marbles

shadawbi:  Great!!  let me know how it works.  I'm thinking about writing a short book on disciplining ADHD children.  I have adhd and know what worked for me.  It does make it easer.  I am actually using flat glass marbles that are used for pot plants and vases.  I got clear plastic canisters so when he drops them they will not brake.  He has dropped them several times now.  Thank God for plastic!!

If it works with you, maybe a few of us can gather the data and do it together.

ogram:

We use the exact same things. I started the "marble" system, but only had these laying around. They work great AND match our decor. It can't be beat!

lmao  stopmom2maddy:

I have clear and maroon.  they match my living room perfectly!  Everyone thinks they are just SO beautiful sitting in the middle of the coffee table.

My daughter's 1st grade class uses the marble system, and it drives me crazy.  The kids behave because they want to earn marbles (and a prize for 100 marbles), not because they have internalized that this is the right thing to do.  They will only learn the right way to behave when they experience the consequences of their poor behavior. 

If we used a marble system to motivate my 12-year-old ADHD son to do his homework, it would not work.  He doesn't want marbles and a prize, he wants not to do his homework.  No amount of bribing will get him to do his homework.  However, if he experiences the consequences of not studying -- bad grades -- he may learn over time that he needs to do his homework.  Experience, not rewards, is the best teacher.  Let's face it -- when my son is an adult, his boss is not going to give him marbles when he does a good job at work.

Just my two cents.

SmallMom:

I do agree that this is not a system for teenagers. I think everyone would get laughed out of their home if they tried it with them. They are also old enough to understand direct correlations between action/consequence.

As for internalizing, I think that is exactly what this is doing. Yes, they are working toward earning something, but the process is what it teaches. Personally, I will update the earning chart. The things I take off are now expected behavior because she has learned it. My SD will have a priveledge taken away if she does not do it. This has worked very well for us.

Stepmom and Ogram --

Thanks for asking about consequences.  I'm sorry I didn't respond last evening -- it got late on the East Coast (where I live) and I got tired (don't we all?).

A natural consequence is anything that happens naturally with no adult interference.  When a child doesn't want to wear a coat, he gets cold.  When he doesn't want to eat what's put in front of him, he goes hungry.  In time (and it doesn't take that long), he learns to wear the coat so he won't be cold, and he eats his meal so he doesn't get hungry.

Clearly, natural consequences don't work in every situation.  You can't use natural consequences when a child is in danger; when natural consequences interfere with the rights of others; and when the results of the child's behavior do not seem like a problem to the child.  That's when we can turn to logical consequences, which require the intervention of an adult and must follow the three Rs -- Related, Respectful and Reasonable.  When a child spills milk, for example, the related consequence is to have him clean up the spill.  The adult must say in a respectful way, "Whoops.  What do you need to do?"  And it must be reasonable in that the child cleans up that spill and not the entire kitchen (unless, of course, that is the child's chore).   

Stepmom, you asked about making a bed.  Yes, the natural consequence is that your SD doesn't have a freshly made bed to sleep in at night.  Maybe she doesn't seem to mind a messy bed, but you want her room tidy.  In this instance, you would need to find a logical consequence.  You can say to her, "As soon as your bed is made, we'll have breakfast" or "As soon as your bed is made, we'll go to the park" (you need to set it up in a way that works in your household).  And then you wait (have a good magazine ready or play with your toddler).  It is related (in our family we clean up before we eat or play), it is respectful (you allow her to experience the consequences of her actions without punishing her or giving her a timeout) and it is reasonable (you are asking her to complete an age-appropriate chore before eating or having fun).  Again, it may take a few times of doing this, but your SD will soon learn what is expected of her without the use of rewards.  And she will internalize the good behavior (we work and then we play).

I hope that helps clarify my position.  I'm glad we're able to have this discussion.  Please post again if you have further questions. 

Ogram:

I hope I didn't mislead you.  We didn't try the marble system at my house because I don't believe rewards (or bribes) should teach children good behavior.  I believe kids should learn by experiencing the natural and logical consequences of their behavior.  As I said above, experience in my view is the best teacher.   

Every child and every family is different.  What works for your family may not work for ours.  I'm glad you found something that works for you.

SmallMom:

I believe in natural consequences, as well. However, I don't think it works for every situation. For instance, bed-making. The natural consequence would be that she would not have a nice, neat bed to get into at night or a clean room. I think my SD would be just fine with that. The system works for motivation, and I do not bribe her. This is how she earns priveledges in our home.

