your life outcomes.   Medication does NOT wear you out, struggling with ADD does (ask anyone here!!!).

ADD is a neurological condition and NOT a personality type. As a result of this fact, the primary (and generally most effective) treatment is medication (note: should be combined with other interventions). Other anecdotal reports of alternative treatments have consistently failed to stand up to scrutiny.

The concept of a brain quake is total garbage. Same as the medieval concept of us being surrounded by "ether".

I would NOT recommend or even suggest that anyone not diagnosed by a professional take ANY prescribed medication.   DO NOT try the medication prescribed for ANYONE else including medication that may have been prescribed for your children.

Anecdotal gibberish devoid of any cause and effect relationship will always contaminate discussion boards where anyone can post their opinion, beliefs, stories they heard and their thoughts under the guise of facts.   The facts, in the form of well controlled studies, are available and I would urge you to use them as the basis for your decision making.

Good luck with finding the right medication and dosage.

Regards...The Buccaneer

Here is something else that I notice. You almost never hear adult ADDer's talk about the 'miracle pill'. Children are kindof limited in their ability to understand and express what's normal for them. With adults it's always "Well I like that it does this, but I hate when it does that". It's only from parents do you get that 'miracle' language.

I strongly recommend to all parents that you should take the medicine first for a week, so you know at least what it feels like. Whether you have ADD or not, it won't hurt you anymore than it hurts your child. There are details you should know about, like what a 'brain quake' is. A 'brain quake' is when you suddenly begin to lose conciousness for a second, and the room kindof flips upside down during that time, then everything is normal again except for anxiety caused by wondering if you just had a stroke.

Fourpackdad-

I commend you on your decision to put your son on meds. Floof- Do you have children ?? I have an 8 year old daughter. She was suspected of having ADD in 1st grade. I was knocked for a loop when her teacher first told me of her suspicions. I resisted........ Everything.....I was in denial. I finally swallowed my pride and did my own research coming up with the same conclusion that all her teachers had, and realizing that I was the same way.....but what really pushed me was seeing how unhappy SHE was. By the end of her school day she was in tears. She was never able to finish her work, which meant she had to do it at recess (which I TOTALLY disagreed with)....She was labelled by the other kids; she had 0 friends.ETC,ETC,....She was to the point of failing 3rd grade when I took her to the Doc. She had already changed schools twice and had to adjust to that..the stress was slowly killing her....maybe not pysically, but spiritually, at least......she always had a headache, stomache ache, IBS from stress, at 7 years old!!!!!!!!

She has been on ritalin since October. Her teacher always tells me how good she's doing now. She doesn't cry when getting ready for school now, she gets her work done at school now so she can have recess. Her grades have gone up at least 2 letter grades........We still have to focus extra hard on getting her homework done, her meds wear off around 4:00. But I am SOOO happy that we at least gave meds a chance. She still complains af stomache upset every now and then and I have asked her if she wants to stop her meds and she says 'NO!!!!'

BTW - She has never been or will ever be a "slave robot". Her meds make her 100% her sweet little artsy prissy self. Before she was 50% herself and 50% frustrastion.......I think we need to be reminded why we choose to medicate our children......MY reason is because I want things to be better for her than they were for me when I was a kid.(especially if you are ADD yourself) I don't want her to deal with bad memories of anything. Much less of something that I can help.....I CAN help her have a better childhood than I had. I CAN give her better things than I had, but I can also show her the wonderful support I had (and STILL have) from my parents. If someday she decides she doesn't want to take the meds anymore then I will still support her 100%.....It will be up to her.....and It doesn't matter to me OR her if it is a disease, personality type OR a disorder, it was STILL wrecking her life !!!!! If the meds are helping (without any SIGNIFICANT side affects) then WHY not ?????

You CAN lavish a child with praise and attention - and Yes, I'm sure their self esteem benefits from it, but you cannot tell the kids or teachers at school or anywhere else to do the same . You can not be there 24/7 to put his weaknesses in "proper perspective". You can not always be there when a classmate calls your child 'Stupid', all you can do is tell them that what that person said doesn't matter ,and that does not take the "stupid" remark back . It still happened and a CHILD is not going to forget it, and that 's what 's hurting the self esteem, but if you PREVENT it from happening in the FIRST place, then you got something accomplished.....KWIM ??????

I wish you the best , fourpackdad, and glad to have you here!!!!!!

There was someone on this board in their early 20's, I can't remember the name, who claimed that she had absolutely no memory of her childhood before age 18, because her parents accidently dosed her ritalin too high. I thought that was really scary. Just don't think the medical establishment has all the answers. If all these kids end up with brain cancer in 20 years, they'll just update the latest medical knowledge and move on after a few class action lawsuits. Oops.

It is true that I don't have kids, but I *was* an ADD kid once, so that should count for something. The excitement that parents express about the 'magic pill' makes me nervous, because it's usually based on their child's performance and matters of pride. It reminds me of steroids in pro sports. Yeah, it boosts performance, but where are our priorities? My childhood was really rough at times, and my self-esteem was, and is, lower than it should be perhaps. I learned alot though, about alot of things, and I'm so glad I can remember pretty much all of it!

I currently take adderall, but I only take it when I need to get stuff done. It raises my blood pressure quite a bit when I'm on it for a long period. Sometimes it makes me euphoric, sometimes it makes me irritable. I like the way I am normally, I'm just not terribly productive.

My ADD is pretty severe. I used to be forced to sit at the dinner table after school every day until midnight trying to finish my homework. It was 15 minutes worth, but all I could think about was what I would do if I could go out and play. My parents naturally thought I was just trying to torture them, so they wouldn't let up. I spent a friggen year at the dinner table. Yay.

I would say that mine is a severe as it gets for the innattentive type. However, some kids of the hyperactive type are actually dangerous to themselves and others. In that case I can see that you have to do whatever you can to find some normalcy, but for inattentive ADD, I think the meds can wait until real adult responsibility becomes necessary.

[QUOTE=Mark Goode]

If I may be permitted to enter the fray here on behalf of the Buccaneer chap...

