gifted kids . . . or other disorders? | ADHD Information
Hi there-
I've been out of town for a while, but actually read the NYT article while on vacation. I live in AZ and spoke with Jim Webb (one of the main authors of the book). I now have an appointment to have our 5 1/2 year old evaluated by one of his co-authors.
In the meantime, I have read their book cover to cover. It is VERY insightful. I was diagnosed as being "gifted" in the third grade. It never came into consideration when we were having our dd evaluated for ADHD, although EVERY person who evaluated her noted that she was EXTREMELY BRIGHT.
I cannot wait to get the results from her evaluation from this neuropsych who specializes in kids who are gifted (and also many other disorders - ADHD, ODD, Aspbergers. etc)
In my heart, I know she is incredibly gifted (maybe not profoundly, but most likely highly) and I just feel really guilty about nmedicating her for the past four months if it turns out to be done unnecessarily so. I know that you can be gifted and have ADHD, but the likelihood is very small. Although, DH is ADHD so maybe she got the best of both worlds...LOL!
BTW, some incredible websites are as follows:
They both have a wealth of info. Good luck to all of you.
Suzi
I have two gifted kids, my son who has a disorder with ADD, a high IQ also, and my daughter who does not have anything wrong with her except that she's a spoiled brat, but the girl has no common sense; book smart yes. She is bored in school and i can't wait till this year, i hope her teacher gives her extra work. Last year we had trouble with the teacher giving extra work, she got into trouble a lot; talking. My son is also bored with school since he learns a completely different way than the rest of the kids.....this year will be interesting... After my dd had her 1st dr.appt. about her behaviour, he wanted to many things ruled out, giftedness was one of them. My understanding, as a loose requirement of gifted, was that a child would get pushed ahead by 2 years in the schools. Mine only jumped one grade, and it was early K entrance, rather than later, which I believe was better than waiting. She identified them as her peer group from the beginning. Teachers are allowed to give one "Academic Excellence" award per class, it was her. I wish she had gotten a citizenship,but she is impulsive. This is why I call "not balanced" I'm very excited about her class this year, multi-age,(1st,2nd,3rd together) socially she fits in with the 1st, academically between 2nd and3rd. The teacher really didn't want her last year, no K kids to blend in with. We just have to wait for the neuro to rule out adhd, AS, or other things I guess, before we go the IQ test route. Anyone know the usual order of what gets ruled out? We may not have even ruled out the adhd,but she has slowed down in the past couple of months.
When my son had his neuropsych evaluation, IQ testing was part of it. The testing also included achievement testing (Woodcock-Johnson) to see how much he had learned versus his cognitive ability. My understanding is that "gifted" is generally a full scale IQ of 130 or above. However, kids with LDs or other disorders may have one partial scale IQ score of 130 or above that qualifies them. (The new WISC-IV IQ test has four subtests: Verbal, Perceptual Reasoning, Working Memory and Processing Speed.) And then again, a kid who plays the piano beautifully or has tremendous mechanical ability may be "gifted," too.
I have a couple of links about giftedness and young children I will post them later in case anyone is interested.
I feel like a lot of my ADHD/AS dd's difficult behaviors stem from her intellectual giftedness. That coupled with her semantic-pragmatic issues are exactly why I have told dh that I think above all else, she will end up falling into the classification of both learning disabled and gifted and talented.
Gifted children still need time to mature emotionally and socially. It is a challenge to nurture their exceptional acumen and maintian realistic expectations for their maturity, etc. at the same time.
*as an aside....I do not know to which age group the 130 IQ score was applied as being "gifted." or what test had been administered to assign the score. How scores are evaluated is different on different tests and when applied to different age groups. THe IQ test that EMma Jean recently took valued a score of 130 as "Gifted," and of 135 or higher as "Exceptionally Gifted." The test she took was designed for preschoolers.
shue38565.7609259259For those interested, here is a link that lists characteristics of gifted and talented and learning disabled children:
http://www.gtldnetwork.org/GTLDCharacteristics.html
Shue, my understanding is that the 130 and above IQ score is frequently cited as the benchmark for "giftedness" on the Wechsler IQ tests. Other tests may have different scores and different benchmarks. The WISC-IV is used to test children ages 6 and up. The WPPSI-III is used to test children through age 5. Scores are normed by age.
I agree wholeheartedly with your insight about gifted children needing time to mature socially and emotionally. I do think as they get older, it does perhaps get a bit easier. While our son's sense of humor is still quirky and sometimes annoying to certain kids, he is able to relate better and better to his peers. And as he nears adolescence, he has matured emotionally in so many ways. Our ongoing difficulty with our 12-year-old ADHD son has been finding the appropriate academic challenge without overwhelming him with too much work (particularly written). The right academic environment, for which we are still searching, is key.
SmallMom38565.7714351852
That was the test that was part and parcel with the other diagnostic testing she had while we were trying to get a better picture of what is going on with her.
Thanks for the link. That is not one I had come across. 
It has also been my experience that the gap that can create difficulties socially and emotionally for gifted kids narrows as time goes by. Especially if they have been encouraged to explore other aspects of their person than their intelligence alone. All giftedness really means in the general picture, after all is said and done, is that the gifted individual learns very easily. Perhaps in general and/or with a special area of interest that they excel within to an even greater extent. By all means as a parents, we (dh and I) feel it is our responsibility to nurture and tend whatever gifts our children possess, but not to the exception of other areas of development critical to a lifetime of success. I am only singling out what we think of as part of our parenting responsibilities because I didn't want to come across as officious or as if I have a handle on what all parents think. I hope my tone is not superior. I don't mean for it to be.
