self discipline | ADHD Information
I have been skimming these posts (what, you think I'm going to read every flippin' one). And I think the point Floof is trying to make is that meds alone can't make all the difference. I was on meds for awhile (long story short - couldn't handle all the side effects) and while it made a difference it didn't provide all the answers. You need a lot of other tools to make a difference, including whatever discipline you can muster. I'm sorry if someone already said this , I did not read all the preceding posts. One thing I've noticed which helps me sometimes behave as if I had more self-discipline.Routine, routines, normal repetitive task checklists that I repeat over and over. While they are often hard if not actually torture to establish--when I get into one of my routine 'modules' I don't need to think or stay on task mentally--because the routine is rote. I have for example my leaving the house on weekdays routine which is check bag, coffee to go, check attire, mental check off [took meds?, dogs kennelled?, lunch packed?, car keys?, doors locked?, wait---where's my wife?] in other words if something does not check off/out properly then my subconcious goes - HEY CHRIS - fix this.
The more routines the merrier. Speaking of which it is time for the Tuesday Judo Practice Night Afternoon Routine #2 so me and my self-discipline have to go fix an early dinner.
Gearhead < =""> um, i think you missed my whole entire point..Maybe, its been known to happen.[QUOTE=wickedmeowmer]
Now, I know there are severities and I KNOW that it manifests oddly in everyone. But its the idea that you really can overcome nearly anything in your head (because although its physical, ADD *IS* in our heads) if you want too.
[/QUOTE]
It's in our heads, yes - but not just in our minds. You seem to be confusing the two. It's a physical problem; the hardware isn't working properly; the frontal lobe is undersized; the chemical transmitters won't transmit the right chemicals in the right amounts. We're like a computer with a faulty chip on the mainboard; a car with a dodgy carburettor; a TV with a busted horizontal hold...
Sadly, willpower just won't fix us.
Mark -
exactly my point.[QUOTE=Mark Goode]Sadly, willpower just won't fix us.
Mark -
[/QUOTE]
*but* it can help us depending on how much we can train ourselves to have. We are not totally helpless. A one legged man *can* run a marathon, it's been done.
[QUOTE=Mark Goode]Sadly, willpower just won't fix us.
Mark -[/QUOTE]
Exactly! If
willpower could fix me, I'd not be having so many damn problems staying
on task at work, and all my bills would be payed on time. Oh, and I
wouldn't still be paying off a huge credit card debt thanks to my
compulsive spending habit, and I'd weigh a lot less too, since I'd be
able to resist that impulse to reach for a donut every single time one
is waved in my face. Not to mention all the exercise I'd be doing...
but this could go on for a while, so I'll stop. 
Sadly, willpower just won't fix us.
Mark -
[/QUOTE]
*but* it can help us depending on how much we can train ourselves to have. We are not totally helpless. A one legged man *can* run a marathon, it's been done.
[/QUOTE]
Well, actually he could try to hop a marathon - but he probably wouldn't get very far. To be able to run he would need artificial assistance - wheelchair, prosthetics, etc.
A good analogy, meds are our prosthetics (except here in England where you can't get 'em).
Mark -
that is my point!
i mean, to me, it sounds like floof is suggesting, simplified down, that we should not take meds, and should just hurt ourselves until we act normal.>> is this realistic?
it is weird for me to hear another ad/hder have such a philosophy...this is the similar to the philosophy my parents had, but neither of them have ad/hd....(i get it from my grandmother...)...to me this is a philosophy that someone without ad/hd would come to for a lack of understanding of it...
sonya_h38461.6556481481
just a little side joke: any trekkies in here?
why don't we all get klingon pain sticks and beat ourselves?
that is my point!
i mean, to me, it sounds like floof is suggesting, simplified down, that we should not take meds, and should just hurt ourselves until we act normal.>> is this realistic?
[/QUOTE]
Wait a minute. I take meds. They *help*. But they really cannot replace discipline. You do still need it. Even on meds.
You guys are stuck on the idea of being 'fixed' or 'normal', but that's really too much to ask of yourselves. That doesn't mean that discipline won't help you! Here comes another analogy:
You guys see people running marathons, and think "jeez I'd could never do that!" so you stop running altogether, ignoring that you'd be healthier if you still ran as much as you could.
[QUOTE=sonya_h]just a little side joke: any trekkies in here?
why don't we all get klingon pain sticks and beat ourselves?
[/QUOTE]
In short order, we'll make those Spartans look like pansies!
[QUOTE=floofthegoof]You guys see people running marathons, and think "jeez I'd could never do that!" so you stop running altogether, ignoring that you'd be healthier if you still ran as much as you could.[/QUOTE]
Well, actually I think "why the Hell should anyone want to run 26 miles when there's a perfectly good bus every half-hour?".
But you folks will have to continue this learned debate without me, it's midnight here and if I don't get my beauty sleep I'll get wrinkles.
Well, OK then - more wrinkles.. 
Mark -
Meds help me to to be better able to exert self discipline. They seem to be the bridge I need inside of my brain connecting 2 disconnected wires...when i am on proper meds, my self discipline comes alive...without my meds, i just don't have any self discipline....
sonya_h38461.6710069444geez!! it's only 7:05pm over here...i forget that we are spread across the world in different time zones... no wonder it gets so dead in here around 8, 9, 10 oclock, half of yall are sleep!! sonya_h38461.670462963yknow? i have fellow ad/hders that understand me spanning the globe!!