I am curious how exactly you use natural consequences.

Sheri

I'm gonna try the  marble system with the boys..maybe i can get  my 12 yr old  to clean his  room..  like i said  maybe....ty for  the  isea  my friend.

Stepmom2Maddy and SmallMom,

I think this debate is interesting because I am between the two of you.  Maybe, it's because I have worked with children who have very inappropriate behavior, but I think a rewards/consequences behavior modification system, like the marble system, has to be done with children who cannot internalize and need immediate help with their behavior.  I try to work towards internalizing because I think this is what is essential to long-term behavior adjustments, but it often very difficult for children who do not have any concept of proper behavior to internalize.  I read "Parenting with Love and Logic," which supports the internalization viewpoint, and I just laughed, thinking of applying it to some of the children I was working with.  So, I am split between the two arguments. 

I think this system does create internalization. There are many behaviors my SD learned from this system that are not on the chart now. The chart is constantly evolving to fit what she needs to learn.

Also, I do use natural consequences everyday. However, I just do not find them practical for my only way to discipline. I think a good combo is working much better for us.

Yes, StepMom2Maddy, that's what I think.  Your system leads toward internalization.  And some children MUST have a system of rewards/consequences to get there. 

Internalization...I'll give an example.  The "Love and Logic" people think that children should learn consequences to their actions.  A classic scenario of theirs--a child who does not get ready for school on time is taken to school in his/her pajamas with school clothes in a paper bag, and, therefore, learns that s/he should get ready for school on time.  The next time, the child will get ready in time, instead of having to dress at school.  The child has "internalized" the importance of being ready on time.  Well, I have had to stop two foster children of mine from going to school in their pajamas.  I ran down the driveway after one one them!!!  Trust me, this internalizing exercise would not work!!!

That is a crack up! I think my SD would love to show off her Barbie jammies to everyone. It has a sheer robe and everything.

But you are right. Children must have a strong concept of this. The marbles are a tangible relation to this. It isn't so abstract. As she gets older, it will be easier to transition.

Ogram --

I did not answer your question until now because my three children got home at 3 pm from school and then my daughter had a school concert this evening.  We just got home from the concert, and now the kids are in bed.

I am not angry about your comments, and I am not trying to be rude or judgmental.  You asked how I use natural consequences, and I answered in a straight-forward way about how natural and logical consequences are used in various situations.  I am just trying to add another point of view for others to think about because it seems that the message board is full of people who support rewards.  I'm advocating another point of view to educate others, not to be judgmental.  As I told you in a previous post, I never said rewards didn't work for my children; we have not tried a reward system.  I said they wouldn't work for my 12-year-old ADHD son mostly because I know what makes him tick, and it's not rewards.  I have not tried rewards for my son or my 10-year-old and 7-year-old daughters because I believe children learn best from experience.  Natural and logical consequences give them those experiences from which to learn.

In terms of allowance, yes, I give my children an allowance.  It is not tied to chores (although they do all have household chores).  In our house, allowance is not used for punishment or reward; it is given so that the children can learn life skills, namely money management.  It is also used so that when we are out shopping and they ask whether they can have something, we can say, "That's something you'll need to buy with your own money.  Do you have enough saved now or do you want to add it to your wish list?"

Again, I hope that clarifies my position.  I am happy to continue discussing this issue in a positive and constructive way.       

well that's exactly what i thought.

I think that both systems are fine, I guess i prefer a middle of the road approach.

Basically it comes down to choosing whatever system works for you and your family.

My son responds strongly to positive reinforcement. Not neccesarily rewards all the time, I find a well placed compliment or a tight hug after he does something without being asked works as well as tangible rewards.

Whats really important is that the child is learning how to do what they're supposed to do.

A friend of mine told me this once, and I thought it was great, even though I could care less whether or not my son makes his bed.  She said that she deducts making the bed and cleaning the child's room from her child's allowance.  She tells her child that when he grows up, he's going to have to pay a maid, so if she is going to be treated like a maid, then he is going to have to pay her.  Seems logical to me.

SmallMom:

I understand what natural consequences are, and we use them in many ways. Like if the clothes are not in the hamper, they don't get washed, and no clean clothes to wear. Also, with food. She will go hungry until the next time we eat.

However, I really do not have the patience to implement it in every situation. Some things have to be done. Personal hygeine for example. I will not let her go without brushing her teeth because she can not afford cavities. This is where the marble system works well. She does internalize it very well with this. Personally, I just do not see the problem with rewarding a child for a job well done. Again, rewards in our home are priveledges. In what way is this not positive discipline?