If I understand the man correctly, he is simply saying that he is looking for hard evidence of a treatment working - he doesn't say the treatment has to be a controlled drug. So if (for example) some future study was to find there was hard evidence that putting a daffodil in your ear improved attention, concentration etc - then I imagine it would qualify as 'empirical' (was that the word he used?), and satisfy Mr Buccaneer. Without hard evidence any treatment is likely to be just quackery.[/QUOTE]

Good point. I don't have anything against looking for empirical evidence. I hope I didn't give anyone that impression. I just think Buccaneer is being unfair to people who want to try non-drug methods. He gives me the impression that he's more pro-controlled drug than he is pro-empiricism but my impressions could be wrong. I'll wait and see how he responds. Still, that doesn't change the fact that dismissing floof's symptoms as garbage was extremely rude and irrational. I find that very ironic considering how he claims to be such a rational and scientific person.

I like reading your comments Mark. You don't need permission to enter the fray.

scarygreengiant38458.3834722222[quote=floofthegoof]The main point of my concern is this; I'm an adult, and I can weigh the side effects and risks versus my treatment goals, and decide for myself what route I want to take with the meds. Kids have to do what their told. If the doctor says take 100mg of ritalin, the parents give the kid 100mgs come hell or high water until the child becomes 18.[/quote]

If I may make a comment on this, floof. I've read many posts under the Parents with Children and ADHD Medications on this Board. I've noticed that many parents are able to talk with their children who are on meds and ask them how they feel, and use their responses in helping their doctors in adjusting meds. If a parent realizes their child is not benefiting from the meds, I would hope they would talk with their doctors about adjusting dosages or even meds. Parents who try to get help for their children, and then have another problem because of the meds....well, I just would hope they had the sense to do something about it.

I would have given anything to have been dx'd and treated as a child, and perhaps the last 50+ years of my life may have been different, and of a better quality! GypsyWomyn38458.4004166667Add /adhd is a biochemical disorder not neurological.If it was a EEG should pick this up like it does with epilepsy.

[QUOTE=buccaneer]Hi Fourpackdad,

The concept of a brain quake is total garbage. Same as the medieval concept of us being surrounded by "ether".

[/QUOTE]

I think we have some trolling here, but I want to say that 'brain quakes' are why I stopped taking ritalin. This is not something that I 'heard about'. I experienced this myself. I didn't actually know it had a name until I heard other people talk about it. After I stopped ritalin, I tried a drug called Cylert. A few months later, it was BANNED because it destroys your liver. Oops. Lucky for me I wasn't on it for long.

The main point of my concern is this; I'm an adult, and I can weigh the side effects and risks versus my treatment goals, and decide for myself what route I want to take with the meds. Kids have to do what their told. If the doctor says take 100mg of ritalin, the parents give the kid 100mgs come hell or high water until the child becomes 18.

My cousin, who was 11 at the time was diagnosed with ADD. The doctor *started* him on 30mg a day! Some people may need more, but 30mg would probably send me to the hospital. The poor kid had to resort to hiding the pills because he couldn't handle it. My aunt calls me and says "Since you know what ADD is like, will you tell Johnny that he needs to take his medicine?", Then I heard what was going on and I told her first to get a new doctor, and then told her that I felt that kids shouldn't be taking meds. She replied, "but he wants to be a doctor someday. He needs to do well in school." *He* wants to be a doctor? He's 11 years old! The ADD meds create a dangerous dynamic between kids and their parents dreams.

I say that when you are an adult and your ready to spend a fortune on college tuition, then go for the latest meds. Before then, it's really just *unecessary* risk. 'Unecessary' is the word I want to emphasize.

[QUOTE=scarygreengiant]Buccaneer,
I apologize in advance if I sound harsh or tactless. I don't hate you or anything. I just disagree with some of your comments. There's nothing wrong with debating, right?[/QUOTE]

If I may be permitted to enter the fray here on behalf of the Buccaneer chap...

Some of these quack herbal treatments may help, most will not - but until a study is carried out, and any positive findings can be reproduced in other studies, then these treatments will remain merely Snake Oil. Sorry.

I'll shut up now, shall I?

Mark -

Thank You Gypsy !!!!!

That is the point I was TRYING to make and , as usual, wound up on my soap box, which was completely unintentional, I just got carried away...BUT, BIG BUT HERE........ When it comes to our kids it's VERY HARD not to defend ourselves since ADD is blamed a lot of the time on bad parenting skills......damned if we do, damned if we don't...........if we medicate, we're "copping out" , if we don't, we're bad parents because it's our fault for the way they are (lazy, stupid, slow, whatever) ....and we don't care enough to do anything about it....etc, etc, you know the routine...................ANYWAY...........I did talk to my daughter about the options and could decide if she wanted to try the meds or not.....she is OK with taking them for now......If she changes her mind I will be OK with that and honor HER decision......If I see that she is having bad side effects, I will talk to her about how she is feeling.....I do hope and pray every parent (and person, if YOU are taking meds) feels this way. I do not think that any drug is a "miracle" drug....You have to change lifestyle habits as well with almost all drug therapies.......ESPECIALLY ADD..... I did a LOT of research before I was comfortable enough to deal with Ritalin.......and it HAS made a big difference in her ability to focus. She is innattentive, like me and my mother. I would HATE to make her wait until she had "adult" responsibilities to be medicated...She would never make it out of High School.....I barely did, and Teachers were WAAAAY more lenient than they are now. If school had been like it is now I never would have made it. I started school in '74....Hope Ya'll understand ............

I respect EVERYONE'S opinion here, even if I don't agree.......KIMBERLY

a's mom38460.7436111111

I have many painful memories of growing up with severe ADD....I was never medicated, even though my parents KNEW i had it. As a result, now I am severely depressed (to the point of being suicidal in the past) and I personally feel, that if I had been properly treated with the right meds, then I could have avoided the depression part of this...

Depending on the severity of the ad/hd, i feel parents should not totally rule out meds....this is based on my life experience.

in short, i agree with buccaneer.

just my little 2 cents...

P.S....however I have read over in the parents forum that some parents are medicating their 3 and 4 year olds....i'm still a little confused on why a 3 or 4 year old would have to be medicated? I have not had any adequate answers to that query yet...