[QUOTE=floofthegoof]Wait a minute. I take meds. They *help*. But they
really cannot replace discipline. You do still need it. Even on meds.
You guys are stuck on the idea of being 'fixed' or 'normal', but that's really too much to ask of yourselves. That doesn't mean that discipline won't help you! Here comes another analogy:
You guys see people running marathons, and think "jeez I'd could
never do that!" so you stop running altogether, ignoring that
you'd be healthier if you still ran as much as you could.[/QUOTE]
Well, I know
I will never be "fixed", no one with ADD is. You can however learn to
cope better. We have to develop systems and routines that work for us.
We don't force ourselves to do something that seems damn near
impossible.
For example,
NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING, will make my current job bearable. All the
willpower and discipline in the world won't keep my mind from drifting
a million miles away when I am trying to get through a 20+ page
inventory report. 
However, that
doesn't mean I will give up working altogether. I am trying to find a
different job - one that will require less mental effort and more
physical effort, because that's what I am better at.
[QUOTE=floofthegoof]
You have to be willing to subject yourself to pain, until you can develop a certain tolerance to it. It is a skill that requires training, and like many things it comes easier to some people than others. ADDer's feel the pain more intensely when they must deny themselves pleasure. [/QUOTE]
Bugger that!
Mark -
Mark Goode38461.549525463that's an interesting philosophy floof....self inflicted torture...hmm....
but i was getting more at the gears that work in some of us ad/hder's brain....
phooey, i forgot my point...let me get right back to you after a think a while...
ok, here's my point. (i had to take a minute to think about it....)
it's more to do with some of the things my parents have said:
they used to ask me things like, "why don't you just pick it up once you are thinking bout it? like, once you see your pants on the floor, pick them up. just make yourself do it."
my point is, normal people "make themselves do" anything that needs to be done. with ad/hders, that's the whole problem. we can't seem to "make ourselves do it."...
mainly because of what Mark said, our brains go too fast. Yes, for a slit second we are thinking about the pants we just took off...but then before we have a chance act on that thought of where to put them, we are thinking about the next activity...putting on the pajamas and leaving the room to watch a late night movie..(for instance.)...and the pants remain on the floor...
and also, over focus....i.e, we are so focused on that watching that gory late night movie, that we don't think about our pants. Our brains just go too fast.
most of us, (those of us who have a problem with this) have tried over and over and over and over, to stop and think about what needs to be done...
but that's just the whole problem. WE CAN'T. if we could, then we would, the pant's would not still be on the floor...
some of us NEED MEDS,or other type of treatment, SOME FORM OF HELP, to get ourselves/our brains to function close to where normal people's function.....
some ad/hders need help....not all of us can just force ourselves to be normal....
sonya_h38461.5616203704 [QUOTE=sonya_h]some ad/hders need help....not all of us can just force ourselves to be normal....
[/QUOTE]I can't force myself to be normal either. What I can do, is improve the situation in babysteps. Try this: open the little windows clock on your computer and watch the second hand. For 15 seconds do not blink. Feel the pain in your eyes, and have a good attitude about it. Realize it's not going to kill you. If you can endure this, then you have learned something.
Then tomorrow, after recuperating from the above excersize, do something really painful, and clean a room in your house. It's not that you can't do it, it's that you can't take the pain. If some whacko cleaning nazi came into your house and threatened you with a gun, telling you to pick up this or that, you could do it, but you can't do it for yourself. It's because it's painful. Clean the room, and don't stop for anything, even if you begin tearing up from the agony. Don't shy away from the pain. Recognize it's there, and accept it. Not long after this, you will have a very good feeling about yourself. Try to connect this feeling with the pain you endured, and realize that you can't have the good without the bad.
ADDer's HATE it when people start talking about discipline, because they have heard exactly that their whole life, and it never did them any good. These people harping on them have no idea how difficult it is, and it's impossible to explain it to them. That doesn't mean that they are actually wrong though. It's just that ADDers are trying to measure themselves to the 'normal' standard, find they can't do it, and then they give up. You can't give up though, because even if you can't make Mom happy, you can still benefit from the effort. And over time, you get better and better. Normal is not something you want. You want 'better'.
"Driven to Distraction" calls this the Cough Drop Syndrome.
Hallowell talks about this one woman who was complaining to him about a cough drop she had left on the dashboard of her car. Everytime she noticed it, she would tell herself that she would throw it away the next time she got out of the car. Several gas stations, grocery store trips, and other misc. errands later, the damn thing was still sitting on her dashboard. She said that in the span of time it took for her to look away from the cough drop, the thought would be gone.
I thought "AHA!!!" THAT's one of my biggest problems. My parents used to ask me why I hadn't done whatever it was they had asked me to do yet, and I'd tell them I forgot. They'd say, "how could you forget, I told you 5 minutes ago!"
We are jsut thinking about too many other things, whether it is something we'd rather be doing, OR we are actually focusing too hard on what we are already doing.