I have also heard somthing about "ceilings" on these (Wooodcock-Johnson amy be one) Does this sound right to anyone, and what do they do if a child reaches the "ceiling" in one area but not others? Does social skills get tested? How much different is gifted than AS?Yes, I am surprised that an IQ of 130 is considered gifted. It seems to me the definition is being watered down? This definition would mean I am gifted, and I can tell you that I definitely AM NOT. I wish we would call genius what it is and call the rest of the kids "really smart" or "academically inclined." I don't mean to offend anyone by saying that, but kids who have genius level IQ's (is it 140 or 145 and above?) are truly different kids. There's no doubt of who and what they are. Now, I cannot tell you how much I love Howard Gardner and his writings on multiple intelligences. And I believe, like he does, that way too much emphasis is put on IQ testing in schools, that children can show brilliance in a number of different areas that may or may not show up in school, and that schools emphasize certain intelligences over others. I love this theory because I think it applies to a good 99% of the population. However, I also think there are intellectual geniuses, and they are a different breed, though very, very rare.Not sure what you're asking . . .
What do you mean how is AS (Aspergers?) different from gifted? AS is a neurological disorder. Gifted refers to cognitive ability and is not in and of itself a disorder, but can sometimes be confused with a disorder, as the New York Times article points out.
Lillian,
As the article points out, IQ scores of 130 and above represent 3 percent of the population. That doesn't seem watered down to me. (BTW, the WISC-IV is harder and IQ scores are generally coming in lower than with the WISC-III.) Having said that, my son has an IQ in the highly gifted range, and I have to say you're right: He truly has a wonderful and exciting mind. I love talking to him (although it can be mind-numbing at times. LOL!).
SmallMom,
Yes, your son's "wonderful and exciting mind" is fascinating. It is an amazing thing to talk to these children and see the world through their minds.
As far as Asperger's and GT, my step-nephew has this combination. I find these kids to be a different type of GT, in the sense that they often focus on one subject and may have great difficulties in others, even if it is within the same academic field. For example, my step-nephew is a phenomenal speller, but he cannot write. Creative thinking is hell for him, but he can memorize anything.
Lillian - you seemed to read my mind on a question I couldn't figure out how to ask. Thank you.There are many areas of being gifted. My son is Aspergers and he has a high IQ in areas like technical, and others things, but when it comes to school and certain subjects he's average. When he goes to the Neuro Dr. he's going to retest his IQ. My son is the same he can remember things that happened 2 years ago, and his memorization is incrediable.Thought this article from the New York Times was interesting . . .
By ABIGAIL SULLIVAN MOORE Published: July 31, 2005DISCERNING gifted children, long an imperfect science, is even tougher in today's label-prone culture. James T. Webb, a clinical psychologist and author of "Misdiagnosis and Dual Diagnosis of Gifted Children and Adults," explains what can go wrong.
Q. Parents throw the word "gifted" around. What does it mean, really?A. Gifted comes in different forms and degrees. Gifted children excel in such areas as general intellectual ability, specific aptitudes like math, creative thinking, visual or performing arts. Most have I.Q. scores between 130 and 155. Above that range are the profoundly gifted - a tiny fraction of the group. Over all, the gifted represent about 3 percent of our population.
Q. Why would gifted children be tagged as having psychological disorders?
A. Behaviors of many gifted children can resemble those of, say, attention deficit/hyperactivity disorder. Most teachers, pediatricians and psychologists aren't trained to distinguish between the two. Most gifted kids are very intense, pursuing interests excessively. This often leads to power struggles, perfectionism, impatience, fierce emotions and trouble with peers. Many gifted kids have varied interests, skipping from one to the other - a trait often misinterpreted as A.D.H.D.
Q. You write that these misdiagnoses are common.
A. About a quarter of gifted children have their giftedness misinterpreted as a disorder and aren't recognized as gifted. Even when flagged as gifted, another 20 percent are misdiagnosed. Among children referred to me with a bipolar diagnosis, almost 100 percent have been misdiagnosed, as are 70 percent of those with obsessive-compulsive diagnoses and 55 percent of those with A.D.H.D.
Q. What's a parent to do?
A. Parents should educate themselves about the characteristics of gifted children: intense curiosity, unusually good memory, a remarkable sense of humor, exquisite sensitivity to others and extensive vocabularies. And identify them early. Children's attitudes toward learning get set before age 10. Preschool and the early grades generally turn off gifted kids: they are told to stop asking so many questions and wait their turn. They need an appropriate learning environment. If not, seeds for underachievement are sown.
Thanks Lillian for replying.
Was your son a late talker, but spoke in complete sentences when he began to speak?
No- he was an early talker (about 20 words at 12 months) His language progressed normally- one word, two words, short phrases, sentences) but he progressed rapidly. He started speaking real sentences around 15-16 mos. I am told the profoundly gifted general can speak in sentences by 1 year.
Did he talk about things that had happened before he could speak?
