Spanking Debate | ADHD Information
Well i'm not add or adhd...but i know spanking worked with me...my sister is add and i think it worked with her...but my brother is adhd...and it seems you can scream, hit, and do everything possible under the sun and STILL not get through to him...thats my thoughtsIs that intended to be an argument, or just a statement of opinion? How do you know spanking "worked" with you? What did it accomplish? What side effects were there?A sample of one doesn't prove anything much. There are statistically significant studies, involving large numbers of people, showing higher rates of hitting parents; things like lying and cheating; later alcoholism or depression; and growing up to do spousal abuse among people who were spanked.
It's quite common for people who were spanked to believe that spanking "worked" on them. Often, people believe that the right amount of spanking for all children is about the amount they experienced -- even though this experience varies widely.
Although spanking is sometimes (not always!) followed by the child not repeating the thing they were spanked for, statistical studies show that spanking also tends to be followed by larger amounts of misbehaviour in general over the long term (2 years).
What is the evidence that convinces you that spanking "worked" on you?
When my kids were little, we made a simple rule at our house that can be summed up in two words: No Hurting.
That meant that we didn't hurt them and they were not allowed to hurt us. It was strictly enforced and now we feel that we don't need to spank. I'm sure all kids are different, but we didn't want to teach our kids that it was okay for us to hit them, but not vice versa, because we were bigger and in control.
As they grew older, we expanded the definition of hurting from physical hurting to included emotional hurting as well (name calling, etc.) When they would come home complaining that somebody hurt their feelings, we would discuss why it hurt, what their options were, and how they might handle it next time. Each discussion would end like this: "You know how bad it made you feel when Joey called you a freak? I want you to think about how you felt and make sure that you are never responsible for making somebody else feel as bad as you felt today."
This worked for both my ADD child and non-ADD child. Again - I know this won't work for every kid, and it certainly helped that we were consistent from the beginning with this strategy.
well i'm hit when i do somehting "bad" i'm 15...when i did this "bad" thing my dad will grab the belt and hit me....i believe it works because i try to refrain from doing it!we have found spanking to be a valuable disciplinarytool when done WITHOUT ANGER. If a parent is
angry they should divert the discipline to the other
parent,(if available),or wait till later and your calmer.
When a child is struck in anger it teaches the child to
lash out when they are angry.
What is this survey you keep refering to?.I dont buy
it! How many of the people who took part in this study
spanked when angry?
The bible advocates spanking(spare the rod,
spoil the child) and the bible WORKS for me.
I wonder if you were abused (spanked when
angry) as a child.
One walk through the grocery store will tell you a
lot- screaming kids controlling their parents with
their manipulative cries.
you didnt see that 50 years ago (but you did see
spanking)well idk....all i know it that i try to do things that wont make my dad or mom mad...or what is "bad" so i don't get hit...and it seems to work for me
On your site you said
"Numerous scientific studies link spanking with undesirable effects, such as increased misbehaviour of the child; mental illness;juvenile delinquency; the child growing up to become a spouse-beater, etc.""Numerous scientific studies link spanking with effects such as being more likely to commit crime; lying and cheating;being more likely to be depressed or an alcoholic as an
adult; being more likely to grow up to become a spouse-beater."
Well I was spanked, & none of these apply to me.
"Spanking is like smoking."
I had no idea it was addictive.
"Spanking is not necessary."
If you say to a child -if you do X you will get a spanking & they then do it a spanking is what they get.
"Also, it's clearly personal: it's something the parent is doing to the
child."
Aren't all forms of punishment something the parent is doing to the child? Perhaps it really is something the child has earned by their own misbehavior.
"At the same time, a spanking gives a child long-lasting
information about how to push a parent's buttons."
Any type of reaction teaches this.
"I can imagine them laughing, with a mischievous expression on their face,
watching out of the corners of their eyes to see if anyone is noticing their bold action as they run into the street."
WOW, I really can't say just how crazy that sounds.
Look, I respect everyone has a right to their opinion. But I am sure everyone here isn't giving a spanking that would get them arrested for child abuse. But a swat on the tush, not given in anger, for an appropriate infraction, in the right age group is effective. There are reasons why certain types of punishments work at certain ages. All factors need to be taken into account when taking any disciplinary actions, along with the fact discipline should never be dispensed right at the time of infraction when it is done "in the heat of the moment". If a child knows that a certain infraction or behavior leads to grounding & the child does it, then the child should be grounded. The same works for spanking or any other type of punishment.
I cannot imagine where your ideas for "Children save up this information, and it often gets used when the child later wants to punish the parent for something " came from. I mean who is running the house? Exactly how is the child going to be able to punish the parent? Please give examples.
Hi. I've read the posts and have felt ambivalent in participating in the discussion only because the subject matter brings back awful memories. I admit I actually feel nauseaus reading some of the pro-spanking posts only because I was raised in a home where I was constantly spanked as a kid up to the age of adolescence. Yes, I do agree with others who share that they were spanked and have shared that they have grown up to be responsible, successful adults. I too am a law abiding citizen as well as a successful professional involved in a stable, loving, long term relationship regardless of all the physical abuse I received as a youngster. As a mother of an extremely challenging ADHD child, I admit in the toddler years of this child, I did spank on those rare occasions where it seemed nothing else worked. I think it was more only because I didn't know of any other option especially when I was feeling totally at my wit's end. My younger son can be a handful but nothing like my older boy.
Nowadays, I have chosen not to spank anymore because spanking just isn't the answer to me. I want to break the cycle of my childhood. I think the only way I can do that is by educating myself to help myself when it comes to dealing with those crazy days with my kids when they're whining, demanding, persistent, and acting totally mind crazy to the point that it's intolerable, and only parents who have lived in my situation understand. I think for outsiders (family, friends, school staff, docs, strangers, et cetera) it's easy to judge and provide a quick solution, but I know it's hard as hell to live in the situation. All parents of ADHD children and other disorders are saints in my eyes. It's not easy to parent these children.
My goal in using methods like PET, Parent Effectiveness Training, in disciplining my children is because I want to have a everlasting and loving relationship with them while they reside in the home now and after they have chosen to move on to make their own lives when they're men. I don't want my kids feeling nauseaus like myself when they think about their childhood like I do. I love my parents. I just wish they could have given me and themselves a time out so that we could have talked about what the root of the problem was instead of finding a quick solution and leaving me feeling defeated, resentful, and frustrated after I was spanked. A little talking and feeling heard and acknowledged can make such a big difference; a testimony I've heard from my own kids!
Gosh, I wish my folks would have invested the time in learning better parenting skills. What a difference it would have made in my self esteem and self worth as a kid growing up. These are just my words for whatever they're worth. They may not be worth anything to anybody, but I just thought I'd pour a little bit of my heart out for whatever it's worth.
Leticia
Folks,
I was one of those kids who was spanked growing up and turned out okay, stable, successful and in a long term healthy relationship. Therefore, I believed there was nothing wrong with applying the same practice to my child.
With that said, I've had to make a major paradyme shift when discipling a child with ADHD. When my first child (without ADHD) had a problem with inappropriate words, one bite from a bar of soap was enough to dissade the use of such words in the future. With my second child who has ADHD, I realized that ordinary discipline was not going to work as he started on his third bar of soap and was still using inappropriate language. No matter how much we spanked it did not change his behavior. Then I found an incredible website in which they explained what when on in the brain of a child with ADHD. http://www.pediatricneurology.com/full.htm
"If you want to make sense out of inexplicable behaviors by someone with ADHD, just ask yourself: “What behavior makes sense if you only had 4 seconds left to live?” For example, if you only had 4 seconds to live, it would make sense to lie in order to expediently get out of a problem…After all, who cares about a future reputation when there is no future?!”
"Remember that children with ADHD have two time frames: “Now,” and “Huh.” There is no future. There is no past. There is only now".
So you can see why spanking is not a behavior changing tool to be used with an ADHD child or for that matter any child. The website is 'right-on' providing tools for your child and for you to be successful. What was really interesting is one of the main goal of this site is to have your child still love you when they turn 18. Give that some thought the next time your temper flares at your ADHD child who isn't listening and doesn't appear to care about the consequences of their actions.