I keep a little container of Tylenol in my purse. I will be sitting on the couch, pleasantly working away at my cross-stitch, and suddenly remember that that container needs to be re-filled. By the time I've finished my next stitch, the thought is GONE.
exactly...the question is, how can "self discipline" help this? (in response to bcgirl)
My opinion? it can't, not to SOME (dare I say, MOST?)of us anyway. Self discipline does not do anything to help these...
if we could actually force our minds to slow down enough to think, then we would not have ad/hd. our whole problem is that we need our minds to come back to earth. and we just can't do that. that's where the "disorder" comes in...if we could do it, we would not have a "disorder".....(still having trouble wording what i'm trying to say....bad day today)
[QUOTE=bcgirl1978]"Driven to Distraction" calls this the Cough Drop Syndrome.
[/QUOTE]
I know we're getting a little off the 'self flagellation' topic here, but hopefully we'll be forgiven.
My pet hate is what I'll call the 'Aspirin Syndrome' - where you have a headache, and decide you need aspirin. You go and get your aspirin, then - some time later you wonder whether you took the aspirin, or if you just drank the water... so you search around your medicine cabinet to see if you can find any loose aspirin... headache's still there - should you take some more? Or hope that you took them the first time and the headache will soon go away? I dunno about you folks, but this drives me nuts!
Mark -
um...self inflicted pain is not is not what i was referring to when i meant "self discipline"..... sonya_h38461.6003009259 [QUOTE=sonya_h]um...self inflicted pain is not "self discipline".....[/QUOTE]Absolutely it is! Never forget it!
An old behavior sheet thingy I had, had a good idea. Maybe it will work...try a 'mental chalkboard' like everytime you have a thought to do something 'write it down' on the 'chalkboard'. I swear this sounds sooo hokey as I say it, but it works. With enough practice I can even prioratize things now, (with mental checks and stars, I'm not even kidding) its like the pnemonic devices many of us prolly used as kids.
Sorry if this sounds mean, but I really do hate to see the ADHD people who live in a disarray of life (dirt, bad hygiene, bad grades, social retardation) and just constantly chalk it up to the one problem. I think its the reason less understanding people dub us lazy, stupid, etc. Maybe if your problem extends beyond short attention or a surplus of energy (and you are a full fledged adult) I'd seek help for other issues.
[QUOTE=floofthegoof] [QUOTE=sonya_h]um...self inflicted pain is not "self discipline".....[/QUOTE]
Absolutely it is! Never forget it!
[/QUOTE]
Rich, you're beginning to worry me...
Mark -
me too.
[QUOTE=Mark Goode][QUOTE=floofthegoof] [QUOTE=sonya_h]um...self inflicted pain is not "self discipline".....[/QUOTE]
Absolutely it is! Never forget it!
[/QUOTE]
Rich, you're beginning to worry me...
Mark -
[/QUOTE]You know, I always find this a tough sell, but it's true!
[QUOTE=floofthegoof] [QUOTE=Mark Goode]
Rich, you're beginning to worry me...
Mark -
[/QUOTE]
You know, I always find this a tough sell, but it's true!
[/QUOTE]
Well, if you can sell it, you could make a bloody fortune as a salesman - trust me on this.
Mark -
Also, I see a TON of people on this board (not just sonya) comparing ADD/HD with eyeglasses and like...diabetes. Um, yeah...riiiiight. I DO accept its exsistence. Hello! without meds and some practice with little tricks I'd be a complete space cadet (not just the 80% cadet I am today. LOL)
We CAN compare ADD/HD to say, depression, anxiety...maybe even alcohoism or eating disorders...but we really need to start separating brain malfunction with other physical ailments. Its stupid, like the old saying goes...apples and oranges.
Anyway, since I have nothing to do until I leave at 5, let me illustrate something. Two young boys grow up, both have ADHD, same parents, same situations (yes I know them, its not theoretical) One is dead now, years of drug abuse...dead end jobs, etc. The other, with a few set backs, raised a great family, holds jobs well, gets along great with nearly everyone he meets.
Now, I know there are severities and I KNOW that it manifests oddly in everyone. But its the idea that you really can overcome nearly anything in your head (because although its physical, ADD *IS* in our heads) if you want too. Does it take help? Yes. Does it take professionals? Yes. Does it takes Meds? For some, YES!
K, I'm done. Hope people saw this more as me trying to inspire the hopeless instead of me being a horrific biznatch.
[QUOTE=sonya_h]
i notice a difference of opinions on the big "self discipline" issue...
care to discuss them?
some of you like to have your hard self discipline..
me personally, if i had good self discipline, i would not even be here in this group!
I hate when people tell me that, "sonya, you need to excersice more self control", or, "you need to have more self discipline"...
I CAN'T! I HAVE AD/HD! THAT MY WHOLE PROBLEM! (hellloooo, thats what the "impulsivity" is, a lack of mental self control to a certain extent...)
to me, that's like telling some one who needs glasses..."you need to just see better".....or some one with tourettes, "you should simply stop your ticcing..."..
if it was just THAT EASY, then this would not be an issue...
that's just my little 2 cents...any one care to join in on this discussion?
[/QUOTE]i agree with gypsywomyn also...i need positive reinforcement...i don't thrive well under negativity..
I'm with Floof. I can't pull up more than an hour or so of mental effort a day (normally), but I can pull through 6+ hours a day of hard testing or physical effort. 9/10th of the effort in ADD is trying to make yourself as responsible to yourself as you are to others. I've found meditation helps expand my attention span a bit.