No
Other things that make me think he not profoundly gifted- he doesn't have that innate curiostity about how things work. Taking apart toys... to see the mechanics... He puts his lego sets and Bionicles together in an age appropriate way. (I think the recommended age for Bionicles is 7 and he had to work hard to put them together at age 6) He is not really "odd" compared to other kids. (Sorry if I am perpetuating stereotypes) He does well socially. This year he was in 2nd grade but in a 3rd grade cirriculum math class- he did well but he found certain parts of it challenging. I always think of the profoundly gifted as being several years ahead of their peers and he does not seem that way to me.
KidsInSpace38565.4793634259
Kidsinspace, I don't know if your son is profoundly gifted, but his IQ sounds very high to me, particularly in linguistic reasoning. Teaching himself to read and being able to do so fluently, completing chapter books, by 1st grade is a clue--my brother did the same. Was your son a late talker, but spoke in complete sentences when he began to speak? Did he talk about things that had happened before he could speak? These also are signs of a very high linguistic IQ. I will be interested to see what the doctors have to say about your son.
Hyperactivity and GT--my mom used to tell the story of walking into our neighbor's yard and hearing one of the kids say, "Quick! Hide your toys. Dickie's coming" because he was so hyper he broke all the kids' toys. She also told stories of his running so fast that she kept all the doors leading outside locked with locks out of his reach and never allowed him play in a yard that was not fenced. My brother was five years older than I, and I do not remember his being hyper, at all. Apparently, he outgrew it? I wonder, though, if it isn't part of being a really gifted kid. It makes sense to me.
lillian38565.4676157407I have one very gifted child, now 28. Nobody ever confused him with anything but gifted. His biggest problem, if you could call it one, was that a lot of the kids were not on his level intellectually so he gravitated towards the brighter kids and laughingly says he was "King of the Geeks" in high school, but, really, he always had lots of friends. He never exhibited behavior problems or ADHD behaviors. I think you can be gifted and have a disorder or just be gifted. My biological son had an IQ around 130, which is pretty good, and he had some anxiety issues unrelated to his intelligence. Interesting article.My husband and I share something very odd in common, and that is we both had profoundly gifted people in our immediate families--for me it was my oldest brother (he died in a car accident when he was twenty two, although he was very ill at the time of his death), and for my husband it was his father. My brother's IQ was so high that when he was tested at a school for gifted children that had a year waiting list, they forgot about the waiting list and took my brother the day after his IQ was tested. It was 160 something. My husband's father went to Duke at the age of 16, became an MD at the age of 22, and earned two additional PhD's by the time he was 30. I'm not sure what his actual IQ was.
And my husband and I are in total agreement--being profoundly gifted is one of the toughest disorders to live with that anyone could possibly have. To call it "gifted," as if it is a gift, is absurd. This "gift" can lead to all types of problems, like depression, anxiety, and addiction (my husband's father drank himself to death). If you are a parent of one of these children, my advice is to keep a very close eye on them, watching for the INTENSE depression that often, if not always, comes with this "gift." In fact, I think it so commonly comes with it that it would be a good idea to teach your child how to deal with depression, even if your child is not showing any signs of it.
Just my thoughts.
My son is gifted and hyperactive (diagnosed adhd but he is just plain hyper) Our public school pinpointed him as gifted in kindergarten and removed him from his kindergarten class three days a week for an hour at a time to work with the reading specialist instead of having him work on kindergarten level phonics. (I don't know what grade level he was on but he had finished the 2nd Harry Potter book the summer before K started.) It did wonders for his behavior in class. There were other times when he would finish tasks very quickly so his kindergarten teacher allowed him to either read a book he broght along or he could work out of a math workbook that the school supplied for him.
Although I know my child is gifted I don't think people are "confused" when they think he is ADHD. Whether or not his behavior is linked to his intelligence or whether it is just a coincidence that he is both hyper and smart remains untold. But as I see it, what is the difference. He needs treatment for his hyperactivity and he needs enrichment at school because he is gifted. He is getting both.
As I side note- I do not beleive my son is profoundly gifted as Lillian described. I call him gifted and so does the school but this is just based on observation. he hasn't had an iq test... We feel he is gifted because of his academic abilities- he taught himself to read before he was 3.5. Could read very well by 4th birthday. Could multiply in his head at age 4, doing division before his 5th bday... (Once, when he was 5, he saw a 6 pack of cupcakes at the store and said "Can we get these. They are only , that is less than 35 cents each."- I knew I was in trouble then) We will find out much more about my son very soon as he will be participating in a study of gifted children at johns Hopkins UH this coming year.
KidsInSpace38565.3504861111Thank you for posting this article as it has helped me tremendously and has openned my eyes. I can also see how things can be misunderstood as ADHD or other disorders.My brother did not start talking until he was well over two, and he spoke in complete sentences. My mother used to describe my brother's language acquisition as "frightening." For some reason, he particularly liked to talk about cars when he began talking. By the age of three, he knew every make and model of car on the road and would point at them at tell my dad what they were. Granted, this was fifty years ago, so there were a lot fewer cars 
. Interestingly, people talk about gifted kids being gifted in one field, but my brother was gifted in many. His genius was in history and language--reading, writing and spelling. He literally was a walking dictionary, could spell or define any word. He was watching Jeopardy and answering all the questions by the time he was in junior high. He was writing for the city newspaper at the age of 16 and winning national writing awards by the time he graduated from high school. However, he also excelled in math and art. The only subject I do not remember his having any interest in was science. We shared that!!!