--the only answers I get are, "believe me, if I didn't have to medicate my 3 year old, I wouldn't!!"...but this is not sufficient reason enough, i would have to be provided with more facts to agree with this..

sonya_h38458.6078819444How could anyone make it through college with AdHD?[QUOTE=sonya_h]

[/QUOTE]

How on earth could a 3 year old be diagnosed? lol. I can't believe that such a powerful drug such as rit wouldn't have a major impact on a brain that's not even grown to it's full size. Heck, maybe they'll grow up to be super geniuses, with their beaming parents attending every science fair as their kid wins first place as usual. I kinda doubt it though.

I like to hear that parents are involving their kids in the decision making regarding the meds, but the very most important thing is that the kids themselves understand ADD and how it can affect them. If they are too young to understand that then they probably shouldn't be on meds.

[QUOTE=nelsonp]How could anyone make it through college with AdHD?[/QUOTE]

Good question. I believe ADHD affects everyone slightly differently, and perhaps that's why some have been able to go through college, and indeed to achieve quite high levels in education. The guys who wrote the 'Distraction' books have ADHD, and have succesful careers as psychiatrists and authors. Not me. I started writing a book about five years ago, and I've got up to page 4.

It sometimes annoys me when those who have managed to do this start saying things like: "you just have to apply yourself". For me, that's the whole problem - I can't! I wish it were that easy! All the self-discipline in the world won't make my brain stay focussed on a page of text, or the ramblings of a college lecturer, nor will it help me to get the thoughts from out of my head onto the paper I'm trying to write - I really wish it was that simple. But for me it isn't! And I dare say that it isn't that simple for many of us.

Oh dear, was that a rant?

Mark -

Mark, yes, that was a very nice rant...

I know your feeling, I get anoyed when people say that also. I can't make myself focus on something I don't find interesting... I just cant... and then teachers can jump up and down... but you have so much potential... and my ass... then give me a stimulant 10 years ago, and get of my back

[QUOTE=Taag Man]I know your feeling, I get anoyed when people say that also. I can't make myself focus on something I don't find interesting... I just cant... and then teachers can jump up and down... but you have so much potential... and my ass... then give me a stimulant 10 years ago, and get of my back [/QUOTE]

Quite. But surely the one group of people who should be able to understand are our fellow ADHDers? I'm really happy for those people who have managed to make a 'go' of their careers despite their ADHD. But I'm sorry, I can't. I've tried, over 40 times - but it hasn't worked.

Mark -

[QUOTE=Mark Goode]Quite. But surely the one group of people who should be able to understand are our fellow ADHDers? I'm really happy for those people who have managed to make a 'go' of their careers despite their ADHD. But I'm sorry, I can't. I've tried, over 40 times - but it hasn't worked.

Mark -[/QUOTE]

I think that, perhaps some of us does not understand each other, is that we are different... My best friend is also ADHD... and with a very, very big H.... he always has his fingers in 31 and a half project every minuet.. and in most cases at the same time... he gets allot of things done... including fiddling with his ulcer. His problem is not procrastination... He is so heavily overstimulated that he is on the virge of blowing up all the time...

Why he is different, I do not know... but he is so extremely contrary to you and I... and that might be why it is hard to understand?

[QUOTE=floofthegoof]

FlooftheGoof-First of all you are generalizing and secondly you are not giving parents nearly enough credit. Parents who decide to put their children on meds do so for a whole host of reasons. And until you have watched your child suffer in all areas year after year- desperate to help him, until your child has told you he wants to die, until you have cried yourself to sleep every night for a year obsessing over how to help your child, until you've been there it is hard to say what you'll do!

We (parents)do not blindly follow orders given by our Doctors-these decisions are heavily weighed, highly researched and not taken lightly. I do not expect you to understand-when I was a young person without children my children were:

-never going to watch TV, only eat whole foods, never play a video game , be home schooled, etc. It is easy to make parenting decisions before you become a parent!

I totally agree with Mark and Taagman.....

There are some ad/hders out there that can make it through, totally unmedicated...and their are some who can't....the decision to medicate should be based on the individual...

I got sick of people in childhood telling me..."all you have to do is try"....(what the do they think I was doing) and..."careless" mistakes, and "a little of it is laziness"....and "all you have to do is just sit down and apply yourself"....

SOME OF US SIMPLY CAN'T DO THIS, EVEN AS KIDS...

Then there are some ad/hders that take this little herb, and it does wonders, but they often do not work as uniformly for every single person, just as the meds don't work for everybody....

if you find a little herb, or a little method, or technique, that you can use to function, then cool, use it, be well....but keep in mind that it does not work for all of us...and some of us desperatly need help....what are the parents supposed to do in that situation?

I'm sure that the parents do thorough research into to the product they are giving their child,....we should not knock them, because it is not a decision most of them enter into lightly....We should trust them to take the best care of their kids...

as fellow ad/hders who know what each other are going through, we should be supporting each other in whatever treatment method works, be they drugs, herbs, or whatever...

let's not knock each other's treatment methods...we are all different, and therefore our methods of treating our ad/hd is going to be different also.

p.s....i'm still looking for an answer, out of sheer curiosity...why would a 3 year old need treatment for ad/hd?

[QUOTE=Mark Goode]

[QUOTE=nelsonp]How could anyone make it through college with AdHD?[/QUOTE]

Oh dear, was that a rant?

Mark -

[/QUOTE]
I can completely relate Mark. I get sick of hearing that too. Like I WANT to be an unemployed/soon-to-be unemployed loser.

No matter how hard I try my brain WILL NOT FOCUS.

AD/HD is already frustrating enough. We don't need ignorant people rubbing it in.

My mother has also asked the same question that Nelson asked.

She doubts that I really have it because I made it through college. Sure, I made it but I could have done a LOT better w/treatment. I was always struggling to keep up w/my peers and performing well below my capabilities. No matter how hard I tried I could not pay attention to the professors and my brain could not focus on reading anything. I would sit in the library for hours and only be able to read one page. I always ended up doodling or having elaborate daydreams. I even did cartwheels around the library sometimes because I felt like my brain was going to blow up.