Frustration, frustration, frustration . . .
You just have to keep trying. It's hard.
[quote=sonya_h]Meds help me to to be better able to exert self discipline. They seem to be the bridge I need inside of my brain connecting 2 disconnected wires...when i am on proper meds, my self discipline comes alive...without my meds, i just don't have any self discipline....[/quote]
Exactly, Sonya! Self-discipline can be learned, only many need meds to help. You just said so yourself. I believe that is precisely what Floof has been saying ... only in different words.
Floof, the only thing I don't care to compare self-discipline with is 'pain.' I would prefer using the terms: Distress, Uneasiness, or Discomfort...but PAIN, uh huh...doesn't work for me.
Has too much of a negative connotation for me. And I personally need all the 'positive' reinforcement (thoughts) I can get.
It actually seems to me you're all basically saying the same thing, only in different terms.
[quote=JerBer]I have been skimming these posts (what, you think I'm going to read every flippin' one). And I think the point Floof is trying to make is that meds alone can't make all the difference. I was on meds for awhile (long story short - couldn't handle all the side effects) and while it made a difference it didn't provide all the answers. You need a lot of other tools to make a difference, including whatever discipline you can muster. [/quote]
This is precisely what I've repeated over and over on this board. Meds do not work alone...we must work with them. Meds gives many of us the ability to utilize tools and skills that help us with discipline.
[quote=sonya_h] ...if you could actually force yourself to stop and think, then it you would not be acting on impulse, and you would not have a problem, you know?...
... if i could force myself to control myself, then i would not have ad/hd, and there would be no problem...[/quote]
Before I was on meds for AD/HD, I learned some skills and tools in group counseling that have helped me, among other things requiring self-discipline (or 'learning'), to think before speaking and therefore not regretting later what I've said.
This came from what I believe is 'self-discipline' or will power. Not easy, but can be done. Through self-mastery, done enough times, even with unmedicated AD/HD, from my experience, a new habit can be learned. 
Even if it's related to ADHD. Really! 
So, Sonya, I believe it is possible to 'force' your self to stop and think... even with ADHD. It just takes practice, practice, practice and will power! And of course, meds help you to focus enough to stop and think.
Okay, class is over...you're all dismissed.
GypsyWomyn38461.8468171296 [QUOTE=Mark Goode]
[QUOTE=floofthegoof]You have to be willing to subject yourself to pain, until you can develop a certain tolerance to it. It is a skill that requires training, and like many things it comes easier to some people than others. ADDer's feel the pain more intensely when they must deny themselves pleasure. [/QUOTE]
Bugger that!
Mark -
[/QUOTE]Hi, the Long Winded Wind Bag is posting again and proud of it. I've made larger spaces in case that might help.
I think "Booger that" too. However, I do understand much of what Floof is saying. I just don't think one has to subject themselves to pain or accept pain to achieve something or work at bettering something, and I mean that with all due respect because great pain is something some here have deeply felt with this ADHD sh*t. Why torture yourselves, percieve a situation differently. Trick your mind. What have you got to lose? I do not choose to want to be miserable or low in self esteem any more due to this. Those days are gone.
Floof is right that to get better at something takes much desire and practice. For me, repetition seems to help and as often as possible. So, I intentionally PUSH MYSELF and it's really hard at first to start with even a baby step in the right direction.
Maybe some feel they need to go through pain or embrace it and accept it, but I'm not one of them--been there and screw that! I also make things into a little game for me. That way it's not as icky but a little edge of me perceiving it as more fun, I suppose, and any way I can possibly try to make it fun, even if it's just a tiny spec of fun.
This is going to sound extremely ignorant and immature, but we're all very familar with those qualities, anyhoo, if I know I have to do something and the thought is willing but for some reason I just cannot make a move in the direction to do something, like I'm mentally stuck in glue and can't proceed. So, my imagination starts taking over and I create this whole adventure story in my mind and like a mini episode of a Romancing the Stone type scene or maybe some imaginary guy I like and I are on a total dangerous yet exciting adventure and succeeding depends on me getting that task accomplished OR maybe I get 20 million dollars if I get it done within 60 seconds or two hours or whatever. It's really stupid sounding but maybe I just got tired of beating myself up mentally so I "crossed over" into Adventureville. What's so bad about that? Well, to me nothing. Might as well enjoy doing things in the process instead of hating myself for thinking I'm having problems. No thanks! Life's too short.
Also, if I know I'm forgetful then as soon as I KNOW something needs to be done or completed a certain way or whatever, I write it down and cross things off as I do them. I keep the pen and paper with me, in my pocket or a the paper where I can see it.
This wouldn't hurt either, if you're feeling like a loser or like crap, push that nonsense out of your mind and immediate, RIGHT THEN AND THERE, either write it or think it but remind yourself of some of your accomplishments, great or small because they do indeed count.
If there's one thing I do know or at least believe in, and that is for all of my short comings, I honestly believe that our minds, imperfections and all, are far more powerful then we can possibly begin to know.
I do all I can to turn a weakness somehow into a strength and just go from there. We all know what works for us and it didn't happen over night, more like through YEARS of having a desire to figure out how to get around things and just turn a weakness into a strength. Turn a negative into a positive ANY WAY YOU CAN and HOWEVER IS BEST FOR YOU.