Oh, well. A bit of trivia about my family. I haven't thought about this for a long time. BTW, he was a very, very cool guy, as well.
i work in a school - a social adjustment unit - filled with kids with iqs over 130 but have severe behavioural problems.. very few of these kids will complete high school and even fewer of these kids will end up in the permanent workforce..these kids have all been expelled from their respective schools and sent to where i work.. some are adhd, some have bipolar but they all share the same common denominator.. many will end up in some form of remand centre..
if only the world thought like bugzappers does, it would truly be a better place for all..
[QUOTE=Brookelea]i work in a school - a social adjustment unit - filled with kids with iqs over 130 but have severe behavioural problems.. very few of these kids will complete high school and even fewer of these kids will end up in the permanent workforce..
these kids have all been expelled from their respective schools and sent to where i work.. some are adhd, some have bipolar but they all share the same common denominator.. many will end up in some form of remand centre..
if only the world thought like bugzappers does, it would truly be a better place for all..
[/QUOTE]
Do you teach these kids?
yes i do lillian.. aren't i lucky
seriously sometimes i think that i am insane and other times i feel
blessed.. right now i'm just thinking that i have to be awake in 6
hours to get ready to go to work and face the boys - lucky me i have
the boys only group 
..i'm going to bed.. the strange canadian movie has finished and i'm going to have nightmares about it..
[QUOTE=Brookelea]yes i do lillian.. aren't i lucky seriously sometimes i think that i am insane and other times i feel blessed.. right now i'm just thinking that i have to be awake in 6 hours to get ready to go to work and face the boys - lucky me i have the boys only group ..
i'm going to bed.. the strange canadian movie has finished and i'm going to have nightmares about it..
[/QUOTE]
Good for you and teaching these kids!!! Tough job, but some of the best teachers I have ever met are the ones who do your job.
Nighty, night.
Mattie- I so agree with your post. And Lillian also brought up that being profoundly gifted can be a detriment. I do so agree- and this is my own weird little theory:
I would be willing to bet that a person with an IQ over 145 has a very different neurological activity map just like those with ADHD/Autism... and so are probably likely for comorbidity. I am just making this up- but I really think that the most intelligent people I know have "quirks". I always think of this when I hear about cases like the gifted homeless man, or the artist who was a prodigy who commits suicide at 30, or the genius who drinks himself to death. We all hear these stories and it seems so tragic to waste a life that was so full of promise.
One seems OCD, another (my brother-in-law) is unbeleivably smart, has an extreme preoccupation with one subject and knows everything about it (seems a little bit AS) but is very deficient in social skills.
I beleive my son has gifts and luckily he seems very internally motivated to develop these gifts- I see my job is to help him hone other skills so he will be well-rounded.
KidsInSpace38571.2623611111There are gifted and non-gifted people with dirorders and quirks. Many gifted in my own family, as I posted above. You can be gifted and have a disorder at the same time, which may account for the oddness (Aspergers people often have very high IQs but can't function in real life). A study in Newsweek a while back stirred up a lot of controversey when it stated that your IQ usually is consistent with how far you will go in life. Most high IQ people are very successful with normal lives. Giftedness is not a disorder, but an IQ level. 120 and up is superior, 130 very superior, 140 near genuis/genius and 150 genuis (unless it has changed since I last saw it). Creatively gifted people have a high correlation with bipolar and other mood problems. 1 in 100 people will have bipolar disorder. 8 out of 10 creatively gifted people will have mood disorders, usually bipolar, and they also have a high suicide rate. There is a good book about this called "Moodswing." I wish I could remember the author, but, if you see the title, read it. It's fascinating. There are less bipolar athletes than bipolar writers, some doctors believing that the creativity is part of the cycling. Van Gough is a good example--he cut off his ear and sent it to his girlfriend. There are many sites about this. Here is one:
http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro03/web2/nmegatuls ki.html
psm090438571.3009953704I wonder how many "gifted" people and kids suffer in silence. Makes me sad. If you know someone who is gifted, reach out to them and take them someplace out of the ordinary and get them to enjoy life and themselves for a few minutes, you could change the life they lead.
Shue,
First, I didn't get a "superior" tone from your post.
And I agree with you wholeheartedly.
"Giftedness" measured on any scale with a child means: "What?" by itself- a good thing no doubt, especially to parents and those who work with the one "gifted" in the area of the gift.
But what does it ultimately mean to the individual?
Many years ago I watched a news special about the homeless. One of the individuals in the homeless situation-- and seemingly wanting to remain there, was a man with an IQ that was well above 160.
No doubt there are those in the "gifted" category that excel in life. But "gifted" isn't a ticket for success by itself.
I know from my own experience that being labeled "gifted" as a child, is a label with a double-edged sword in relationships. On the one hand, the adults in my life were excited and enthusiastic toward me because of it; but my peers and siblings felt less-than or resentful because of it. I was lonely, confused-- and frightened to not live up to it, and yet frightened to succeed with it.
No longer a child (for many, many, many years), the "giftedness" I may have possessed as a child no longer matters. And it's a good thing. I live my life, and I do what I love to do-- and I do it very well. I give credit to my mother and father, who gave consent to have me tested and discovered I was "gifted" yet still raised me as one of their own. They acknowledged with praise my "giftedness", yet said "no" to advancing me a grade or two in school. They fully supported MY interests-- yet was no different with me than my siblings in that I was to be responsible for my actions and abide by their rules the same as everyone else.