Paul
Csmommy, thank you for participating in this debate.
I had said:
"I can imagine them laughing, with a mischievous expression on their face, watching out of the corners of their eyes to see if anyone is noticing their
bold action as they run into the street."
Csmommy replied:
"WOW, I really can't say just how crazy that sounds"
Haven't you ever seen a gleefully disobedient two-year-old?
Csmommy said:
'I cannot imagine where your ideas for "Children save up this information, and it often gets used when the child later wants to punish the parent for something " came from. I mean who is running the
house? Exactly how is the child going to be able to punish the parent? Please give examples. '
Example: a child misbehaves, and the parents tell the child that as a punishment, the child will not get to go swimming that week. The child then goes wild with all sorts of misbehaviour. Part of this is because the child thinks "Well, they've already taken away my swimming; now they can't do anything much more to me." And part of it is because the child wants to punish the parents for taking away the swimming.
An excellent example of a child punishing the parents is a child shouting swearwords at the parents. The only reason the child does this is because the child knows this will bother the parents. Probably the main way the child knows this is because of how the parents have reacted to swearwords in the past.
Another example of a child punishing the parents is a child who has just been put in their room as a punishment, who yells, bangs the walls, and destroys things. The purpose of this behaviour is to influence the parents not to put the child in the room like that -- in just the same way that the purpose of putting the child in the room is to influence the child not to do whatever it was the child just did.
Who is running the house? I don't know. Sometimes the parents. Sometimes one or more children. Often some combination. But each person is always in control of his/her own behaviour.
Csmommy, you said that a "swat on the tush" can be "effective". I say: OK, but what is the effect? Part of the effect is to show a child that physical punishment can be used to influence the behaviour of others, and that doing this is condoned by our society. Even if spanking is "effective", that doesn't make it necessary.
There are other punishments that have been shown in scientific studies to be equally effective as spanking in a typical situation -- without the side effect of modelling violence.
(See my web page "Why spank when there are effective alternatives?" on my parenting site http://www.ncf.ca/~an588/par_home.html
Csmommy, the following are my main points. Do you disagree with any of these? Which ones?
-- Spanking is not necessary.
-- Spanking is harmful.
-- Any child can be raised well without spanking.
-- Spanking tends to cause worse behaviour in the long run.
Rosina I have answered you in a PM.I was surprised to see a number of people on this forum recommending spanking. My experience on alt.support.attn-deficit newsgroup was that whenever spanking was mentioned, somebody would say that spanking doesn't work on ADHD kids, and that would be that.
Anyway, I've put up a web page with my arguments about why spanking is unnecessary and harmful. I'd like to have a polite discussion/debate/argument. I invite people to post on this thread arguments for and against spanking as an effective parenting technique. (Without profane language or personal insults.)
I've had trouble logging in to this forum lately, so I may or may not be able to reply much.
Anyway, my initial arguments are on the parenting
section of my website. I may add more pages.
my parenting section:
http://www.ncf.ca/~an588/par_home.html
page with my arguments against spanking:
http://www.ncf.ca/~an588/spank.txt
I WAS SPANKED AS A CHILD AND I DID NOT TURN OUT TO BE A BAD PERSON. HECK I WAS EVEN SWAT UP SIDE THE HEAD A FEW TIMES AND GOT AFTER WITH A BROOM. AND IT DID NOT MAKE ME A BAD PERSON. IT IS ALL IN HOW YOU TEACH YOUR CHILDREN. I AGREE TOTALLY WITH SONGWRITER ( SRAPE THE ROD, SPOIL THE CHILD) 
NOW I DO NOT AGREE WITH BEATING A CHILD. THAT IS SOMETHING A LOW DOWN DOG WOULD DO.
It is a known fact that ADHD kids are not in control of their bodies or minds. So lets look at it this way.
Let's say you spank your child (with out anger) showing them that acting out will result in a little pain. After months of this your child is now afraid to act out! He/she is well behaved. That is great for the parents and everyone else... but what about how the child is feeling mentally? Everyone has emotions that at one time or another can't be contained. As adults we all cry and get angry, and these are normal emotions. But what if after a while the people that you love started yelling at you and giving you a little smack everytime you had those emotions? You would of course stop showing them and act accordingly!
Inside though you would feel like your feelings are not valid or important to anyone. You would be forced to bottle up feelings that you can't control. Everyone knows what happens when this happens!! Something eventually has to give....and it is never a good thing!
I honestly believe that spanking a child with ADHD, is like using a bandaid on a deep wound that needs stitches.
I am no "mother earth"! In fact I am far from it! There are many times where I could just throttle my son for some of the things he does! I am also very guilty of yelling and screaming! But I do stand by my no spanking policy! It just doesn't seem very logical to me.
I don't believe in spanking in general but when kids are young I think they can get a a quick pop on the behind (not hard) to let them know that thier behavior is unacceptable. When they are old enough for time out, then they get time out, say age 3 but every child is different. We do one two three magic for our little ones. It works most of the time unless it is the ADHD child. She tests the very limits. I remember the glare in my dad's eye when he hit us and I never want my kids to see that. I had bruises and belt marks many times. I know it was not spanking that he did and I know the difference but I also know how quickly one can turn into the other. That is why we use time out. It is time out for us too so that we can regroup. We have foster children so spanking is not an option for us anyway. We have had to learn other ways for behavior problems such as time out. I know this is a touchy subject and this is my opinion. I do not claim to know the answers to for everyone. This is just my humble opinion.
Dixiepeep38097.2285532407Megan: I'm sorry, I think maybe I was too harsh in my earlier reply to you. Sorry if I was.
Krobb: It sounds as if you used some wonderful, sensitive and effective discipline methods with your
children. I think you're right that one reason your methods worked was that you used them from the
beginning. If you use harsh punishments such as spanking even once, it changes the way the children
feel about their relationship with their parents and with good/bad or with society, in such a way that
non-punitive methods become less effective with those children (though they are still better than
continuing to spank).
The American Academy of Pediatrics said in their statement "Guidance for Effective Discipline":
"Although spanking may
immediately reduce or stop an undesired behavior, its
effectiveness decreases with subsequent use. The only way
to maintain the initial effect of spanking is to
systematically increase the intensity with which it is
delivered, which can quickly escalate into abuse. Thus,
at best, spanking is only effective when used in selective
infrequent situations."
"...and reliance on spanking as a
discipline approach makes other discipline strategies less
effective to use.19 Time-out and positive reinforcement of
other behaviors are more difficult to implement and take
longer to become effective when spanking has previously
been a primary method of discipline."
http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediat rics;101/4/723
People who have been spanked are more likely to jump quickly to the idea of some kind of punishment,
perhaps physical punishment, when someone does something they feel is unacceptable. This applies to
parents who were spanked as children: they're more likely to believe that spanking is a good idea for
their own children, than parents who had not been spanked. But it also applies in other situations.
For example: Children who have been physically abused are far more likely to physically attack other
children in kindergarten, but those who were considered not physically abused, but spanked, were still
twice as likely, compared to those who were not spanked, to physically attack other children in
kindergarten. This result can be seen, in graph form:
Start at Murray Straus' home page:
http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/
Under "PAPERS AVAILABLE", follow the link to "Corporal Punishment (CP), then the link to "Corporal
Punishment: Methods, Reviews, Critiques". Then select CP41 -- The Benefits of Avoiding Spanking:
New and More Definitive Evidence." (pdf format.) On the third page of this document (labelled page
195) is a graph showing the rate of physical attacks on other children in kindergarten by those who were
not spanked; those who were spanked but not considered physically abused; and by those who were
physically abused.
Someone who was spanked, when faced with someone else' actino which they perceive as wrong or
unfair, is more likely to think of using physical punishment. They are more likely to think "What can I do
that would hurt or punish this person to get them not to do things like that?" than they are to think of one
along some other lines such as:
"How can I convince this person that that wasn't a good thing to do?"
"Why did this person do that?"
"Can I bring myself to accept this person's behaviour?"
"Can I work with this person to find a solution we both like?"
"What can I do that will make this person feel grateful towards me so this person will want to avoid
behaviour that bothers me?"