Believe me when I tell you that a physical excersice routine after about one month of dedication to it truly works magical wonders for me to think more clearly and far more on task, but I have to get to a certain point of working out regularly before that starts kicking in and that's what I become addicted to, it's like a drug addict knowing he's going to get his fix.
I'm sure I look totally unstable for sharing that, but I assure you it's just a game I play to make doing things funner instead of hell, and as a result, I feel less negative and have great adventures, get more done, and more money then Bill Gates now.
I do all I can to have positive thoughts and push out negatives. I do all I can to always BELIEVE things are getting better and that there is always hope. In the morning first thing to start the day or if I'm facing something icky, I now automatically flash the words in my mind and believe in them, "I have more control over my life then I think I do." and I just repeat it over and over until I forget to, which is about after 5 times, but so what, it's still a good thing and it helps with inner peace.
totally agree with you, goldenmoment...(i tried to read as much of that as i could, i'm sleepy, i promise i will read it more thorouly tomorrow)
why is it that most of us excel in the arts, or something else we like? because we enjoy it! when i find ways to take the pain out of my tasks, like listening to music while i work, or, making a game out of cleaning...then it is easier for us to get the job done...
the "pain inflicting" thing floof is talking about kind of sounds like a strange "coping mechinism" to me...
science has proven that adrenaline helps the ad/hd brain to function for a short while in the areas that are lacking....
that is why some of us are addicted SUBCONCIOUSLY to mind rushing, adrenaline pumping things...some of simply like to start arguments with our loved ones, because it gives our brains a quick rush and makes us think clearly for a little while....
then some of us are driven to even more intense things, i.e. bungee jumping...maybe floof's "self pain" is subconcious adrenaline booster that gets his brain pumping enough to get stuff done?...just a thought I wanted to put out there....
I just made up a proverb."Pain will never hurt you."
Me.
floofthegoof38462.2602199074
well floof, as long as you have something that works for you, then that's all that's important.
i do agree with you, self discipline and self control is necessary to cope with ad/hd...i just can't seem to muster up much until i have had my meds....i have tried to, and the only way i can get it together is when i'm on my meds...once i'm on my meds, i am able to muster up plenty of self discipline....(if i could muster some self discipline without meds, my house would be clean right now
)
but that pain thing? as long as it works for you buddy, that's what's important!!!
I've done certain things to become more self-disciplined, like setting the alarm clock away from the bed, breaking up tasks - play on the computer, vaccuum, play on the computer, put away the dishes, etc. I've also created structure with rewards for myself - for example, I do the bills and fold the laundry while watching a rented movie once a week, etc.
I personally have great self-discipline when it comes to NOT doing something.
I quit smoking can usually (sometimes??) refuse those donuts, etc. However my discipline when it comes to actually DOING something sucks! Alot of the time it is the "Cough drop effect" and sometimes I just can't force myself to do it, like my taxes .
I think will power and self discipline are different things though, related things, but different. I totally get what you are saying though. I have no problems denying myself things I think would be bad, but it takes additional effort to do something I don't wanna do, EVEN if I think it would result in something excellent.
But I am getting much better. Thats what my old post was about, I'm sad to read so many people seem to be drowning in their heads. Thats how I used to feel sometimes, a little hopeless...letting myself be mediocre or laze about, but would would we have if the ADD/HD greats did that! We'd have missed out on some great stuff.
Hmmm, grrrrrr, trying to explain my thoughts (yeah, a def weakness)
Okay. 1. I DO agree ADD/HD is a mental miswiring, a physical element. BUT so is nearly every other 'head case' (and I mean that so nicely, LOL) out there. Its been proven alcoholics and anorexics, people who are clinically depressed and the like *also* have miswirings in the brain. I'm not saying anyone can 'get over' any of these disorders, BUT there are people who live normal, productive lives, even happy lives with alcoholism, anxiety or other clinical issues in there life.
2. I am just saying that ADD/HD'ers should not just say 'ooops, that just how I am, can't change my dirtiness, job cycle (insert horrible problem here)' Thats weak. There's help. I'm proof. People can change even if there is a physical ailment. I'm sorry you can't get the drugs you need though (a new carbourator or main board chip, if you will :-D) That bites hard.
[QUOTE=Mark Goode][QUOTE=wickedmeowmer]
Now, I know there are severities and I KNOW that it manifests oddly in everyone. But its the idea that you really can overcome nearly anything in your head (because although its physical, ADD *IS* in our heads) if you want too.
[/QUOTE]
It's in our heads, yes - but not just in our minds. You seem to be confusing the two. It's a physical problem; the hardware isn't working properly; the frontal lobe is undersized; the chemical transmitters won't transmit the right chemicals in the right amounts. We're like a computer with a faulty chip on the mainboard; a car with a dodgy carburettor; a TV with a busted horizontal hold...
Sadly, willpower just won't fix us.