[QUOTE=sonya_h] as fellow ad/hders who know what each other are going through, we should be supporting each other in whatever treatment method works, be they drugs, herbs, or whatever...

let's not knock each other's treatment methods...we are all different, and therefore our methods of treating our ad/hd is going to be different also. [/QUOTE]

I completely agree with you Sonya! Let's be more supportive and less judgemental.

[QUOTE=sonya_h] i'm still looking for an answer, out of sheer curiosity...why would a 3 year old need treatment for ad/hd?[/QUOTE]

I was also wondering the same thing. A 3 year old doesn't even need to focus. They're not even in school yet. The only reason I can think of for a toddler to need that kind of medication is if he/she is mentally ill and presents a danger to him/herself or others. I can't imagine a kid being that violent unless he/she possibly has a SEVERE case of the "H" in AD/HD or if the child has a mental illness such as bi-polar that was misdiagnosed??? That seems more likely to me but I don't know. A lot of conditions can look like AD/HD. AD/HD kids are more hyper and impulsive but it doesn't make you psychotic, which is the only reason I can think of for a 3 year old to need mind-altering medications. I am bitter that I wasn't diagnosed and treated at a younger age but I can tell you that I would NOT have wanted to be medicated at age 3.

scarygreengiant38458.6922685185

[QUOTE=EastWest]

And until you have watched your child suffer in all areas year after year- desperate to help him, until your child has told you he wants to die, until you have cried yourself to sleep every night for a year obsessing over how to help your child, until you've been there it is hard to say what you'll do!

[/QUOTE]

I understand this dilemma, but I also don’t accept it as a reason for medication. There is no reason whatever why ADHD, by itself, should make a child sad. Children need only to play and learn, and ADD kids can do that with the best of em. Any sadness must necessarily come from external pressures. If I could change one thing about my childhood, it would be for everyone to not make such a big friggen deal about my grades in school, because you know what? They didn’t matter!!! I got into college with a 1.00 gpa, and while I didn’t do very well in college, I was starting with a clean slate. I can say for certain that my parents riding me into the ground didn’t help me in college either. I do wish that I knew about ADD then, I might have actually graduated. If your child is sad, and you think it’s because of ADD, then you are barking up the wrong tree. I would ask what people were telling them to make them sad. What can you do to let some steam out of the pressure cooker? Do you freak out if it takes them 3 hours to empty the dishwasher, or do you praise them for getting through what for them is like torture?

Kids do need to learn some responsibility, and all of them are going to complain about it. That’s life. To be happy, ADD kids need understanding. They don’t need medicine. Not for ADD anyways.

thanks for this great discussion wonderful forum friends!

First I just want to say how good hanging out at this forum has been for me. I can find a sensible answer to anything I am wondering about here, and I can wallow in my underachievement with a diminished sense of shame!

I think there is a fine line when it comes to medicating children. I don't really see that much point in giving a 3 year old drugs, they just want to play and have fun, but the more a person has to engage with the world, the more beneficial drugs might be.

I can look back and see every year of my life I have been increasingly more in need of meds because I have to rely more on myself, less on parents and teachers - I wish I had them in 8th grade but I REALLY wish I had them at university.

Everyone now asks how I got a degree, but it was a massive effort, and took me 4.5 years to do a 3year course. That's after I already repeated 2 years of high school. It's depressing to think I spent more 3.5 years of my life studying than I needed to!

If parents say it is a 'miracle drug' and adults discuss the pro's and cons, it's because the child still has potential. The kid can improve their grades and carry good self esteem into adulthood.

It's too late for lots of the adults on this board who are trying to get some of that childhood self esteem and confidence back.

I would love to go back to when I was 12 and knew I was great at maths and science. Somewhere along the way I gradually told myself I was too dumb to understand maths, and now I almost don't think I am good at anything at all.

Buccaneer said earlier that ADD is a neurological condition and NOT a personality type. I agree, but I also think that 25 years of being undiagnosed have turned it into a personality type.

I have massively underachieved in my potential and at times have had all the self doubt, low self esteem and depression that goes with that.

As Scarygreengiant says, who wants to be a loser when you know you are capable of better things. Some of us can do well on our own, some of us really need a big helping hand. Good on all of you for at least trying to figure it out.

that's my 15 cents!

eliza38458.7438310185

Very interesting thread! I'm finding a hard time passing this one up. I have some mixed feelings about having a child medicated for add with stimulants, however, I'm not or never have been a parent of a "school aged child" so I can't say for sure what I would do for sure in that situation. I have thought about what I would do though since I have a 2 year old daughter that may inherit my traits. I guess it would depend on the severity of the situation. But based on my own intiuitive extensive research, my conclusion is that many non-medicated "adhders" self medicate themselves because of their so called "personality type" being driven towards high stimulation and addiction. Adhd is accompanied by so many negative characteristics and some are more sever than others. For example, low self esteem issues, depression, addiction, etc. THe problem is, nobody knows how the un-medicated child is going to turn out the older he/she gets. Unfortuantely, there is a high percentage of un-medicated adhders that make some very bad decisions, and especially the one's that turn to drugs for "self-medication." I guess one could evaluate their past history of family members to see if addiction is a significance. But, for a child that is trying to learn in a world that is partly based on "education" as a means of accomplishing sucess and being financially secure, then medicating a child at a young child would not be a bad decision. The exception to this rule however(in my opinion of course) is if the child has many creative qualities that are above average such as drawing, singing, etc, then that's where I would draw the line and decide to let the child rule out their gift and take it from there. As a parent, I would encourage my child to explore their artisitc side perhaps, or try to determine what they are REALLY good at. Being good at something would definitely be a self esteem booster for a child or ANYONE, and in my opinion, if that's the case, then I wouldn't choose the medication route.

ditzychick38459.5542939815

a's mom38460.7444675926I'm not treated either. No health insurance. Going to try to rustle up the 0 for testing if the herbal Clarocet doesn't work. Still waiting on it to arrive. Would like to commend all of the participants for having this interesting debate. I read a lot of it. Like the former lurker I'm a man in my late 30's (38) but have two kids. Stay at home? Yes, and attending my 5th or 6th college about to finally get my bachelors degree. Then I will be immediately moving towards an advanced degree, a teaching credential and later on get either a phd or another masters.

How on earth....ohhh thats right I finally got diagnosed in 1995 and have been sweeping up the wreckage of my pre-diagnostic life ever since.