"Does this person admit to having broken a rule?"
"How can I express my feelings convincingly and dramatically so this person will see clearly the impact on
me and be motivated to stop?"
"Can I involve authorities in the situation to sort things out?"
When your child is in kindergarten, and another child grabs a toy from them, do you want your child to
think first of using physical punishment against the other child? Or do you want your child to use one of
the above strategies, or some other strategy? What behaviour are you modelling by spanking?
I spanked my kids when they were little...today I can see that was not the best route.
My daughter spanked Jeffrey a couple of times and she realized that it did nothing but make him more angry . so we discussed what would be a better way of diciplining...taking away priviledges work with him.
Megan and Songwriter:It's true that physical punishment is sometimes effective in forcing or influencing someone to obey.
This is true whether it's physical punishment which is condoned by society (and I think parenting spanking
is the only physical punishment which is still generally condoned in my country) or whether it's a form of
punishment which is not condoned, such as children hitting other children; prison guards hitting prisoners;
spouse-beating etc.
However, discipline is not just about making someone obey. Discipline is about developing qualities in a
person such as: Self-discipline; patience; honesty and truthfulness; generosity; mercy and the ability
to forgive; courtesy; cleanliness; empathy and consideration; etc.
A child who has been taught self-discipline well does not hit other children and does not grow up to hit
co-workers, spouse etc.
While spanking may "work" for obedience in the short term or for particular rules, it doesn't tend to
promote the above-mentioned virtues in the long term. On the contrary: people who have been spanked
are more likely to hit other children in kindergarten or grow up to hit their spouse.
In an overall system, in combination with other methods such as setting a good example; being
consistent; explaining the reasons for things; logical consequences for some misbehaviours, etc.,.
spanking has sometimes been used effectively to get children to obey rules. However, there are better
alternatives which do not model violence.
If an overall system of discipline works well, the same system with the spanking removed or replaced by
a less violent punishment will generally also work well and will tend to produce better results in the long
term.
I just put up a web page (taken from a newsgroup post by someone else) which summarizes some
scientific studies which found that certain alternatives, such as placing a young child behind a low barrier
for a short time-out, were as effective or more effective than spanking.
Children sometimes obey and sometimes don't. When a child misbehaves again after a non-spanking
method has been used, some parents will jump to the conclusion that that method doesn't work. But
when a child misbehaves after being spanked, those same parents don't usually jump to the conclusion
that spanking doesn't work.
Actual studies, logging how often children misbehave, have found other methods equally or more
effective than spanking.
Spanking is not necessary.
My parenting home page:
http://www.ncf.ca/~an588/par_home.html
My page on scientific studies of effective alternatives to spanking:
http://www.ncf.ca/~an588/timeout.txt
Csmommy and "Out of my mind": the fact that you're coming onto a web forum to try to learn about better
ways to look after your children is a sign of what good people you are. Fortunately, there are a lot of
people who were spanked as children and who have grown up to be wonderful people, showing lots of
honesty, generosity, courtesy, self-discipline, patience, etc.
There are also lots of people who were not spanked as children and who have grown up as wonderful
people with wonderful qualities.
But when a parent is faced with a decision as to whether to spank his/her child or not, that parent doesn't
have the benefit of hindsight. He/she doesn't know how his/her child is going to turn out.
What the parent needs to know is: Is this decision going to increase or decrease my child's chances of
growing up as a decent, law-abiding, happy, contributing member of society?
The web page I just put up shows data from a study demonstrating that the more someone was
physically punished as a child, the more likely they were to drop out of school or commit crimes.
So although many people have been spanked and are wonderful people, apparently they've developed
their wonderful qualities in spite of, rather than because of, the spanking.
Csmommy said:
"I had no idea it was addictive."
Yes, I think most parents are unaware of this aspect of spanking.
unfortunately.
In most cases, as children mature and misbehave less for a variety of reasons, parents eventually quit
spanking.
However, in some cases, parents find themselves using harsher and harsher punishments, sometimes
becoming physically abusive towards their children.
The first time, or the first few times, that a child is spanked, it's a real shock to the child. However, as
time goes on, a child often becomes innured, learning to resist reacting, and the punishment becomes
less effective or ineffective. Parents then often react by escalating to a harsher punishment, which again
is a shock to the child at first but comes to be tolerated by the child later on.
People can learn to put up with incredible physical punishments in the name of defiance or in the name of
not allowing themselves to be manipulated.
As I say on my web page, spanking tends to prevent misbehaviour in one way, but at the same time
tends to promote misbehaviour in several other ways. So, the more one spanks, the more the children
misbehave in the long term. This misbehaviour is then felt by the parents as a need to spank more --
just as difficulties in breathing may be felt by a smoker as an urge to smoke.
http://www.ncf.ca/~an588/par_home.html
http://www.ncf.ca/~an588/spank.txt
csmommy responding to Rosina.
I had said:
> "Spanking is not necessary."
Csmommy replied:
> If you say to a child -if you do X you will get a spanking & they then do it a spanking is what they get.
This is always a choice on the part of a parent. A parent can choose to use spanking or not to use
spanking. There are many ways of raising children that use
no spanking at all.
I had said:
> "Also, it's clearly personal: it's something the parent is doing to the
child."
Csmommy replied:
> Aren't all forms of punishment something the parent is doing to the child? Perhaps it really is
something the child has earned by their own misbehavior.
No. Punishments (or "consequences" or "sanctions") vary in the degree of personal involvement.
For example, if a parent tells a child to go to their room as a punishement, and the child walks to his/her
room, then it is the child who is actually doing the action.
Here's a fictional example of a punishment which can be effective but with nobody "doing" anything to the
child:
Suppose a family all agrees that if someone is late for dinner, that person has
to wash and dry all the dishes themselves. Suppose then a child is late, and after dinner the child walks
into the kitchen and washes the dishes. This inconvenience can convince the child not to be late again.
But in this case, which parent is doing something to the child? What is the parent doing? If the child feels
angry about having to wash the dishes, against whom might the child take revenge?
Actually, when an agreement is made by the whole family like that, the children
are more likely to follow the rules, and more likely to calmly comply with the consequences if they do
break the rules. It's less likely the child would feel angry or want to take revenge on someone.
In this case, the dishwashing feels like a consequence of the child's lateness; not like an action that
someone is doing to punish the child.
I had said:
> "At the same time, a spanking gives a child long-lasting
information about how to push a parent's buttons."
Csmommy replied:
> Any type of reaction teaches this.
I disagree. Any reaction on the part of the parent teaches the child that the child has broken a rule, but it
does not necessarily give the child information that the parent has become upset, frustrated, pushed past
a point of tolerance, or has had his/her buttons pushed.
I learned some important things about discipline from Teresa Gallagher and have
used these principles to improve how I teach discipline to my own children.
Here's an example: suppose a parent is sitting in a fast-food restaurant and his/her child is playing in an
indoor playground inside the restaurant. Suppose the parent has told the child that if the child breaks a
rule, they will leave, and that rules include not hitting other children, and not going over a certain yellow
line around the playground.
An action suggested by Teresa is this: when the child breaks a rule, the parent says that it's time to go
and makes the child leave, meanwhile -- and this is important -- maintaining an air of supreme
indifference, not caring whether he/she stays in the restaurant, or whether a rule is broken and they
leave.
In this case, the action of the parent gives the child the message that the parent really means it, that if
rules are broken they will leave. But it tells the
child nothing about how to push the parent's buttons.
The parent's action gives the child no information as to whether the parent was
enjoying sitting in the restaurant and wanted to stay longer, or was looking for an excuse to leave.
It gives the child no information as to whether going over the yellow line was extremely important to the
parent -- bringing on fears that the child would be kidnapped or run over perhaps -- or whether it was a
relatively arbitrary rule that the parent was setting to make things slightly more convenient for the parent,
or to give the child practice in following rules, or because the employees of the restaurant insisted even
though the parent thought it was a silly rule.
So the child learns that breaking the rules means going home, but the child is left, perhaps, with no idea
as to whether breaking the rules comes as a reliefe to a parent looking for an excuse to leave, or
whether it evokes fear or whatever. So if, on another day, the child wants to punish the parent (or get
attention or stir up trouble or test whether the parent still loves the child), the child has not gained any
information about how to push the parent's buttons.