Mark -
[/QUOTE] Self-discipline and impulsiveness are not opposing behavioral absolutes. They are endpoints on a continuum of behavior. It's self-defeating to say I'm ADHD, therefore I'm impulsive and there's nothing I can do about it. We may never be "normal", but we can be better. If you focus on perfection or normal, you're bound to be disappointed. I just read an article about a guy who runs ultra-marathons. He said he breaks his runs up mentally into mini-runs of 100 paces. If he was to focus on the fact that he has another 149 miles to go, he would never make it. But this way he knows he can always manage another 100 paces.Whether it's developing routines, giving yourself rewards, establishing rules for yourself or taking preventive measures (like leaving your credit card at home unless you're going out to make a specific purchase), most of us will be able to improve our lives. And that's what it's all about.
"I'm ADHD therefore I'm impulsive". Hmm...
18 months ago I had never heard of ADHD. I've been impulsive for as long as I can remember. I've certainly never used ADHD as an excuse - until a little over a year ago I HAD no excuse; I was just lazy, unmotivated, blah blah blah, and alround a***hole. ADHD was a revelation - it wasn't an excuse, here at last was an explanation! This was why I just couldn't do the things that should have been so trivially easy.
I've been hearing this "change yourself; you can do it if you try" crap for 40 years! And I'm sick to death of it.
Excuse the rant.
Mark -
[quote=wickedmeowmer]I think will power and self discipline are different things though, related things, but different...[/quote]Here I go with semantics. Technically, will power and self-discipline mean the same thing. However, I believe it takes will power to achieve self-discipline.
Uh, so where was I going with this? Hmmmm...darned if I know.
Another thought lost to the cosmos.
[quote=floofthegoof]Wait a minute. I take meds. They *help*. But they really cannot replace discipline. You do still need it. Even on meds. [/quote]
THIS I totally agree with, floof.GypsyWomyn38462.4524537037Mark,
With all due respect, I think you're missing the point. All of us (or at least most of us) understand that there is a problem with the way our brains are wired. And, we realize that there is no magical pill that will cure us. One of the major purposes of this forum is to trade ideas about things we have found helpful in enabling us to compensate. There are things out there that may work for me and not for you, and vice versa. But just because something has not been helpful for you is no reason to dismiss it as pure garbage that will not be helpful for anyone else.
CB
[QUOTE=constantbattle]Mark,
With all due respect, I think you're missing the point.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah, apologies if I was in your face (or anyone else's) - the frustration boils over sometimes. I have a whole library of 'self help' books that I've accumulated over the years, each one representing another attempt to turn my life around...
I can't even read them.
Anyhow, just ignore me - I seem to be having a bad night.
Mark -
a bad night? still so intrigueing, its midday here! (meaning i just woke up...)
but, mark, i feel as if you were the only one who really got the point i was trying to make in the very first place, so don't worry.
I hated so bad when people tell me to "just try harder" and "just excercise self control" as if it was that simple...they seemed to ignore the fact that i was already putting up as much willpower as i could possibly muster...
to be continuelly trying as hard as I can and to continueally fail, and have people constantly tell me to "try harder" "it's so easy, just do it (courtesy of my mom), "just excersice control", "just do it", and act like I was being lazy when I WAS trying so hard, has made me bitter.
I do not disagree with the fact that we always need to put forth some effort to be self disciplined. it's just that's not a cure. it is however A BIG HELP....
but as mark says, there are still some miswirings in there, and no matter how much self discipline we put up, it is not going to cure those miswirings.
we do have to keep trying..
my personal experience for myself, if i can discipline myself to take that pill in the morning, then I can go from there..
[QUOTE=sonya_h]...my personal experience for myself, if i can discipline myself to take that pill in the morning, then I can go from there..[/QUOTE]Right on! That discipline to taking your pills is a biggie! I may take mine, but forget sometimes if I did. I have a pill box marked with each day AM/PM...but don't always remember to fill it.
Me too. I have to use a huge pill box with 7 days of the week all filled with my weekly pills on Sunday. Then I keep it in plain site and keep spares with me in case I leave the house and forgot to take them. I need one of those pill alarms.
[quote] So, my imagination starts taking over and I create this whole adventure
story in my mind and like a mini episode of a Romancing the Stone type
scene or maybe some imaginary guy I like and I are on a total dangerous
yet exciting adventure and succeeding depends on me getting that task
accomplished OR maybe I get 20 million dollars if I get it done within
60 seconds or two hours or whatever. [/quote]Ha! I actually keep movie soundtracks around for this. . .
[QUOTE=floofthegoof]
ADDr's appear to be undisciplined, but that's not true. If they show up for work, it's because they fought themselves and won. That's discipline!
I always say this about discipline:
I need 3 times the discipline as a normal person to function at the same level, but I can't get mad at myself if I can only manage 2 times.
[/QUOTE]
but that takes so much energy! I can function at normal-people level for about a day or two, then I'm useless for the rest of the week. It's soooo frustrating to try to write a paper when it takes so much energy just to sit your butt in the chair, then you actually have to find information, then process it, then spit it back out again in coherent form. No wonder we procrastinate!
[QUOTE=illhtac]but that takes so much energy! I can function at normal-people level for about a day or two, then I'm useless for the rest of the week. It's soooo frustrating to try to write a paper when it takes so much energy just to sit your butt in the chair, then you actually have to find information, then process it, then spit it back out again in coherent form. No wonder we procrastinate![/QUOTE]
Tell me about it! You have the right idea though, if one can get a few productive days out of the week, that's better than none. Keep a light schedule if possible. Go for quality over quantity.