I grew up labelled a "gifted" child-- yet my parents saw me as one of their many children, and treated me as such.
My point here: is there a separate culture for those defined as "gifted?" I think not-- we all go out there with just our own resources. And being "gifted" doesn't pave a path or guarantee any type of lifestyle. We do what we do in life-- and accomplish what we accomplish due to our chosen passion and ability to relate to others. Any other way is by luck or inheritance.
under the wisc iv iq test there are no scores above 160.. 130 is the benchmark for gifted and its the top 2%..i think most psychs these days are using the wisc iv anyhow..
question: doesn't one need to do an iq test and its equivalent, ie the wiat, as part of an adhd assessment??
I have a lot of respect for Ms. Gradin. I've read some of her books. She's right. Not everyone with a high IQ has Aspergers, bipolar, ADHD, social problems, homelessness, etc. Many people with gifted kids who have various disorders blame the giftedness on the disorders, and it takes a clever professional to sort it all out. She has a very good point.SmallMom,
Thanks for posting this list from Webb on distinguishing the difference
between ADHD and Giftendness.
The difference that jumped out at me immediately is that ADHD kids have
poorly sustained attention in almost all situations. While, gifted kids tend
to have poor attention, …in specific situations. This makes so much
more sense to me than the patent answer I am used to hearing. That
being that everyone has trouble focusing on things that do not interest
them. But those without ADHD are better able to control the tendency to
be distracted.
Webb:s explanation seems to explain why my son can focus for eight
hours straight reading the latest Harry Potter book, or spend an entire
day learning a new programming language, yet zone out the first five
minutes in his history class.
And do I ever know the issue of power struggles with authority, another
earmark of giftedness. He has tested the limits with several teachers.
And they are always the ones I would consider to be weak or
inexperienced. But give him a blooded veteran who sets boundaries and
motivates him and there are never any discipline issues.
Interestingly, my son is not dreading the start of school like I am. He is
anxious to resume his social life. Since he commutes to school outside
our neighborhood, he has not had contact with his school friends the
entire summer
another article concerning giftedness and misdiagnosis, but from a slightly different point of view:
"Genius May Be an Abnormality:
Educating Students with Asperger's Syndrome,
or High Functioning Autism
Temple Grandin, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523, USA
I am becoming increasingly concerned that intellectually gifted children are being denied opportunities because they are being labeled either Asperger's or high functioning autism. Within the last year I have talked to several parents, and I was disturbed by what they said. One mother called me and was very upset that her six-year-old son had Asperger's. She then went on to tell me that his IQ was 150. I replied that before people knew about Asperger's Syndrome, their child would have received a very positive label of intellectually gifted.
In another case the parents of an Asperger teenager called and told me that they were so concerned about their son's poor social skills that they would not allow him to take computer programming. I told her that depriving him of a challenging career in computers would make his life miserable. He will get social interaction by shared interests with other computer people. In a third case, a super smart child was not allowed in the talented and gifted program in his school because he had an autism label. Educators need to become aware that intellectually satisfying work makes life meaningful.
It is essential that talented children labeled either high functioning autism or Asperger's be trained in fields such as computer programming, where they can do intellectually satisfying work. Click here to read my paper entitled 'Choosing the Right Job for People with Autism or Asperger's Syndrome.' For many people with Asperger's, and for me, my life is my work. Life would not be worth living if I did not have intellectually satisfying work. I did not fully realize this until a flood destroyed our university library. I was attending the American Society of Animal Science meetings when the flood occurred. I first learned about it when I read about it on the front page of USA Today, a national newspaper. I grieved for the "dead" books, the same way most people grieve for a dead relative. The destruction of books upset me because "thoughts died." Even though most of the books are still in other libraries, there are many people at the university who will never read them. To me, Shakespeare lives if we keep performing his plays. He dies, when we stop performing them. I am my work. If the livestock industry continues to use equipment I have designed, then my "thoughts live" and my life has meaning. If my efforts to improve the treatment of cattle and pigs make real improvements in the world, then life is meaningful.
I have been reading, with great satisfaction, the many articles in magazines about Linux free software. People in the business world are not able to comprehend why the computer people give their work away. I am unable to think about this without becoming emotional. It is no mystery to me why they download their intellectual ideas into the vast, evolving and continually improving computer operating system. It is because their thoughts will live forever as part of the "genetic code" of the computer program. They are putting themselves into the program and their "intellectual DNA" will live forever in cyber-space. As the program evolves and changes, the code they wrote will probably remain hidden deep within it. It is almost like a living thing that is continually evolving and improving. For both me and for the programmers that contribute to Linux, we do it because it makes our lives more meaningful.
Continuum of Traits
There is a continuum of personality and intellectual traits from normal to abnormal. At what point does a brilliant computer programmer or engineer get labeled with Asperger's. There is no black and white dividing line. Simon Baron-Cohen, an autism researcher at the University of Cambridge, found that there were 2 ˝ times as many engineers in the family history of people with autism. I certainly fit this pattern. My grandfather was an engineer who was co-inventor of the automatic pilot for an airplane. I have second and third cousins who are engineers and mathematicians.