But there is no way of spanking without giving a child the message, "this is really important; you've gone
past my limits of toleration." Rightly or wrongly,
this is the message the child gets. And most of the time it's quite accurate.
Some children will later use this information when they're angry at their parents about something else
and want to do something to punish their parents.
I recommend Teresa Gallagher's web page on discipline of ADHD children:
http://borntoexplore.org/discipline.htm
You know my siblings and I were spanked as children....and yes we grew up as good citizens and adults...however my sister and I had pretty low self esteems for a long while. My brother was stronger then us but has grown up a a self serving type of person...and my youngest sister , who did not get many spankings because of a long uncertain illness has a good self esteem. Now that my sister and I are in our fifties we can look back and not blame anybody. I remember always spending my allowance on knick knacks for my Mother...was I trying to buy her love ...I don't know. Yes we spanked our children but after every spanking I went into my room and cried. At the time I thought that was the only way to discipline a child. Today I know there are better ways. Spankings do not work with Jeffrey...and many of the experts on ADHD do suggest no spankings on ADHD children. My daughter uses what discipline works at the time..be it go to his bedroom or have privileges taken away. We are seeing improvements...he may still have tantrums from time to time but not as many as he used too. Yes children do things to get back at their parent because at the time they are very angry and yes they must be responsible for their actions but we must also remember they are still in training and we are there to help guide them. I remember when my toddlers would say "I hate You" I would say I"I love you" And I also knew at that moment they did hate me but I didn't take it personal. I always liked the little sign I saw one day it was a picture of a child and the words above the head said "Be Patient...God isn't finished with me yet" We have found with Jeffrey that if he is to upset to talk we tell him to go to his room until he is calmed down...he does with much reluctance but knows balking will not work...after about 15 or 20 minutes he comes out and we talk about the problem. I think one reason my kids turned out so great is because my husband and I always kept communication open...if they asked questions they were always told the truth no matter how embarrassing for us to answer...ie..sex...birth control :)
I hate it when parents say I can't talk to my child he doesn't listen...Oh yes he does he just doesn't let you know he is listening. In the years of raising 3 children I have learned allot and one thing I have learned that spankings are not always the best way of discipline. I have a son who is a Chemical Engineer, a son in the AF, and a Daughter who is a manager at a hair salon. They are great kids and good parents I am so proud of them. Parenting is not easy ...it is the toughest challenge of your life. Another thing I learned is when your child argues with them...Listen...really Listen to what they have to say...sometimes their argument may mean something.
I also think Dr's and Psychologist have taken away our ability to use common sense. When Jeffrey was a year old the Well baby nurse told her to take him off of his bottle...my daughter looked at the nurse and said no...he is not ready yet. The nurse says all children are ready at a year...my daughter said not my son. he was on a night bottle until he was 17 months old(he never went to bed with a bottle we cuddled him in our lap until he was finished. When he was 17 months he took the bottle threw it at his mom and said NO...my daughter looked at me and I said time for a sippy cup of milk before bed...he was fine with that...see we waite until he was ready and everything went smoothly. Same with potty training...I had waited until my boys were three before I potty trained them(this was in the years when the Dr's said two was a good age...well my boys trained in a week ) Jeffrey's mom did the same thing and potty training was a breeze. He gave up his Binky late(4 yrs old) Nite and naps only...but when he gave them up he never asked for them again.
Oh My Gosh I see I have written a small novel...LOL...Thank You for letting me ramble:)
Folks,
It is my belief that spanking is one of the tools in the repretroir of behavior modification. But so are positive reinforcement, behavior charts, PET techniques and various other means to affect desired change.
With that said, each child is unique and requires a combination of techniques to help optimize their positive growth. Unfortunately, we don't always match the consequence to the undesired behavior. A swat on the bottom of a 4 year old who almost gets killed when they run out in front of a car is more than appropriate. But a swat or spanking of a 7 year old who refuses to eat or purposely drops their food on the floor is not. Food is the issue so the consequence should be food related (deprived of desert or sweets). A 5 year old who hits another kid should not be swat or spanked since this sort of reinforces the act of hitting (perhaps the punishment is being deprived of screens such as TV or Game Boy). Unfortunately, when we as parents are tired and frustrated we often react instead of taking the time to match the punishment to the crime. Of course the easiest one is the old 'hand to bottom'.
A child with ADHD changes the rules since they have far less impulse control then other children. ADHD kids don't necessarily care about the future (consequences) nor the past (previous experience) only about the next four seconds (my immediate needs and concerns). So you can spank until your hand (and their bottoms) get red but I doubt that you are going to affect the desired behavioral change.
I admit that I was a 'spanker' having been spanked as a child. But after attempting the same on my guy, I have to tell you that its a tool that is no longer part of my tool box. There are much more effective methods to effect change in an ADHD challenged child which many of the previous posts suggest.
I'm sorry if I sound like a broken record, but I really encourage everyone dealing with ADHD in their family to review this website: http://www.pediatricneurology.com/full.htm since it gives excellent advice on discipline and modifying undesired behavior of an ADHD child.
Paul
Paul,
Thanks for your post. I appreciate the website link you provided. Thanks!
Cindy: Thanks for your post about the dangers of using spanking to get a kid to bottle up their emotions. I think you're right. Re yelling: you might be interested in the pages I just put up on my website: "Why Not to Yell At Your Child" and "How to Not Yell at Your Child". http://www.ncf.ca/~an588/par_home.htmlDixiepeep: It's interesting to get a variety of points of view. Although you expressed the opinion that you consider spanking acceptable under some circumstances, I get the impression that you also agree with me that spanking is not necessary.
Dixiepeep said:
> It works most of the time unless it is the ADHD child. She tests the very limits.
I think this is a common characteristic of many ADHD children. I call it "persistence", a word from the book "Raising Your Spirited Child". Megan's brother is this way, apparently; and also some children who climb too high, fall and get hurt, and as soon as they recover (whether it's minutes or weeks later) are immediately climbing too high again.
I like to think of persistence as primarily a positive quality. I figure it's part of the spectrum of normal human variation, and that every society benefits from having a few people with this trait.
I like to think of Michael Faraday, the great scientist. He ran his experiments about electricity over and over again even though they kept failing.
Everyone told him to give up, that it would never work, but he kept on hundreds and hundreds of times, and finally discovered fundamental principles about the connection between electricity and magnetism - principles that were taught to me in university as "Maxwell's equations", not "Faraday's equations", because Faraday had a dyslexia-like problem and was unable to write his principles in the form of mathematical equations, so someone else got the credit.
There are other stories of people who were great because of their persistence. OK, I'm not a big fan of Kentucky Fried Chicken, but apparently Colonel Sanders showed great persistence, spending two years and asking over a thousand different restaurants before he found one who was willing to use his recipe on his terms. He didn't give up after the first "no", nor after the sixth "no", nor after the hundredth.
So when a child keeps on doing something after being punished once or a number of times, I see this as a characteristic which has a positive side to it.
The way I see it, some children will tend to change their behaviour after a small number of punishments or failures, while others will tend to change after a large number of punishments if the circumstances are right.
If it's going to take a large number of punishments, then it's much more important to do the punishments in an effective way: avoiding punishment and using positive methods if possible; making the punishments small, so as to minimize the resentment that will build up and undermine the discipline efforts; being very consistent; making them logical consequences if possible, etc.
Jacquie said:
>My daughter spanked Jeffrey a couple of times and she realized that it did nothing but make him more angry
This is a common pattern. I think spanking usually results in some resentment even if it's deep inside and not expressed. Anyway, a lot of spankings do. Then there can be a pattern of parent and child punishing each other back and forth, feuding endlessly, the way some wars go. A spanking can lead to more misbehaviour just as a child's misbehaviour can lead to a spanking.
Sometimes it's not so obvious that the misbehaviour came from the spanking. The misbehaviour might be a long time afterwards, in some sneaky way perhaps. A child might not repeat the same misbehaviours they were spanked for, but might keep coming up with new misbehaviours as a way to get back at their parents.