I used to get all excited about assignments at uni, and go and get 10 books from the library. Unfortunately it is a 12 story library at my uni, so by the time I had made the effort to look up books, go and find them all, borrow them, take them home I was over it, and then wouldn't get around to reading the books or doing the assignment.
I never took them back on time, it's very annoying to get a library fine for books you never even read!
i agree with illtac. some of us have a bigger problem with self discipline than others do.
I lack "self discipline'....i lack the components in my head to put it together...luckily it's not so bad. i'm not just totally ruthless or nothing..
however, I was slightly ruthless going through puberty...i had many many many boyfriends, and was slightly 'loose"...
I also lacked the ability to force myself to do things...forcing myself did not work. the meds helped, they seemed to connected my brain to the rest of my body....
if i had no problem with self discipline, then i would not have a lot of the problems that i have today...
I had NO self discipline when younger because I guess I just thought I was spacey or dumb, but I knew I wasn't dumb, but on the other hand, why wasn't I as sharp and detailed as others??? On the other hand, I could figure things out in my own way and then run with it. In fact, I would not really be taken that seriously by those who thought I was kind of a space case and then really throw them for a loopy when I achieved something they had no clue about or could never figure out.
I had to work so very hard through the years to achieve what I felt for me was a goal and important, which to me was self discipline. That has helped me more then anything. On the other hand, I was always rather stubborn, BOUND AND DETERMINED TO DO SOMETHING if someone told me I couldn't because I got tired of feeling like a weenie. I got tired of not being taken seriously to some extent and with certain people along the way in life.
Maybe it was because I was going to prove to MYSELF that I wasn't stupid and that I could do anything anyone else could, even if it was in my own way, I still could. I set goals, wrote them down, surrounded myself with all positive things, people, and atmosphere I could. I was bound and determined to not let anything control me but me control as much as my life and myself as I could.
I just felt, for me, that it was what I wanted to do. We're all different. Things that matter to one won't matter to another.
I've achieved some pretty interesting goals and goals to be proud of but I'm not superwoman, just determined.
[QUOTE=sonya_h]
if i had no problem with self discipline, then i would not have a lot of the problems that i have today...
[/QUOTE]
That is at the very core of our problem though. There is no way around it. The meds do help a little, but we still have to make the effort. Pain is your friend. Accept pain into your life. You already know that all the pleasure in the world won't bring you happiness, so why should pain make you sad? It doesn't!
It takes practice though. When I was a kid, I was useless. My dad would stick a broom in my hand and tell me to sweep the driveway. A 10 minute job tops. I would stand in one place daydreaming and talking to myself for 3 hours before getting chewed out. It seemed an overwhelming task to me. I had already decided what I wanted to do that day, and the fastest way to do it was to do it in my head I guess. I couldn't break the 'lock'.
[QUOTE=sonya_h]do you have ad/hd?
[/QUOTE]
Yes, I was diagnosed less than 2 weeks ago.
[QUOTE=floofthegoof]I always say this about discipline:
I need 3 times the discipline as a normal person to function at the same level, but I can't get mad at myself if I can only manage 2 times.
[/QUOTE]I can totally relate to this in a huge way. I am mwith things that matter to me. our son has none. [QUOTE=illhtac] [QUOTE=eliza]
I used to get all excited about assignments at uni, and go and get 10 books from the library. Unfortunately it is a 12 story library at my uni, so by the time I had made the effort to look up books, go and find them all, borrow them, take them home I was over it, and then wouldn't get around to reading the books or doing the assignment.
I never took them back on time, it's very annoying to get a library fine for books you never even read!
[/QUOTE]
oh, my gosh, that's me! I get all excited about a paper and get tons of books and then they just sit on my desk until I haul them all back unread and a week late. How did you overcome this?
[/QUOTE]Holy Cow, man, oh, man is this something I can completely relate to as well!! I never even thought about it until I read it but absolutely! (It makes me laugh thinking about it. No wonder people think we're weird or somthin' Well, at least the heart was willing.
Try having to compete in track in sprinting or relays, having the coach know you're fast, him getting excited that we probably could win the event, then finding out how I have no serious competitive edge (But I was really good natured about it and sweet). I couldn't keep that drive in me for the duration of the race, and it was sprinting!--a matter of seconds in some cases! He tried lecturing me a few times about "keep your eye on the finish line". I'm sure it frustrated him, but I had a good time with it and with the extra socializing with people and meeting those from other schools, making new friends. I think that's what appealed to me. How could I want to beat my new friend? "....oh, sure, you can win, you seem nice..."
I just forgot what the topic of this particular thread was about...oh my gosh, what am I going to do with myself?
goldenmoment38461.3974074074[QUOTE=Mark Goode]
Self discipline is all very well in theory, but in practise it rarely works as a control for ADHD. For example, I may look at my front lawn and decide to cut it - but as soon as I look away from it all thoughts of the lawn have gone, and something else has taken its place. Memory and attention are not under our conscious control, no matter how much we might kid ourselves otherwise. How would self-discipline help here?
Mark -
[/QUOTE]
my point exactly.
especially also with impulse control...
when you do something on impulse, you do it without thinking. that's the whole problem...if you could actually force yourself to stop and think, then it you would not be acting on impulse, and you would not have a problem, you know?