Had my felonies reduced and then reversed into nada. Transferred from a community college to a middle ranked four year university and then to one of the top three. Will graduate this fall- currently have a 4.0.

MEDICATION. I'll repeat that for those of you who think I just typed BULLsh*t.

MEDICATION. Admittedly it took a lot of trial and error to find the right mix of medications. But, heck-- coming up with a good Gazpacho recipe takes some fiddling.

I'm not saying meds are a Miracle. But, they can be very helpful when combined with a determination to change the paradigm one lives in.

While most of that may have supported Buccaneer's point of view--if not his delivery? I must say that experienced similar 'mind-quakes' back when I was self-medicating with crystal-meth and mixed it with alka-seltzer plus....not fun. Medication can be frightening, dangerous, insidious, inneffective, miraculous, etc.

In context, I really must agree with many of the parents about medicating 'our children'--while they are not really 'our' possessions to treat as we will, we do our best to make them happy, fulfilled, alive, unique, etc--even if it means giving them medication.

While I can't ascribe a hard and fast cut off point as to how young to try medication with a child (which depends in large part on both the child and their environment), me and my wife finally decided to try our 1st grader on methyp.. XR this year.

HE is very proud of how well he is now doing. HE is happy not to be constantly on the cusp of disaster. HE enjoys being able to rip through homework that earlier in the year might have driven him to tears or screaming exasperation. WE are happy the HE is happy. I'm sorry but f**k the report card. My son's happiness is what is important to me. You can say whatever you like, although if you don't have kids--tread lightly-- but, my wife, my son and I are happy he has learned how to swallow his "miracle-of-modern-science" after breakfast.

Gearhead
< ="">

[QUOTE=gearhead]You can say whatever you like, although if you don't have kids--tread lightly-- but, my wife, my son and I are happy he has learned how to swallow his "miracle-of-modern-science" after breakfast.
[/QUOTE]

Thanks for that excellent post Chris.

I wanted to reply to many of the points raised in this thread, but as I have no experience of meds I felt I was not qualified to do so. However, I do have extensive experience of unmedicated ADHD - and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.

Mark -

Oh, I definitely do not agree to medicate a pre-schooler. But when all other options are out, then I guess meds would have to be the answer. Some people need insulin, and some people need dopamine(I think dopamine.)

the only way in my mind right now, that i could see medicating a toddler for ad/hd is if he was a threat to his own life...

i guess the big question is, is can ad/hd be THIS severe in a toddler?

i never heard of that....i'll bet that would be really rare..

sonya_h38459.8410300926

a's mom38460.7440856481I have ADHD innatentive type. It took me SEVEN years to finish a four year degree.

My daughter (ADHD inattentive) asks for her Adderall. If it was giving her discomfort I think she would pass when I ask if she's taking it for me or herself.

my two cents.

My post is directed to floofthegoof mostly.
I referred to my Strattera as a wonder drug in another post. And also in another post I commented on my trying my daughter's Adderall XR. I don't recommend anyone trying it BTW. However for me it was a wake up call. It was if I had been looking through a dirty window all these years (I'm 31) and someone gave me a paper towel and a bottle of glass cleaner. I have heard the "not living up to my potential" and even uttered the same words to my daughter on occasion.

I do agree with you in a way though. The sadness I felt as a child and my daughter feels now is a direct result of external pressure. Teachers, parents etc. telling you you're bright but not doing what they know you can but knowing deep down that you ARE trying. I have had my daughter at the dining room table until 9:00pm and then up at 5:30am to finish homework. Now she get's half of her homework done AT SCHOOL. She comes home does the rest and can have her free time which makes us both happy. Does the adderall make her get her homework done at school? I doubt it. She wanted to do that all along but for some reason couldn't.

Forgive me if I missed it but you stated you were on Ritlin and suffered some bad side effects. Are you on anything now? How do you view your life now? Are you "living up to your potential" now by your standards?

I would like for you to respond. I hope you don't get offended. I like to hear opposing views because it makes me feel like I am really doing all I can to research this !

[QUOTE=kay's mom]I have ADHD innatentive type. It took me SEVEN years to finish a four year degree.

[/QUOTE]
Personally, I think that's something to be very proud of.

[QUOTE=kay's mom]
How do you view your life now? Are you "living up to your potential" now by your standards?

[/QUOTE]

That’s a good question that I guess I need to answer. Am I living up to my potential? To answer that question exactly, I would have to be sure of what my potential is, and that is actually a pretty hard thing to be sure of. I’m not a rock star, or a famous painter, or an accomplished scientist, or any of those things I thought I should’ve been at one time or another. Not only am I not those things, but I’m 36, I’m not married, I have no family of my own and for 5 years I’ve been in the same dead-end job, making about half what I should be paid for what I do.

It’s not all bad news however, I did just buy my own home and I’ll be moving in next weekend. That’s pretty exciting! Also, with the help of some strategic application of meds, I was actually able to bring one of my crazy ideas to fruition. It was a gigantic failure commercially but I am intensely proud of my ability to finish it. You can check it out here at www.crazyformsdll.com. I have yet to have a single customer from about 1000 demo downloads. You’d think there’d be an impulse buyer somewhere out in internetland, but not for me lol.

My lack of achievement has at times made me sad, but the older I get, the more I realize that stuff doesn’t really matter. I’m loyal to my friends. I try to help people when I can. I avoid intentionally harming others. Those are things that I feel I can be proud of and happy about.

Look at someone often used as the benchmark for success, Donald Trump. The man is constantly trying to get on TV. He has a new wife every few years. It would appear that no level of achievement is good enough for him. I don’t know him, but that doesn’t look like happiness to me. People are capable of wanting infinite praise and wealth, but by being confined to one short lifetime, we can only achieve a finite amount of those things. Therefore, ‘achievement’ is actually very unstable ground to build a foundation for happiness.

So if, when we talk of my ‘potential’, we mean my potential for happiness, I would have to say that I have *almost* reached my potential. I’m not finished yet though! I still have time left! If I’m lucky enough to find a good woman and have a nice family, it would be icing on the cake. If not, I still have my crazy ideas to fall back on and enjoy, and I do enjoy them intensely.