At a recent lecture, Dr. Baron-Cohen described three brilliant cases of Asperger's Syndrome. There was a brilliant physics student, a computer scientist, and a mathematics professor. It is also likely that Bill Gates has many Asperger's traits. An article in Time Magazine compared me to Mr. Gates. For example, we both rock. I have seen video tapes of Bill Gates rocking on television. Articles in business magazines describe his incredible memory as a young child.
There is evidence that high functioning autism and Asperger's Syndrome have a strong genetic basis. G. R. DeLong and J. T. Dyer found that two thirds of families with a high functioning autistic had either a first or second degree relative with Asperger's Syndrome. Sukhelev Naragan and his co-workers wrote, in the Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders, that educational achievement of the parents of an autistic child with good language skills were often greater than those of similar parents with normal children. Dr. Robert Plomin at Pennsylvania State University states that autism is highly heritable.
In my book, Thinking in Pictures, I devote an entire chapter to the link between intellectual giftedness and creativity to abnormality. Einstein himself had many autistic traits. He did not learn to speak until he was three, and he had a lack of concern about his appearance. His uncut hair did not match the men's hairstyles of his time.
Genius is an Abnormality?
It is likely that genius in any field is an abnormality. Children and adults who excel in one area, such as math, are often very poor in other areas. The abilities are very uneven. Einstein was a poor speller and did poorly in foreign language. The brilliant physicist, Richard Feynman, did poorly in some subjects.
A review of the literature indicates that being truly outstanding in any field may be associated with some type of abnormality. Kay Redfield Jamison, from Johns Hopkins School of Medicine, has reviewed many studies that show the link with manic depressive illness and creativity. N.C. Andreason at the University of Iowa found that 80 percent of creative writers had mood disorders sometime during their life. A study of mathematical giftedness, conducted at Iowa State University by Camilla Persson, found that mathematical giftedness was correlated with being near-sighted and having an increased incidence of allergies. I recently attended a lecture by Robert Fisher at Barrow Neurological Institute in Phoenix, Arizona. He stated that many great people had epilepsy, people such as Julius Ceasar, Napoleon, Socrates, Pythagoras, Handel, Tchaikovsky, and Alfred Nobel. An article in the December 2001 issue of Wired magazine discussed the link between autism and Asperger's, and engineer and computer programming. The incidence of autism and Asperger's has increased in the children of technology company employees. A little bit of autism genes may provide an intellectual advantage and too much of the genetic may cause a severe case of autism.
Types of Thinking
There appear to be two basic types of thinking in intellectually gifted people who have Asperger's or high functioning autism. The highly social, verbal thinkers who are in the educational system need to understand that their thought processes are different. The two types are totally visual thinkers like me; and the music, math and memory thinkers which are described in Thomas Sowell's book, Late Talking Children. I have interviewed several of these people, and their thoughts work in patterns in which there are no pictures. Sowell reports that in the family histories of late talking, music math and memory children, 74 percent of the families will have an engineer or a relative in a highly technical field such as physics, accounting, or mathematics. Most of these children also had a relative that played a musical instrument.
Every thought I have is represented by a picture. When I think about a dog, I see a series of pictures of specific dogs, such as my student's dog or the dog next door. There is no generalized verbal 'dog' concept in my mind. I form my dog concept by looking for common features that all dogs have, and no cats have. For example, all of the different breeds of dogs have the same kind of nose. My thought process goes from specific pictures to general concepts, where as most people think from general to specific. I have no vague, abstract, language-based concepts in my head, only specific pictures.
When I do design work, I can run three-dimensional, full motion "video" images of the cattle handling equipment in my head. I can "test run" the equipment on the "virtual reality" computer that is in my imagination. Visual thinkers who are expert computer programmers have told me that they can see the entire program "tree," and then they write the code on each branch.
It is almost as if I have two consciences. Pictures are my real thoughts, and language acts as a narrator. I narrate from the "videos" and "slides" I see in my imagination. For example, my language narrator might say, "I can design that." I then see a video of the equipment I am designing in my imagination. When the correct answer pops into my head, it is a video of the successful piece of equipment working. At this point, my language narrator says, "I figured out how to do it." In my mind there is no subconscious. Images are constantly passing through the computer screen of my imagination. I can see thought processes that others have covered up with language. I do not require language for either consciousness or for thinking.
When I learned drafting for doing my design work, it took time to train my visual mind to make the connection between the symbolic lines on a layout drawing and an actual building. To learn this I had to take the set of blueprints and walk around in the building, looking at the square concrete support columns, seeing how the little squares on the drawing related to the actual columns. After I had "programmed" my brain to read drawings, the ability to draw blueprints appeared almost by magic. It took time to get information in, but after I was "programmed," the skill appeared rather suddenly. Researchers who have studied chess players state that the really good chess players have to spend time inputting chess patterns into their brains. I can really relate to this. When I design equipment I take bits of pictures and pieces of equipment I have seen in the past and re-assemble them into new designs. It is like taking things out of the memory of a CAD computer drafting system, except I can re-assemble the pieces into three-dimensional, moving videos. Constance Mibrath and Bryan Siegal at the University of California found that talented, autistic artists assemble the whole from the parts. It is "bottom up thinking," instead of "top down thinking."