Sometimes the child turns the resentment inwards, towards themselves, leading to low self-esteem, which can lead to misbehaviour too.
Paul: interesting insights.
Megan said:
> I still am spanked...i don't think that there is anything wrong with me...you guys can judge for yourself...but.....i think if you do it when the child knows what they did wrong there is nothing wrong with it...but if you just do it then thats wrong...oh well....sorry
Megan: There's no need to apologize. You have a right to your opinion. Lots of people believe there is nothing wrong with spanking. You have a right to have this opinion and to post it to this thread, with or without arguments to support it. Nobody is saying there's anything wrong with you.
We're not here to judge people. We're here to judge the validity of the arguments for and against spanking.
Araujoperez: I'm glad you contributed to the discussion. I think the Parent Effectiveness Training approach is great and I use some of those methods part of the time. If you like PET, you might like TCS, which goes a bit too far in my opinion but has lots of great ideas too.
http://www.takingchildrenseriously.com
They believe in taking children's ideas seriously, without limit: even little babies' ideas. Even ideas like wanting to play in the snow without mittens on and stuff like that. They try to look after their children without ever forcing the children to do things the children don't want to do. This can require great creativity.
Everyone: thanks for keeping the posts here on this thread polite - discussing the subject matter and not attacking each others' character and stuff! This is great!
[QUOTE=Megan]I still am spanked...i don't think that there is anything wrong with me...you guys can judge for yourself...but.....i think if you do it when the child knows what they did wrong there is nothing wrong with it...but if you just do it then thats wrong...oh well....sorry[/QUOTE]
Megan dear, I am sure there is nothing wrong with you. You sound like you try very hard at home & it is my hope you have a few really good friends you can talk to about your siblings ADHD. I am sure they are much more fun then us old, complaining parents!
Go enjoy yourself.
We thrash around at the trolls who come on here and tell us we're poisoning our kids by giving them meds or even that adhd doesn't exist at all and we practically tear apart this board trying to make them stop. We do this so a newbie who comes on for the first time won't read that and run screaming away from her computer because she feels so bad that she is even THINKING about giving her kid meds and that maybe this adhd thing really is a fraud and she's the reason her child acts the way he/she does.
This is the same thing. Maybe there's some mom out there who doesn't know how she's going to control her ADHD kid. Nothing works, grounding, taking away computer games, nothing. She's spanked her kid and now she thinks that maybe the reason he's the way he is because she spanked him. I am not saying beat or hit. I'm saying spanked! Of course beating, hitting and manhandling will warp a kid! There is just such a big difference between the two! And no, I don't think spanking a kid sends the same message as beating a kid. I also think that kids are smart enough to know the difference between the two.
You also do your argument a disservice by not defining your terms and then addressing each one clearly. By calling beating "spanking" you hide the ugliness of the action. People agree or disagree that spanking is bad for kids but they still talk to each other. I could never agree that beating is good for a kid and I'd never talk politely to someone I knew beat their children.
Beating or hitting your child is an horrendous, ugly, unloving thing for a parent to do. Call a spade a spade and don't call it discipline, call it cruel, heartless and uncaring.
IMac38942.9121064815This should be in the debate section.
One thing I need to add. That one spanking I mentioned in the above post, well I don't remember it hurting at all so I don't think he spanked me hard. I do remember the humiliation and anger. I remember being so scared that I wet my pants. (I was probably 4 or 5 yrs. old) I remember my Dad even getting angrier because I peed on him. Serves him right. 
Oh, and by the way. That one spanking did the trick. If I was in one of my bawling throwing a fit stages all it would take was one word from him. Yup, he scared the crap out of me and I was afraid of him from that point on. Something changed that day, for sure.
Well, see...I have a bit of a problem with parents who use spanking as a regular way to discipline. They get so used to swatting, slapping hands, etc...that I really don't think they realize how hard they start spanking...like that lady in the store. (Actually several times I've seen this) I honestly don't think she had a clue just how awful that looked and how it jarred that little tots body. Every doctor in the past (not anymore because they don't condone spanking- most don't) would tell you it can cause injury to swat a child like that. It may not hurt their butt but it may hurt other areas.
Sorry Susie B, this is controversial. So do you suggest we stop posting on this thread? Meanwhile, I'm going to PM the Administration to please move this where it belongs.
Susie, this is different than meds, imo. It's people who don't believe in hitting kids, open hand, softly, at all and people who somehow think it's, for one reason, good discipline. I see a difference. A swat on the butt isn't going to do the damage that a swat with a belt on bare flesh. However, I know a few people who WERE hit who never do now because they'er afraid they'll lose control. It's easier to take that extra step if you start out hitting softly. For me, it makes no sense to spank at all. And, again, it's those who spank who seem to be on the defensive so you must have reservations yourself. If you feel this is a good way to raise your child, and if you aren't actually hurting the child, then nobody will bother you, but everyone judges life. I'm glad I didn't spank my autistic son when he was violent/raging. Maybe he wouldn't be he calm kid he is today. Who knows? I always think it's better to be safe than sorry. Do you think men should be able to hit women for their own good? To me it's the same thing. That used to be accepted too. Susie, if you feel good about your discipline methods, you don't need to justify yourself to anybody. If you maybe question you methods, then you maybe could use therapy to talk about alternative ways of discipline. Susie, if a newbie hits her kid a lot, and the kid has ADHD, she certainly isn't doing the kid any favors, even though that isn't the cause of the ADHD. And hitting can make any child worse. I can't define "good" and "bad" hitting because I think it's all bad. Just my opinion. OlderMom38828.8588425926
[QUOTE=susieb]Please answer these questions yes or no:
1) Has every person who was ever spanked grew up to be at the very least warped and at the most, cruel and vicious. Yes or No?
2) Has every person who wasn't spanked turned out to be loving, kind, generous and normal? Yes or No?
3) Is spanking the sole factor in whether your children grow up to be warped?
4) Is non-spanking the sole factor in whether your children grow up to be saints?
5) Is every parent who spanks a cruel, heartless person who just hasn't taken the time to think about how they are irrevocably harming their kid?
6) Is every parent who doesn't spank a kind and loving person?
7) Ever meet a parent who wouldn't dream of spanking their kid but has no problem with criticizing, belittling and embarrasing the same kid?
[/QUOTE]
Susieb, You know I like you but these are totally unfair questions. It isn't a a yes or no answer and you know it. You just can't use "every" and "sole factor" and extreme words like warped, saint, cruel, hearless. Come on.
this is my last post on this thread .YOU do not use any kind of object to spank,that is child abuse.the few times i smacked jude was 1 when he endengered himself and did it repeatibly even after i explained to him it was dangerous(he is not harry potter and cannot fly out of second floor windows)2 when he had a major meltdown(not crying but laughing hysteriquely and swinging from the curtains)to snap him out of it.both times he laughed so i guessed i did not hurt him,that is when i decided there was no point of spanking him.you do not slap faces either.
my final say,spanking an ADHD kid does not work but doing it does not mean you are a bad parent or an evil person
Here is a link I found interesting. I sure hope they move this thread cause now I'm interested in finding the studies these people refer to and I want to post anything both for or against spanking.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/spanking.htm
If you don't feel like reading here are a couple statements but it is a short article.
The Department of Health and Human Services and the New England Journal of Medicine estimate that 1,000 to 2,000 children die every year in the U.S. from corporal punishment that has escalated to a lethal level. They estimate that 142,000 are seriously injured annually.
142,000, wow that is a lot. I wish I could find where they got their statistics. Was it from poor families only?