Quick Reply before off to school, During Elementary, and High school I was not technically medicated. But; I should have been. I'm pretty confident it would have been better for me than all of the illicit, licit drugs and addictive behaviors I tried in lieu of legitamate medical treatments that are now extant.
gearhead.
< =""> Aside from having ADD, im also a stubborn bastard, so I'll try to put my argument forth in yet another way.

When your 18 and squeaked out of high school, or have a GED or whatever, the world is still your oyster. Anything can still happen. At that point the meds can take you to the same places as they would have if you had started them at age 9. Giving kids meds is kindof the opposite philosophy of putting braces on their teeth. With braces, they're ugly when it doesn't matter, and pretty when it matters more. Giving kids meds to make them pretty now, is kinda wasteful. Would a 13 year old girls self esteem improve if she had breast implants? Maybe. Should it be done for that reason? Questionable.

Dang gotta go work ill try to make sense later

floofthegoof38460.2740740741

[QUOTE=floofthegoof] Aside from having ADD, im also a stubborn bastard, so I'll try to put my argument forth in yet another way.[/QUOTE]

Stubborn? Oh good, so am I.

[QUOTE]
When your 18 and squeaked out of high school, or have a GED or whatever, the world is still your oyster.
[/QUOTE]

I didn't last at school until I was 18, I was kicked out three years earlier (and I rarely attended school during the 18 months before that). The world wasn't my oyster, in fact I was considered unemployable. Would it have helped if someone had shoved drugs down my throat during my school years? Almost certainly it would, could it have made things worse? With hindsight, I would have loved the opportunity to find out.

Too bloody late now though.

Mark -

Being an unmedicated young adult with AD/HD I have been miserable. Meds are not for everyone and they can be misused but they can help too. In two weeks I will be unemployed. Maybe this wouldn't have happened if I was on medication.

Or maybe this job wasn't right for me and I would be unhappy even if I was on medication. Floof does raise some good points about how societal expectations make us unhappy. Maybe if we lived in a more ADD friendly world a lot of us wouldn't feel the need to take meds.

Floof HAS experienced part of the dilema as he has ADHD. Iam interested in his views as a person who has grown up with it. I am trying to see both sides of what my child may go through be it on meds or without.

I guess what your trying to say Floof is the way your life turned out so far is not all that great and not all that bad. Who is to say how a kid's life will turn out? I'm realativley new on this as far as research goes but I don't think there has been enough research that can clearly say hey this kid would have been a sociopath if he/she hadn't been medicated. I know Chris will probably disagree with me on that..

You're really making me wonder, Floof if it is MY self esteem on the line here concerning my daughter's meds. I want her to turn out better than I have so far but I guess my life isn't so bad. I managed to stay on the right side of the law, finish school (don't remember much of what I learned) and I have a decent bill paying type of job. I think we all see visions of grandur when we look at our kids. I don't want her to struggle through life like I did. I want her to be accepted by society as much as possible because I don't want her to experience the pain of being an outcast...however I would have to draw the line at the implants!

floofthegoof,

i have an 11yo ADHD son, he has been on concerta since he was 6. we decided to medicate him when he was in 1st grade. without his meds he is unable to control himself, he couldn't sit still long enough to learn anything. i'm not exaggerating when i tell you we got phone calls everyday day from the school along with letters being sent home. i know this may sound trivial, but he was failing the 1st grade, how could i, as a parent, allow my child to fail. he prolly spent more time out of the class room then he did in cause not only was he not learning anything, he was disrupting the class so much that it affected others. he didn't have any friends because no one wanted to be around him, my own family didn't even want him coming over! he was a very bright, creative, funny, and loving kid, and now that he's on his meds, he's still all that and more, he can accually sit and talk with us, as for school, he's doing great and we've been very fortunate that, so far, all of his teachers have been wonderful. don't get me wrong, concerta is not a magic pill, we still have our daily struggles to deal with and it can be very stressful at times. all of this said, all i want is for my son to live a some what "normal" life. without meds, i didn't see that happening, what i seen was a future that no parent would want for their child. i truly believe that if i wouldn't have medicated him and allowed him to go on the way he was, then i would have been taking away his childhood. what child wants to have no friends and be made fun of because of the way he acts? what child wants to be put down by their peers and not allowed to do the same things the other kids are doing cause they can't control themselves? what parent wants to see their kids hurting everyday because they feel stupid and that no one likes them? this is my own personal opinion, but to allow my son to suffer through these feelings everyday and to literally hurt himself everyday because of his "condition" and not doing anything about it, i concider that a form of abuse. we didn't just jump in and give him pills, we did our research, we did the counselling, we tried everthing that we could think of and to this day are still looking and trying new things. my son doesn't have adult responsibilities but i do, and making sure that he has the best possible treatment and the best life i can give him is the biggest responsibility i will ever have.

[QUOTE=kay's mom]

[/QUOTE]

p.s. i've never posted in this section because i've always felt that in some way i was intruding, but after reading what flooftheloof was saying, i couldn't let it go, so i'm sorry if i am intruding.

[QUOTE=TRyan]p.s. i've never posted in this section because i've always felt that in some way i was intruding, but after reading what flooftheloof was saying, i couldn't let it go, so i'm sorry if i am intruding.[/QUOTE]

do not feel as if you are intruding. we welcome all opinions.

[QUOTE=floofthegoof] Aside from having ADD, im also a stubborn bastard, so I'll try to put my argument forth in yet another way.

When your 18 and squeaked out of high school, or have a GED or whatever, the world is still your oyster. Anything can still happen. At that point the meds can take you to the same places as they would have if you had started them at age 9. Giving kids meds is kindof the opposite philosophy of putting braces on their teeth. With braces, they're ugly when it doesn't matter, and pretty when it matters more. Giving kids meds to make them pretty now, is kinda wasteful. Would a 13 year old girls self esteem improve if she had breast implants? Maybe. Should it be done for that reason? Questionable.