Teachers and Mentors
Children and teenagers with autism or Asperger's need teachers who can help them develop their talents. I cannot emphasize enough the importance of developing a talent into an employable skill. The visual thinkers like me can become experts in fields such as computer graphics, drafting, computer programming, automotive repair, commercial art, industrial equipment design, or working with animals. The music, math, and memory type children can excel in mathematics, accounting, engineering, physics, music, translating engineering and legal documents, and other technical skills. Unless the student's mathematical skills are truly brilliant, I would recommend taking courses in library science, accounting, engineering, or computers. Learning a technical skill will make the person highly employable. There are few jobs for mediocre mathematicians or physicists.
Since social skills are weak, the person can make up for them by making themselves so good at something that people will hire them. Teachers need to council individuals to go into fields where they can easily gain employment.
Majoring in history is not a good choice because obtaining a job will be difficult. History could be the person's hobby instead of the main area of study in school.
Many high functioning autistic and Asperger teenagers get bored with school and misbehave. They need mentors who can teach them a field that will be beneficial to their future. I had a wonderful high school science teacher who taught me to use the scientific research library. Computers are a great field because being weird or a "computer geek" is okay. A good programmer is recognized for his/her skills. I know several very successful autistic computer programmers. A bored high school student could enroll in programming or computer-aided drafting courses in a local community college.
To make up for social deficits, autistic individuals need to make themselves so good that they are recognized for brilliant work. People respect talent. They need mentors who are computer programmers, artists, draftsmen, etc., to teach them career skills. I often get asked, "How does one find mentors?" You never know where a mentor teacher may be found. He may be standing in the checkout line in a supermarket. I found one of my first meat industry mentors when I met the wife of his insurance agent at a party. She struck up a conversation with me because she saw my hand embroidered western shirt. I had spent hours embroidering a steer head on the shirt. Post a notice on the bulletin board at the local college in the computer science department. If you see a person with a computer company name badge, approach him and show him work that the person with autism has done."
http://www.autismtoday.com/articles/Genius_May_Be_Abnormalit y.asp?name=Dr.%20Temple%20Grandin
participating in a study of gifted children at johns Hopkins UH this coming
year.[/QUOTE]
Our son has gone to the Johns Hopkins Center for Talent Youth Summer
Camp (commonly referred to as Nerd Camp) the past three years. You might
consider it for your son. This year it was a three-week class in forensics.
They learned about DNA, fingerprint, hair analysis, shoe prints, etc. It
wasn't just science though. At the end all the kids wrote their own crime
stories using forensic clues based on what they had learned. Last year he
took robotics. He build a robot and programed it to do many things. It's a
great program. Check it out.Thanks for this article, SmallMom. It really speaks to me and our son's
experiences.
My 12 YO son, too, has been identified as gifted. And I'm never quite
sure if ADHD is the real or only diagnosis.
He was reading at third grade level when he entered kindgergarten and
when tested in spelling and grammar by a private school we were
considering, he tested at second year college at age 10. He has
consistently scored in the 99th precentile in math on his standardized
test. This summer he picked up some programming books at a garage
sale and taught himself C++ and Visual Basic.
Yet school is a nightmare. Getting him to complete a page of homework
can try the patience of Job. He spends more time in the office than in
class.
I'm never quite sure if he suffers from ADHD or boredom. I am so
dreading the start of school. keelime38571.8479166667All in all, gifted kids (or kids with high IQs) do a lot better than those with low IQs. Anyone with an IQ of 130 who is homeless has other problems too. Somebody that bright should be able to easily hold a good job, even if he didn't go to college. Again, lots of "giftedness" in my family and nobody homeless---the gifted ones have the most success in the business world and are doing well. Thos with high IQ's doing poorly in life are usually mentally or neurologically challenged. My son, the one with the very high IQ, was bored in school, but is very successful in life and has lots of friends. Since he is 28, that is unlikely to change. Yet my friend has a 28 year old son with an IQ of 160 who can't hold a job and is pretty "life" helpless. Why? He has Aspergers Syndrome and spent his life misdiagnosed with ADHD. He finally got a total evaluation at 25, but what can be done now? He is not cooperative at his age and has yet to keep a job, even a simple one. He is a very angry young adult who is very misunderstood. I don't like using giftedness alone as an excuse for poor behavior. Of course, it's just my own experience and opinion. I think it can often be a reason why parents don't pursue why their high IQ kids aren't able to perform socially or academically and chalk it off to "well, it's hard for gifted kids." It's an advantage to have a high IQ unless you also have more going on. Again JMHO and observation. The only person in my family who will need assisted living is my PDD-NOS son with an average IQ of 107, and this is due to his autism. If he didn't have it, he'd be fine as far as schoolwork and holding a job. Because we got screwed around so badly, I like to remind parents not to leave any stone unturned---check everything out if your child is struggling. They are at our mercy. No, I'm not saying I'm better than anyone here. I'm saying I screwd up by not pursuing things fast enough or early enough, and I wish I had, and I hope you all do. psm090438571.6706712963
smallmom-
The book did say that the liklihood of being ADHD and gifted was there, but VERY small. They did not site any statistics regarding that.
My gut, regarding my dd, is that she is gifted, I'd guess maybe 145 IQ, but does she have ADHD? From my initial discussion with Paul Beljian (one of the co -authors and a nueropsyche) his feeling was that it was COMPLETELY giftedness. I am so curious .... are there are some nuances that can differentialte between a gifted child and one who has ADHD that I am just not aware of? When we have our initial evaluation on Sept 1 that is absolutely one of the first questions that I am going to ask.