We feel that corporal punishment of children is one of the most important, current, religiously-based, social conflicts. In the past, studies into spanking have been inconclusive. Those researchers who initially opposed spanking found that it was dangerous and ineffective. Those who initially supported spanking found that it was safe and effective. This is fairly common in such studies: the researchers' original opinions tend to be confirmed by the data that they collect. However, recent, longitudinal and objective studies seem to show that even moderate spanking can have devastating results for a minority of children -- particularly males -- when they reach adulthood. We suspect that when the results of some large, long-term behavioral studies become generally known, that many parents will discontinue spanking their children.The stakes are extremely high:
If corporal punishment advocates are correct, then the abandonment of spanking will significantly increase violence and criminal activity by the next generation of adults. If corporal punishment opponents are correct, then the abandonment of spanking will greatly decrease adult violence, mental illness, addiction, and criminal activity.[QUOTE=scotmama]this is my last post on this thread .YOU do not use any kind of object to spank,that is child abuse.the few times i smacked jude was 1 when he endengered himself and did it repeatibly even after i explained to him it was dangerous(he is not harry potter and cannot fly out of second floor windows)2 when he had a major meltdown(not crying but laughing hysteriquely and swinging from the curtains)to snap him out of it.both times he laughed so i guessed i did not hurt him,that is when i decided there was no point of spanking him.you do not slap faces either.
my final say,spanking an ADHD kid does not work but doing it does not mean you are a bad parent or an evil person
[/QUOTE] I agree with this and also agree it does not work. [QUOTE=scotmama]my final say,spanking an ADHD kid does not work but doing it does not mean you are a bad parent or an evil person
[/QUOTE]I agree totally with scotmama. My whole point is that there are so many shades of gray in this discussion and these shades are the reason for my seven questions. If you don't even try to acknowledge that, then you are doing a disservice to the newbie parents who read this. Last post for me, too.
Let me tell you why these question are presented so you get the answers YOU WANT.
[QUOTE=Auntie]
[QUOTE=susieb]Please answer these questions yes or no:
1) Has every person who was ever spanked grew up to be at the very least warped and at the most, cruel and vicious. Yes or No?
When you say "every" that means if my answer is 99.9% grow up to be warped but .1% don't then I have no choice but to answer NO.
When you use words like "warped, cruel, and vicious" I have to answer NO even if they grow up to have low self-esteem, have social inadequacies, or whatever but are not so called "warped or vicious".
2) Has every person who wasn't spanked turned out to be loving, kind, generous and normal? Yes or No?
Again, same thing. You said "every". If there is one out of a million that grew up to be a mass murderer then I have to answer NO.
I won't bother with the rest but your questions are phrased in such a way as the only possible answer is the answer you want.
3) Is spanking the sole factor in whether your children grow up to be warped?
4) Is non-spanking the sole factor in whether your children grow up to be saints?
5) Is every parent who spanks a cruel, heartless person who just hasn't taken the time to think about how they are irrevocably harming their kid?
6) Is every parent who doesn't spank a kind and loving person?
7) Ever meet a parent who wouldn't dream of spanking their kid but has no problem with criticizing, belittling and embarrasing the same kid?
[/QUOTE]
This is a relatively old forum I can see. The last post was almost exactly 2 years ago. For all I know no one will ever read this, but it feels good to get my opinion out there. The only reason I am on it is the fact that I am searching for evidence in a persuasive speech I am writing justifying spanking. (Im 15 years old in case you were wondering.)
I have read pretty much every post on here and even went to some links and I still believe spanking can be effective when used properly. I believe there is a limit between spanking and abuse and mainly victims of ineffective spanking will hit their spouse or other kids on the playground. Now I have found it typical from my research that kids who are spanked as children say it is effective and that they turned out "alright". Well, it is the same thing in my case. Heck I am still spanked. But the truth is I have found some problems with the way I am raised involving spanking. At the age that I am I typically dont care if I get spanked, which for me is a hard slap to the side of my face, and it doesn't really affect my behavior. They all say im in my rebellious years and I know I am and I dont really care about getting spanked, but the thing is I dont get into trouble that much...so if i do get spanked, it is really rare. I think one of the reasons that I dont get in trouble much is because of the spankings I got when I was little that helped me to learn what is right and wrong. One problem that I have found when I was younger is that a lot of times I got spanked with a lot anger at what I had done. I think you must be firm but not too angry or the motive might be mistaken. Also you should always give the reason when you spank and make sure it is clear. Also, especially for little kids, you need to spank immediately after the offense or spanking may not be the right option. Though as long as the motive for spanking is clear spanking is generally justified. Also spanking should be supplemented with a more lasting effect especially with older children. Like grounding or priveliges being taken away. I find the older a child gets the less spanking works and at my age I believe spanking is relatvely ineffective and it makes things worse most times. I think abuse is evident when hit too hard, hit in sensitive areas, hit for no apparent reason, or just plain hit too much. These kids..victims of abuse...are more likely to be the problem ones and as long as spanking is done cleanly and consistently then most kids will turn out fine. As for ADHD I have no experience with that.
Spanking or not the key for me is consistency. Say you are going to do something and then do it.
Uhh you may not have been able to follow that because I write my thoughts kind of spontaneously...as they come to me especially in just a forum like this...so well thats my opinion even though I doubt anyone will respond......maybe it will get this forum going again who knows...anyways I guess I dont know when to stop writing. Ok uh thats it then
sp1338826.9465162037The act of spanking is teaching that aggression is acceptable. Rosina what do you do to get your ADHD child to do what you need him to do.my father was a violent man and I am not, so your theory has some flaws.I have never spanked my 9 year old as I never needed to.I DID SPANKED MY adhd son until I realised it didn't do anything to him.I admit I have spanked him in anger and it makes me feel terrible but I am only human ,The question that comes to mind is 'What lesson do you want your child to learn when you spank?' Whats the message they are getting? I find these questions are really hard to answer. I find that what they learn is that parents are mean and want to hurt. I have spanked when they were younger, and regret it. I also found it didn't work. The only time it did work was when they went to run away from me. say when a car was coming, they scared me so I scolded and spanked to scare them enough not to do it again. I think spanking is a cop out, when we don't know what else to do, when our kids misbehave. With some thinking and planning about what you are going to do for negative behaviors the consequences are more fair and fit the crime better than spanking does. I hated being spanked, although it was rare. You tend to dislike your parents and blame them. It doesn't help your relationship any. Kids don't tend to communicate as well with parents that use spanking as a consequence. Good relationships with your children is what gets you through alot of difficulties in raising them to be responsible capable adults.I agree with you,momiss2,especially with ADHD kids.the only problem is sometimes you think and plan and it all goes out of the windows when he gets you really high or frustrated.I usually go in another room and shout and rave like a lunatic to myself.I also avoid situations when I know he is going to kick off and I am going to get frustrated.makes life easier.How does this teach self contol or problem solving except by vilance? I say after around 8-10 unsecessful anymore. I cared less as a child what discipline of any was given. Husband same way. Lots of kids today could care less what the consequences are. I try to use only for dangerous situations. Some kids get angrier when this is done. Our son is that way. I believe spanking is a personal choice for everyone. I also agree spanking may work for one child and not another. I believe that a child has done something he was warned not to do and the parent is calm or has calmed down there is nothing wrong with a spanking on the behind. I do not believe in giving it out of anger or "beating" your child. I also find it kind of ironic how children behave at school this day in time when they know there not going to get a spanking! Again a personal opion, my children don't get spanked often but I am firm believer of the verse "Spare the rod and spoil the child". And in my opion the "rod" is discipline!I have never had anyone on this site recomend spanking. I think out of desperation i think many of us has tried it. You know something? The anti-spankers on this board are equating a swat on the butt with what I call hitting or beating. I don't spank my child--it doesn't work and never has. I use what works. But I was swatted on the butt as a kid and I'm not an ax-murderer or a child beater. I think you either need to qualify what spanking is to you or stop posting. What you're saying about parents who spank and people who have been spanked are either lousy, abusive parents or cruel, criminal people. I reject that argument. First, it's just not true. Second it's a sweeping generalization and those are never true. If you want to say "spanking may..." I don't have any problems with that. I thought the starting post to this thread was very respectful of parents across the board whether or not they spank their children, however, they got really long winded and judgemental. There are too many parents on this board who are trying their hardest to raise and discipline their kids. They're hoping they're doing their best and some of them haven't found anything that works. So watch what you're saying about these parents. They don't deserve to have you folks come on here and talk like you are the superior parents and they're inferior and hurting their children! Try to be a little more considerate and a little more temperate. So Rosina, go jump off a cliff! This kind of forum doesn't need your judgementalism! And no, I'm not sorry if I offended anyone, at least not until someone is sorry they offended me! susieb38827.3917592593
I spank both my kids but more my younger as my 8 year old with ADHD doesn't respond to it that well. We mostly take things away from him and that seems to work. And when he tells lies we make him put soap in his mouth and sit for a while. He hates that, but boy it sure cleans his mouth out, lol! Most of the time I swat on the hands or something like that but it is so light I think my youngest it needs to be harder as he is always laughing telling me how it didn't hurt!