Dang gotta go work ill try to make sense later

[/QUOTE]

What about children who grow older and end up abusing illicit drugs? Do you realise how high the statistics are? I don't call that too pretty. Many parents choose meds as their LAST resort and I'm SURE that it's a very hard decision. I hate when people form opinions about something without experienceing the situation or dilemma! I'm sorry if that sounds argumentative or whatever but I can't help it. Of course you ARE entiled to your own opinion and so am I so that's my opinion.

ditzychick38460.4046064815

WOW-Perhaps we all suffer in some arena's-but aren't we great writers! I am truly impressed by the writing in this post-witty,intelligent,well written! Is that another positive ADD/ADHD trait?

Eastwest, I can understand your anger. As a matter of fact we can all take turns venting--we all have things that deservedly cause our ire to rise. Shucks, I remember spending a lot of time enraged/angry when I was younger. There was a very simple reason behind it--I found a mental trick where I could transform /overwhelm my depression by channeling/transmogrifying it into anger. I generally found it easier to vent my anger than to remove my depression.

gearhead
< =""> Floofthegoof/Eastwest/et al:

Eastwest, while I agree that Floofthegoof might be perceived as talking out of an atypical orfice; especially as I disagree with his broader stance on medication, I feel that his expression of his opinions on this thread have inspired the dialogue every bit as much as Fourpackdad's original query. So while I can empathize with the emotions that spring up (I'm defensive about medication my 6 year old especially), I want us all to see each other as allies rather than enemies. If some 'normal' beaurocratic, pedantic, stick-in-the-mud, oppresser of the ADDer's gets on this forum; I'll be the 1st one throwing verbal spears, meanwhile back in Gotham I think we should fight the good fight together.

gearhead

OOPS, sorry I sound so pedantic.....I'm sure I'll find a way to punish myself for it later.
< =""> geezzz,, i thought we were through with all this nitpicking!

sonya_h

Sorry...I just came late to the party....no one addressed buccaneer's challenge for "real facts" in this matter as requested. Its too important to let it slide. Some people may believe buccanneerin the assumption that meds cannot hurt you. So how would they protect themselves?

Karen

"There is no reason whatever why ADHD, by itself, should make a child sad."

I've sort of lost who said that, where and why, somewhere in the past 10 pages. OK, you can argue that it's the reactions of others that cause the unhappiness - but their reactions (especially those of other kids) are frequently caused by the hopeless social skills that most ADHDers have. Surely I'm not the only one here who couldn't work out how to make friends? Right back as far as pre-school I was the kid nobody would play with. It wasn't the fault of the others, it was me who p###ed them all off all the time because I couldn't do anything right. Was I sad as a kid? - well, weren't we all? You may say that society needs to change to accept ADHDers for what we are, but you'll never get that kind of acceptance from a five year old.

Sorry if this has already been covered, but I lost my way in this long thread

Mark -

[QUOTE=Mark Goode]

"There is no reason whatever why ADHD, by itself, should make a child sad."

Sorry if this has already been covered, but I lost my way in this long thread

Mark -

[/QUOTE]

I sort of covered it in some posts, I'll let you plumb the depths for it though.

You gave me another idea for something else to add though. Society does not, and will not, change to accomodate ADDer's. However, I think that as ADDer's, we can recognize that society has it's own mental problems, and should not have the last word regarding our self worth.

KarenH,

Plaudits on a well thought out reply to Buccaneer's planking. As a former Crystal/Crank abuser and current Dexedrine user I can only concur about the dangers of stimulant use. Yet, as apparent by my personal choice and the choice my wife and I gave our son, we feel that the benefits outweigh the risks in our cases.

gearhead
< =""> Sonya,

Which nitpicking were you referring to? I personally feel that the underlying debate inre stimullants/brain chemistry/childhood is anything but nitpicking-- so I'd imagine you don't mean that? If you are referring to the tactically suspect offensive argument styles of some of the posts -- I can only agree with you.

I've got to go post my 1st new topic! wish me luck.

gearhead
< ="">

Gearhead

you wrote....we feel that the benefits outweigh the risks in our cases.

Yah... me too. I take Dex and I feel given all the facts that this is best for me right now. I'm always open to another way and I am considering a few non med approaches but it takes time to research all these great posts and suggestions in this forum.

Hey....Ow! I just fell off my soap box!

THE CROWD CHEERS!!! THE CROWD GOES WILD !!!

Karen N38463.6556597222

Buccaneer, I am motivated to write this to defend floofthegoofs's views on the first page previous to your response which you malign him yet do not directly and honourably address him. I may not hold all his views but this is his opinion and he's entitled to share it. Some of it is very thought provoking and this is a good thing. Below though are specific areas of your reply that I take issue with for myself and all others here.

I do not wish to embarrass you but on the below matters, you've left me no choice. You did invite people to show evidence for you to retract your views...I'll settle for re think and maybe a little respect for others by addressing them directly and honourably in the future. Lets get to it then.....

[QUOTE=buccaneer]Hi Fourpackdad,

My mission is to stomp out superstition and myths about ADD/ADHD (for the kids). I am not a doctor (are you kidding...write an exam! LOL) but have spent much time finding out the facts.

There is no evidence that this medication will shorten your life (or the life of your children). Quite the contrary, it is likely to improve your life outcomes. Medication does NOT wear you out, struggling with ADD does (ask anyone here!!!).

[/QUOTE]

Although I agree medications are helpful for most of us in our quality of life, you are badly mistaken in your assumption that ADHD meds, which are almost all "stimulant" medications will not adversely affect your "quantity" of that same life. They can indeed "end your life" or at the very least stress your heart. There is plenty of medical evidence about this. Dex, Adderall and the like are stimulants...it may stimulate your brain activity, prolong the re uptake of dopamine, seratonin etc. depending on the stimulant and this is beneficial for ADD but the stimulants are not confined to the brain alone. It courses through your whole body via the blood stream! As we all know, several children and adults alike have died due to high blood pressure, stress of high heart rate and brain aneurysm's while taking these meds. Adderall now officially has to carry this warning on its drug for consumers in the US but in Canada, its been banned out right.

[QUOTE=buccaneer]

The concept of a brain quake is total garbage. Same as the medieval concept of us being surrounded by "ether".