I'll keep you all posted.
Suzi
O.K., too add on. This is all so difficult, maybe I am just grasping at straws and hoping that she is highly gifted vs. ADHD. It is just so coincidental, that everything that I read in their book is %100 my dd.
Anyways, not that being gifted is the end-all-be-all (as many other posters have said), but for some reason this sits a bit better with me.
Suzi
Suzi,
You can see how difficult it is to figure out based on this list from an article by Webb on Kids Source Online:
How Can Parents or Teachers Distinguish Between ADHD and Giftedness?
Seeing the difference between behaviors that are sometimes associated with giftedness but also characteristic of ADHD is not easy, as the following parallel lists show.
BEHAVIORS ASSOCIATED WITH ADHD (BARKLEY, 1990)
Poorly sustained attention in almost all situations Diminished persistence on tasks not having immediate consequences Impulsivity, poor delay of gratification Impaired adherence to commands to regulate or inhibit behavior in social contexts More active, restless than normal children Difficulty adhering to rules and regulationsBEHAVIORS ASSOCIATED WITH GIFTEDNESS (WEBB, 1993)
Poor attention, boredom, daydreaming in specific situations Low tolerance for persistence on tasks that seem irrelevant Judgment lags behind development of intellect Intensity may lead to power struggles with authorities High activity level; may need less sleep Questions rules, customs and traditionssmallmom-
I completely am with you....that is why I am both excited and perplexed. The two sound so similar. I am sure that we will be seeing someone whose perspective tends towards thinking that a child is gifted versus ADHD.
However, there will be some non-subjective testing that may make things clearer. He will be administering the Stanford-Binet ( has a higher ceiling than the WICS) as well as some cognitive tests. Hopefully, we will get some answers.
Throughout this whole process, I have been constantly looking for "other" answers. Its not that I doubt DD has ADHD, but I have always felt that there is SOMETHING MORE to it. I hope that this is it.
Thanks for your very knowledgeable input.
Suzi
Wow! I never thought posting one little article would generate so much discussion. Thanks for sharing your experiences.
Shue:
I agree with other posters -- I never thought your tone was superior, and I hope my response didn't give you the impression that I thought so. I 100% agree with you. It's frankly why we've simply let my 12-year-old son be the kid he is this summer -- enjoying camp with his friends and downtime with his family. I guess I was just lamenting in my inarticulate way that when giftedness and disorders (in my son's case ADHD and anxiety) intersect, it can make it very challenging to find an appropriate educational environment. My son, now in his 3rd school, has NEVER been happy with the academic side of school (he's fine socially). Because of his cognitive gifts, we (DH and I) only want him to enjoy learning in a structured environment, not fighting it every step of the way. We are going to look very hard this fall to see if we can find a better situation for him for next fall. BTW, if you look at the characteristics of GT/LD kids in the link I listed above, my son has nearly every one.
Susanmarcil:
I was interested in your comment, "I know that you can be gifted and have ADHD, but the likelihood is very small." Just curious -- is this sentiment from the book by Webb et al? Do the authors cite a statistic about the percentage of kids who are gifted and have ADHD? Just wondering because my son has been dx highly gifted and ADHD (plus anxiety).
Brookelea:
Since no one answered your questions, I'll take a stab. Webb, the author quoted in the NY Times article that started this thread, says an IQ of 130 is the benchmark for "giftedness" and IQs of 130 and above represeant 3 percent of the population. My understanding is that IQs over 160 are possible but very rare. Most neuropsychologists today are using the WISC-IV (for children 6 and up). A full evaluation by a neuropsychologist (at least here in the US) to determine ADHD and other disorders invariably includes a Wechsler IQ test and an achievement test like the WIAT or the Woodcock-Johnson. Both my son and daughter have undergone neuropsych testing, and both had Wechsler IQ tests and the Woodcock-Johnson achievement tests.
Keelime:
I think PSM is right -- if school is a nightmare, you need to figure out why. It may be boredom combined with ADHD and/or something else. Doesn't make for a very happy kid, as my DH and I know only too well. That is precisely why we originally sought evaluation for our son in 3rd grade. We thought he was bright and we couldn't understand why he hated school and why he struggled so much to do what we considered simple tasks. Now we know -- he is bright AND he struggles to learn because of ADHD and anxiety. BTW, I'm dreading the start of school (for us August 29) I think as much as you must be.
SmallMom38571.7778703704
My son has adhd and he is 8 years old, he too is very intelligent, I don't actually know his I.Q. Since he could talk - he has always left me speechless with what knowledge he knew, when I have spoke to the teacher she said he excells in every thing he does mentally, and they associate Attention Deficit with Learning difficulties? Yes I do know they are other problems that are associated with it - the problem my son has is he finds it really difficult to comply with orders, defiant, he does not understand the meaning of WAIT!
What used to really freak me out - when he was 2/3 he used to look at the flower poppies and say they are for my friends who died in the war, so I asked who told him that, and he would look blank at me and say nobody? If I took him on a bus somewhere we did not normally go, he would say mam I have been here before, and we have never took him there in his life, he used to baby talk and get in to fits of laughter at a bare wall and this was from a toddler - As he is getting older it isn't as much now, but he used to really get the hair on the back of my neck stand up many a time. Weird but wonderful!