I think spanking is for some kids and not for other's. It all depends what works best for you and your kids!
IMac38942.9094212963probably nowadays you get sued for everything.I do remember a couple of cases when people smacked their kids in the supermarket and got charged,one of the fathers was not allowed to see his kids for months.crazyWell, I believe in spanking my children. My 10 yr old was spanked~he is an outstanding student and son. My 9 yr old~who is ADHD~was spanked and he also is an outstanding student and son. My 4 yr old daughter is also very well behaved. I was spanked and turned out great. Spare the rod spoil the child!! I believe that. Society is so screwed up today because parents are afraid of their children. My children dont't fear me but they do know what to expect from me if they do wrong. Their has to be diciplin and structure with any child~no matter what the condition. My ADHD son is not given any special privelages.
IMac38942.9102314815Dont get me wrong i was spanked and so were both my sisters it work on us oh boy i still cant ware a belt..
but my adhd daughter forget it!!! i can ground her take her toys, spank NOTHING works, her little brother is 2 and a half and he is starting to see the way she acts and now becoming part of it. I dont want to spank him beacuse hes still just a baby but there have been times when i have had to and it works for him, it compleatly melts my heart to she him cry after but it gets the message DONT get me wrong ive done this maybe 3 times. But when a child needs to be taught you have to do what works.. Answer to this scenario:
You are walking with your 3 year old child in a grocery store (not ADHD) and he pulls down a jar off of the shelf and it shatters on the floor. What do you do?
Here is what I would do; give them a small slap on the hand supplemented with a loud and definite NO! and if they cry just put them in the cart and let them stop crying. I would not give in to that and buy them a toy or whatever...they stop crying and thats how they will learn not to do that again. I would not stay angry at them, just help clean up and move on...as simple as that
What would you do?
SP13,please don't take it badly but you always have the best of plans when you are 15 and you don't have kids,once you have them putting the theory to practise is very hard.your scenario makes sense in theory but it will not work in practise especially with an ADHD child which is what all of us are dealing with.A child with ADHD knows right from wrong. I know my son cannot sit still and can not pay attention to most anything longer than 30 seconds. But believe me, he knows not to pull jars off the shelf. I wish he would!!! If you treat your child as "their the exception" because they have ADHD then they will never learn that there are consequences to their behavior. Make them take responsibility for what they do. A child should be taught that they can do anything no matter what barriers they may have to go through. But do not let them get away with things oh just because they have ADHD~its an excuse!![QUOTE=scotmama]SP13,please don't take it badly but you always have the best of plans when you are 15 and you don't have kids,once you have them putting the theory to practise is very hard.your scenario makes sense in theory but it will not work in practise especially with an ADHD child which is what all of us are dealing with.[/QUOTE] It's not hard not to spank a child. It's easy, unless, of course, you have anger problems yourself or were spanked as a child and it is an automatic reaction. I can't believe this debate is still going on, but, for anyone who believes psychiatry/pyscology at all, none are in favor of spanking. It was something parents did when they didn't know any better. We know better know. It's like when people smoked because they didn't know it caused cancer. Can't blame them. But anyone who smokes now knows the risks. As do parents who spank. Just because one person thinks it did him good (and people WANT to believe their parents did the right thing) doesn't believe another person will not respond very negatively to being hit. I am especially baffled when a violent child is hit. Teaches them a great lesson about self-control. I am never had the urge to smack my kids maybe because I was never smacked. And, goodness, I've never been in trouble with the law, even though I have bipolar. Wow. How could this be???? I'm anti-spanking. I support the psychiatric community in this, espsecially when a child has a disorder. A rod striking a child is not discipline--it's child abuse and can be prosecuted. Many parents try to use other terms to describe child abuse. If you hit another adult with a rod, you'd be in jail. If you're caught hitting a kid with a rod you will also be in jail. Ditto for a belt and other hard objects.
OlderMom38828.4501041667[QUOTE=sp13]Answer to this scenario:
You are walking with your 3 year old child in a grocery store (not ADHD) and he pulls down a jar off of the shelf and it shatters on the floor. What do you do?
Here is what I would do; give them a small slap on the hand supplemented with a loud and definite NO! and if they cry just put them in the cart and let them stop crying. I would not give in to that and buy them a toy or whatever...they stop crying and thats how they will learn not to do that again. I would not stay angry at them, just help clean up and move on...as simple as that
What would you do?
[/QUOTE] You report it to somebody who works at the store and they will clean it up. You think this never happens? Heck, I dropped a jar of jelly the other day (blushing). I was too careless and it fell. Your other alternative is to smack the kid, look silly to others (I've seen parents hit their kids in public and everyone kind of looks at each other and rolls his eyes). And you pray people like me around around because, if I see too much anger, I'm going to call CPS on the parent. The cell phone will come out and I'll call right then and there. I'm not alone either. I have many friends who would do the same, as would my hub, after he confronted the parent. To me, if they'll do that in public, I can only imagine what they do in private. OlderMom38828.4546990741[QUOTE=rhiannon]A child with ADHD knows right from wrong. I know my son cannot sit still and can not pay attention to most anything longer than 30 seconds. But believe me, he knows not to pull jars off the shelf. I wish he would!!! If you treat your child as "their the exception" because they have ADHD then they will never learn that there are consequences to their behavior. Make them take responsibility for what they do. A child should be taught that they can do anything no matter what barriers they may have to go through. But do not let them get away with things oh just because they have ADHD~its an excuse!![/QUOTE] A more senible punishment to this than a swat is to have the child clean up his mess. That makes sense and teaches more than a slap. No offense, but even my non-ADHD kids dropped slippery items by accident as three year olds. I can't believe anyone would get angry at a child for this, but, if you feel it's necesary, have the child clean up. Don't hit him. What's the point of that?Well, I live in Detroit and parents keep belts aroud their necks in public (so do some teachers). Times have changed so much. I was raised in California where if you look at your child in the wrong way someone is trying to call CPS on you. I can see if there is some real abuse going on. Going to the store when I was little I iknew the rules~dont touch nothing and dont ask for anything. I wouldn spank my kids for dropping a jar of something in a store but they'll be helping to clean it up. Accidents happen, and I dont want to sound like the mean mom on here. I know personalyy, my parents are divorced and my dad was the diciplinary and my mom was the one who let us do what we wanted. I always had a greater respect for my dad. My husband is not the diciplinary in the family and I can already see the difference between me and him with the kids. I respect my children and still I am able to teach them right from wrong~and yes I spank!! Its too bad things arent the way they used to be~when you did something wrong the neighbors will have already diciplined you in some way and have called your parents before they came home from work. I used to hate those days but I wish it was like that for my children.my last post to sp13 DID not mean i would spank my son in that scenario,I was talking in general and pointing out that it is different with ADHD KIDS,I know in this scenario jude would not react as written,bur i would not spank him either for a broken jar.I am not anti spanking but i believe that it is not the answer for a ADHD child.And coming from a violent childhood i know it did not me any good but there is a difference between a smack on the bottom and child abuse.having know what battering is I can tell you there is a huge difference.I woukd never subject my child to what i have been through.IMac38942.9106944444Please answer these questions yes or no:
1) Has every person who was ever spanked grew up to be at the very least warped and at the most, cruel and vicious. Yes or No?
2) Has every person who wasn't spanked turned out to be loving, kind, generous and normal? Yes or No?
3) Is spanking the sole factor in whether your children grow up to be warped?
4) Is non-spanking the sole factor in whether your children grow up to be saints?
5) Is every parent who spanks a cruel, heartless person who just hasn't taken the time to think about how they are irrevocably harming their kid?
6) Is every parent who doesn't spank a kind and loving person?
7) Ever meet a parent who wouldn't dream of spanking their kid but has no problem with criticizing, belittling and embarrasing the same kid?