(it's kind of hard for me to explain what i'm trying to say...my parents and i used to have this debate all the time...) if i could force myself to control myself, then i would not have ad/hd, and there would be no problem...
but that's just me.....
[QUOTE=eliza]I used to get all excited about assignments at uni, and go and get 10 books from the library. Unfortunately it is a 12 story library at my uni, so by the time I had made the effort to look up books, go and find them all, borrow them, take them home I was over it, and then wouldn't get around to reading the books or doing the assignment.
I never took them back on time, it's very annoying to get a library fine for books you never even read!
[/QUOTE]
oh, my gosh, that's me! I get all excited about a paper and get tons of books and then they just sit on my desk until I haul them all back unread and a week late. How did you overcome this?
My problem is I have good intentions. Hubby will ask me what is on my agenda for the day. Well, I want to do some spring cleaning outside and if I have time, get in the garage to straighten. When he gets home he asks, Did you get to the things you wanted to do? Huh!! No, because I battled with a bee in the house for an 1 1/2 hours so it wouldn't sting the dog. And then I lost interest. Little things like that distract me. I just hope no one was looking in my window on that day!!!!
Self discipline is all very well in theory, but in practise it rarely works as a control for ADHD. For example, I may look at my front lawn and decide to cut it - but as soon as I look away from it all thoughts of the lawn have gone, and something else has taken its place. Memory and attention are not under our conscious control, no matter how much we might kid ourselves otherwise. How would self-discipline help here?
Mark -
Mark Goode38461.3500578704i notice a difference of opinions on the big "self discipline" issue...
care to discuss them?
some of you like to have your hard self discipline..
me personally, if i had good self discipline, i would not even be here in this group!
I hate when people tell me that, "sonya, you need to excersice more self control", or, "you need to have more self discipline"...
I CAN'T! I HAVE AD/HD! THAT MY WHOLE PROBLEM! (hellloooo, thats what the "impulsivity" is, a lack of mental self control to a certain extent...)
to me, that's like telling some one who needs glasses..."you need to just see better".....or some one with tourettes, "you should simply stop your ticcing..."..
if it was just THAT EASY, then this would not be an issue...
that's just my little 2 cents...any one care to join in on this discussion?
This is critical. Not even the miracle meds can help you without iron discipline. ADDr's appear to be undisciplined, but that's not true. If they show up for work, it's because they fought themselves and won. That's discipline!
I always say this about discipline:
I need 3 times the discipline as a normal person to function at the same level, but I can't get mad at myself if I can only manage 2 times.
floofthegoof38460.7308912037I have good discipline (I think). I make tons of lists and follow through. I don't allow myself to have fun (tv, magazine, etc) until I get my lists/chores done. I don't procrastinate at all. I can then relax knowing the hard stuff is done. But that is just day to day stuff. I don't have much discipline with long term goals, organizing, etc.[QUOTE=addbec]I have good discipline (I think). I make tons of lists and follow through. I don't allow myself to have fun (tv, magazine, etc) until I get my lists/chores done. I don't procrastinate at all. I can then relax knowing the hard stuff is done. But that is just day to day stuff. I don't have much discipline with long term goals, organizing, etc.[/QUOTE]
do you have ad/hd?
Self discipline is not something you either have or don't have. It's a question of how much. Any amount you can muster is beneficial to you. So the question shouldn't be 'how do I get that?', but 'how can I get more?'.It's like that Harrison Ford quote from TV. "The force is with you. Force yourself."
You have to be willing to subject yourself to pain, until you can develop a certain tolerance to it. It is a skill that requires training, and like many things it comes easier to some people than others. ADDer's feel the pain more intensely when they must deny themselves pleasure. Nontheless, anyone can increase their level of self discipline from it's current level.
Pain is your liberator. Pleasure is a tyrant. The more pleasure, of any kind, that a person allows themself to become accustomed to, the weaker and less in control of their lives they will become. Micheal Jackson is probably the best example of someone who has never said 'No' to himself. It is his indulgences, not his nature, that have turned him into a helpless kitten who must be carried into the courtroom in his PJ's, weeping like a toddler.
You find this principle alot in ancient Roman/Greek writings, and it's as true today as it was then. An Athenian once remarked, after eating a Spartan meal and finding it completely devoid of taste, "Now I know why the Spartans are so eager to die in battle!" the Spartans replied, "We find that the very best spices to use in our food are hunger, thirst and exhaustion." The Spartans were always noted in Greek and Roman writings as an extreme example of how self denial can create exceptional endurance and strength both physical and mental.
You may ask yourself, "what good is a life without pleasure?" However, such a scenario would require infinite self-disclipine, as is not attainable. Pleasure will take care of itself any time you let your guard down, and you can safely ignore any considerations regarding it. Pain is the thing that requires deliberate action on your part. The more pain you can inflict on yourself, the less you will notice from external sources. If you pay the rent, you inflict pain on yourself. If you don't, the landlord will inflict pain on you.
It's much easier said than done. Look at me goofing around on the internet instead of working! However, I can say that everything good that's ever happened to me was because I somehow was able to go from zero discipline, to having 'a little' discipline. I slowly build up more and more, with occasional relapses into hedonistic self pity, but I recover and keep going. It's tough, but always worth doing.