She is learning action/consequence, and not being put into time-out. A marble is simply taken out of the earned side. The only things she gets a time-out for are expected behavior and disrespect. Most days she only gets about ten min. in it. Alot of days none. I would appreciate it if you did not critisize me any further for putting her in time-out. Especially, when you do not know how we operate. Thank you very much.

I think that I am also a middle of the road parent....  Not that much works right now since we have no consistency (not my fault).  I plan to impement parts of 1-2-3 Magic and use the marbles.  I am thinking more of privileges rather than a tangible thing.  My son does not value his toy so I think that if there is something that he decides he really really wants then we will give that a point value and if he saves enough he can attain it.  I agree that the chart has to evolve with the child.  There is no way that it could stand still.  Hopefuly some of the behaviors and actions will become automatic and they can move off the chart and continue. 

Stpmom2maddy:  I also use timeouts.  There are times that we have to.  As a parent I do have to actually discipline my children sometimes.

I went to the local craft store (AC Moore) last night and got "mason jelly jars" and some colored stones/marbles (they are kind of small)- each kid got 50 to start - barely covered the bottom 1 of the jar.  Then gave the kids a list of chores where they get rewarded for doing them like unloading dishwasher, making bed, being polite, etc.  It also has what they will be deducted for like stealing, lying, being mean to each other, taking each other's marbles (10 marble deduction) having to be reminded about chores.  I made a chart that has the "point system" it also has a chart to keep track of how many marbles they SHOULD have - so they know that they cannot take any marbles from my stash - because if they have more than I have logged on the chart, there's a deduction.  I heard them counting their marbles last night - they seem very excited and they told me what they were going to to today since they are done school.  So we'll see how it goes.   I just have to figure out what the "reward" will be once the jar is full and how much it's worth?  I guess it depends on how long it takes to fill up.

Good luck!

I started this and it is a hands on discipline program that most ADHD kids will respond to.  ADHD kids need to participate in their discipline.  They do well if they are able to have a hands on.  If they can see it, they will respond to it.  This is what I do.  I keep a log, but he is the one to add marbles and take them away.

Marble System:

I have two "PLASTIC" containers.  I have "in" on one and "out" on the other.  I have a List of all the good things that he is supposed to to, like chores and reading books and working on left over worksheets his teacher gave us, and I add to it when I think about it.  Each one has a value.  The most value is 10 marbles for reading a book.  Cleaning his room is 3 marbles and keeping it clean is 5.  I have every thing from brushing his teeth, to picking up any trash that might be in the yard, to picking up sticks, to helping me pull weeds.  After he gets 100 marbles he gets $30.00 and he has to put $10 of it in his savings.  Now, if he does something wrong he has to take out marbles.  If he gets sassy or talks back, he takes out 3.  If he argues he takes out 5.  To keep track of what goes in and out, he has to write it on the paper.  That way he cannot put more marbles in there than he should.  I have not had to argue, raise my voice, spank, or even tell him more than 2 times to do something.  I will remind him ONE time for a warning and then he has to take marbles out.  We are doing this instead of an allowance.  If her reads 10 books in a row he will get his money and we start all over.  But, I don't think he has figured that out yet.  lol  At the end of each day, if he doesn't have to take any out all day, I let him put 3 in to reward him for good behavior.  This has been the best system yet.  I don't have to raise my voice and It's much easer to keep consistency when I don't have to raise my voice or put him in time out all the time.  This way he can see his progress, and he takes great pride in counting all the marbles he collects. 

maybe i should patten it.  lol

we tried the marbles and it is working GREAT!!! The kids immediately changed behavior and are cleaning their rooms - it changed them 100% - I would highly suggest it for those of you at your wits end.  It's something that they can see and something that they can look forward by seeing the jar fill and it corrects their behavior because they don't want to lose any marbles.

Total cost for the jars and marbles was about $10 -

we tried the marbles and it is working GREAT!!! The kids immediately changed behavior and are cleaning their rooms - it changed them 100% - I would highly suggest it for those of you at your wits end.  It's something that they can see and something that they can look forward by seeing the jar fill and it corrects their behavior because they don't want to lose any marbles.

Total cost for the jars and marbles was about $10 -

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Good for you!!!!  I am glad that you are using it and it is working.  My son still takes great pride in counting how many he has at the end of the day.