This is a complex topic and you can't discuss it properly if you use sweeping generalizations like those above. I define spanking as a swat on the butt with your hand, as I think most people would. If you're using a stick or a belt to hit your kid, that's coming closer to abuse and I don't defend that. I also think it takes a whole lot more than spanking a kid to make him grow up warped, as well as it takes a whole lot more than NOT spanking to turn out a kind and responsible adult.
On a personal level, I don't discipline my child to suit the people at the grocery store who roll their eyes. My son know that if he acts up in public the punishment is going to come in public. I have told him that I will not sit in church and listen to him whine or watch him misbehave and not do anything because I don't want to embarrass myself by punishing him there. On the contrary, I have told him that if he misbehaves in church that I'll grab his hand and drag him down the middle aisle and out of church. I'm not going to wait until he disrupts half the service to take him aside and tell him how bad he's being. Even as far back as when he was 3, I had people telling me how well-behaved he is in public (and in church!).
He's not a bully, doesn't hit other kids, doesn't call names and doesn't torture small animals. However, I never call him stupid, lazy, worthless etc. He knows I love him more than life and he loves me, too. He knows it's my job to raise a kind and responsible adult and I'm not going ease up on him just 'cause someone might roll their eyes. Those people in the grocery store don't have to live with him and don't have to go to school with him. The discipline I dish out is suited to my kid and what I know he or she will respond to. My son doesn't respond to spankings as something that will teach him not to do something again. I make the punishment fit the crime. Foul language? Wash his mouth out with soap. Spray paint the back of the garage? Repaint the whole garage. You get the idea.
Now this is why I feel so strongly about this discussion being on this forum. There are parents who come here, senior members and newbies alike, and they're at their wits end, not knowing how they're going to control kids who seem to be spiraling out of control. They're trying to find a way to teach their kids to not do stupid things like pull their pants down on the bus, like my ds did last year. They're practically going crazy because nothing is working and now they get to read all about how spanking is harmful and warps a child on a permanent basis and then they start to think that maybe the way my kid acts is all my fault because I've spanked him! These parents are struggling too hard to raise their kids that they don't need the extra guilt trip this discussion can cause.
Here's what I would ask: please define spanking. Please use words like "may" and "might" instead of "will." Please don't talk like anyone who has ever spanked their child is a horrible parent. That's just not true and the newbies deserve more consideration than that.
IMac38942.9109027778Kids with disorders are made worse by getting hit. On top of that, violent kids can be driven to more violence by getting hit. I'm not in favor of even hitting a normal kid, but there's nothing good to come of spanking a child with difficulty controlling himself/herself. Not only is the message bad, but the kids are more sensitive and volatile than other kids. There are kids who were abused badly (I know this from foster care) who don't all turn out bad. That doesn't mean it's a good idea to abuse your child. People survive a lot, but those who have less of an ability to handle stress are not going to be able to shake things off so easily. And it may give them ideas. If parents who were spanked here are saying they have trouble not spaking their kids, what about kids who have control problems who are spanked? I say it's asking for trouble. I don't consider it discipline, punishment or anything at all like that. At any rate, it is illegal to get too rough with a kid in most states, and I'm glad the laws changed. At one time, it was considered just fine for men to slap their wives around to "teach them respect." Times change. For the record, I'm talking about those who do more than swat the kid on a padded, diapered butt and who continue up until older years. I would not report a parent who gave a young kid a small swat on a diapered butt. I'm taking a guess that parents who spank a lot, and in humiliating ways, are far more apt to also be emotionally abusive. In the big scheme of things, if a child has a serious disorder that causes out of control behavior, spanking won't help and the older they get, the less it will make a difference. In fact, I've known disturbed teens who got slapped for being mouthy and slapped their parents back. It's a short term, younger kid solution, if a solution at all. The days of whipping a kid in the woodshed are over--that is now considered abuse--and I'm one person who is very glad. No, I don't call my kids names. That is also abuse. Sometimes emotional abuse is as bad or worse--often it occurs together. In fact, usually it does. OlderMom38828.5869212963Please define "spank" and "hit." If they mean different things to you then please don't use them interchangeably. Spanking IS hitting. It's taking your hand and hitting your child. The degree of the hitting is a bigger issue to me or the frequency it's used. So if I hit my child on the butt, that's all it will take for him to grow up to be a warped human being?
Also, please answer questions 1-7 above.
IMac38942.9111689815I'm sorry Imac, which question are you talking about? And yes, I still want someone to answer 1-7. If you can't, then I don't see how your argument has any credibility.
IMac38942.9114583333Yes, I agree that this is right.
Susie, I am not going to answer every question above. We are talking about kids with disorders, many who have out of control behavior. Under the best of circumstances, spanking is considered by almost all the psychiatric community to be a bust, but I don't think a rap on a diapered butt will harm a toddler. I do think it becomes necessary to hit harder and harder as they get older and I've seen kids suddenly turn it on their parents, but we're talking about kids who have ADHD, bipolar, autism, etc. And these kids, imo, and probably in the opinion of almost all psychiatric professionals is that they shoudln't be spanked, that there are better ways to teach kids control. It is hard for me to say if kids who were knocked around also knock their kids around, but I do know that those who were spanked tend to be more prone to doing it. It's all they know. I don't feel it's healthy. And if I see a kid getting batted around in a mall, I will continue to call CPS. Again, this does NOT mean a kid who is two and gets a whack on a cushioned butt for running in the street. This is for the parent who feels dissed and slaps the kid hard, especially on the face---or in more vulnerable ways (pulling down pants) etc. Non-spankers are not defensive. Spankers always feel a need to defend their spanking. Why do you think that is? I'm seriously interested. Actually, I feel this thread should be in "Meds or no Meds." It's more a debate than anything. Do I think all spankers are evil? No. Do I think they are copping out and using a potentially dangerous method of "discipline" as they call it? Yes! You aren't building a way to discipline when the child is a teenager either. Susie, what do YOU consider a spanking? Is it a short whack on the butt? Is it using a belt? Some people consider a wack with a belt on a bare buttocks just a spanking, even if it leaves marks. The definition of a spanking is "iffy" at best. I'm glad I don't have to defend myself on the spanking front. We really dont' use this method, and my grown kids are all doing well. It's an unnecessary thing to do. Let the debate continue...lol. Again, this probably belongs on the debate board :) IMac38942.911875Thanks Imac. We choose our means of teaching our kids how to behave right. We set the example. I can't imagine the good of teaching the kids to hit. Then we tell them not to. Doesn't make sense to me. I was abused by teachers quite a bit in grade school and it made me rebellious, angry, and gave me a terrible attitude. My parents didn't spank me, nor did the teachers, but they threw me into walls and manhandled me a lot. No, it didn't make me behave better. If anything, it spurred me on to cause more trouble. Remember, I had early onset bipolar and you can't bully a kid with early onset bp into behaving. By high school I had no respect for teachers and had become a big class clown who didn't mind acting up in class. by then, manhandling kids had been outlawed so they couldn't throw me around. OlderMom38828.6287615741Where there is a debate, I will come....
I just want to say this. I was spanked once. ONCE. I will never forget it as long as I live. I was throwing a temper tantrum (typical of me as a kid) and my Dad had enough. I got spanked, my pants pulled down, and with his shaving strap and I'll never forget my family, including my Mom, all standing in a row watching...rather stunned I think. I was so angry that they didn't rescue me...that they stood and watched. I was humiliated. It was the worst moment of my life and to this day it bothers me.
Now, if it was that tramatic for me, what happens to kids that gets it over and over again? Do they just start repressing their feelings? What happens in their little minds? I worry about that.
With that said, I do think if a child is running out in the street a spanking may be necessary. For an ADHD kid, I don't know but in such a dangerous situation I think it may be worth the risk.
Other than a dangerous situations I do not agree with spanking at all. I am much like Oldermom, if I saw a parent in the store slap their child across their face for example, I would loose it. I HAVE seen parents slap their little 2 yr old so hard on the butt it was like seeing whip-lash happen! Not acceptable.
I guess I just feel that every other way should be tried before spanking in my opinion. However, if I know a parent uses reasonable - not abusive spanking then that is their decision...don't agree with it but their business.