[/QUOTE]

I myself, take Dex. I monitor myself often and accept the trade off for the benefit of my circumstances. I am very aware that my heart is constantly stimulated to pump faster and harder. Pushed too hard for too long can definitely compromise it's shelf life. Stimulants also restrict blood vessels. This fact, simplistically put, is the way stimulants make the helpful brain chemicals stick around longer for your brain to use ( which gives the results we desire) but this same mechanism also makes it harder for ALL the blood to get where its going via the heart etc. Unfortunately this also sets the body up for " brain quakes" which is an accepted slang for small brain seizures and additonally this process can cause possible blood clots in the body...aneurysm's being the most common on stimulants. How can this not be "wearing" to your body?! Did you really research this topic or are you just fooling yourself?

I'm really not trying to freak people out... but we have to be real here, otherwise what good is this forum? If you get the Doc to monitor you at least 3 x a year, you're in reasonable shape, try to maintain your self well, get your own blood pressure monitor, use it faithfully and are aware of the effects...you should be OK. Your heart is a muscle...it can and does where out. Minimizing the effects of stimulant use through education and good health maintenance is just a given for us who choose to be on these meds.

[QUOTE=buccaneer]

Anecdotal gibberish devoid of any cause and effect relationship will always contaminate discussion boards where anyone can post their opinion, beliefs, stories they heard and their thoughts under the guise of facts. The facts, in the form of well controlled studies, are available and I would urge you to use them as the basis for your decision making.

[/QUOTE]

I whole heartedly agree. Perhaps you should follow your own advise.

Everyone is entitled to differences of opinion about methods to deal with ADHD but I draw the line when it comes to people denying facts, under the guise of "Myth", about the proven medical evidence and drug effect warnings, simply because they apparently are unwilling to do unbiased research. You can also just read the literature provided by your pharmacist when you first buy a drug, pay attention to whats told to you by your doctor when he prescribed it for you and now finally, read... its right on the bottle!

Karen

Karen N38463.6129050926

"There is no reason whatever why ADHD, by itself, should make a child sad."

Floof-I can't even believe you uttered these words-you contradict yourself-as you have stated many times- you have been sad because of your ADD issues. It is not the ADHD that makes a person sad but the negative feedback they receive every moment of every day from teachers, parents, peers, strangers. They know from a very young age that they are different! Did you know children with attention issues can be "re-directed" (this translates into getting "in trouble" to a child) up to 300 times per day!! Wouldn't and didn't your self esteem suffer?

I began a mission to make sure my sons demoralized self would be healed. I made sure he had an IEP, OT at school. I moved him to a private school where they teacher repsect for yourself and others, I made his home environment one where he could feel safe, loved and secure no matter what happened when he walked out the door. We worked together so he could learn important social skills. Here is a partial list of alternative methods we have tried to treat ADHD: Occupational Therapy,neuro-feedback,counseling,counseling and more counseling,feingold diet,visual therapy, tutoring,ABA, IEP,504 plan,social skills group,book buddies groups,homeopathy-it goes on and on. None of these made a difference until we used medication along with them. The point is to stop talking out of your A**! I mean that with all due respect. You seem to be speaking from your own unfortunate experiences and unable to open your mind to look at another's view.

Oh yeah! FYI- I could care less about my sons grades-he doesn't even receive grades at his school-but he does need to learn! It feels like you have built up resentment for your parents as they put too much emphasis on your grades when you were growing up and for that I am truly sorry. I will use your words to make sure my son never feels that way! Thank You!

[QUOTE=EastWest]

"There is no reason whatever why ADHD, by itself, should make a child sad."

It is not the ADHD that makes a person sad but the negative feedback they receive every moment of every day from teachers, parents, peers, strangers.

[/QUOTE]

So... we are in agreement on this?

Floof wrote:

"Do you freak out if it takes them 3 hours to empty the dishwasher, or do you praise them for getting through what for them is like torture? No,to the dishwasher and yes all the time to the praise.

Kids do need to learn some responsibility, and all of them are going to complain about it. That’s life. To be happy, ADD kids need understanding. They don’t need medicine. Not for ADD anyways."

The above thread was in part a response to this quote. I agree floof, but understanding is not always enough! And even though I tried -I found it nearly impossible to follow my child around trying to explain how he needed understanding. It is so much more complex than you can know. Nice sparring with you and promise me you will try to open your mind. I can already see in my ADHD son how he thinks he has it all figured out. This could be his biggest downfall in life! Don't let it be yours.

yes- I guess we are! [QUOTE=EastWest]

And even though I tried -I found it nearly impossible to follow my child around trying to explain how he needed understanding.

[/QUOTE]

Your child is going to listen to you more than anyone else. I wouldn't worry so much what other people say. All children have to face criticism, both deserved and undeserved. We all deal with it the best we can, and if you give them a solid place to stand, eventually they'll be able to screen out the stuff thats unwarranted.

Sheesh, parents get very defensive when you say "Hey, maybe meds aren't worth the risk." I really feel that most of the damage to my life from ADD was from just not knowing about it. That knowledge has helped me a great deal, while the meds have only been a very small part of it.

It's not that I worry about what other people say(I've really had to let that go as I raise a son with ADHD)-But I do feel a responsibility to show different views on such matters! I think parents get defensive because they have to deal with a lot of people second guessing them and often second guessing themselves. As a mother with ADD it would be many times easier to make a medication decision for myself then to try and make the decision for a child! It was the single most difficult and scariest decision of my life to date.

And yes children do have to deal with criticism but too much criticism (with or without attention difficulties )results in low self-esteem amongst other issues and we all know where that can go. A child wtih attention issues is bombarded with criticism-too much for some to handle.

And you are right the meds should only be a small part of it. I can see the meds give my son that extra little time that enables him to stop and think before he makes decisions. All of the "other stuff" is able to sink in because the meds give my child the ability to slow down and listen to the world around him.

Had to go pull my son out of a sink hole he couldn't resist enlarging and then jumping into! Of course he got stuck as it was very deep!

Okay, I'm sorry for my part in dragging on the argument but I just had to respond to Buccaneer's assertion that meds couldn't possibly harm people. Ironically he was being a little irrational in my opinion. I also felt that the garbage name calling was inappropriate. Karen's response was much better than mine.

A lot of what you said was what I wanted to say too but you expressed it more intelligently and without useless rambling.