Really into this dopamine theory | ADHD Information
I've ran accoss this board months ago when I first started going to the doctor regarding adult ADD. I've been reading posts here, as well as writing all over the web about ADD. I ran accross some articles on low dopamine levels and it's effects on people and since then I've been reading into it more and more. The more I read into it the more symptoms I find I match up with.
If you havent read much into the effects of having low dopamine levels in the body do some google'ing becuase there doesn't seem to be one page the gives all the effects. Here is a page that gives some brief input but wont bore you too much. www.anxiety-and-depression-solutions.com/articles/dopamine.h tm
Some of the effects of low dopamine I've read about
ADD/Concentration symptoms - it has been proven that low dopamine levels will effect concentration ability making it hard to stay on task or do tasks you don't enjoy.
Foggy Thinking - I guess this refers to times where you almost feel in a dream like state rather than grounded to whats going on or what task you are supposed to be on.
Depression/Anxiety - In addition to ADD symptoms people with low dopamine are also easily miss diagnosed with Depression/Anxiety. Especially in regard to social behaviour.
Restless Leg Syndrom - In tests done on patients suffering from RLS most showed low levels of Dopamine.
Lowered Sex Drive - Some sites I read also mentioned that it can lower you desire for intemacy with a partner. (I think this was more in males. Could be wrong though)
Cold Hands/Feet - Came accross these symptoms also from low dopamine levels. Your hands and/or feet are more cold sensitive and will generally be cold to the touch
There are alot more things it is linked to like serious diseases such as Parkinsons, schizophrenia, and others.
I find it extreamly enlightening on how many of the things I listed in Bold that I think I suffer from. Also looking through the pages of posts here I know alot of other people have spoke about some of these also. It amazes me how much of us talk about doctors having us on ADD meds along with depression/anxiety meds, or doctors labeling us as one or the other! I don't know if Restless Leg Syndrom has levels of severity but I think I do suffer from that midly too. I find my leg is always bouncing (heck, come to think of it, my leg is doing it right now as I'm typing this) and people sitting on the same bench as me always get annoyed.
I've probably made this post too long for anyone with ADD to read so I appologize from the bottom of my heart. But if you made it this far!
Please Please Please let me know if any of you all think this relates to you and or any input you have in this. Thanks guys!
I have all of the above symptoms. hehe
That is exactly why amphetamines work on so many ADHD'ers. It releases stores of norepinephrine from nerve endings, which promotes nerve impulse transmissions. The behavioral effects of amphetamine itself comes from its action on dopamine transporters which leads to increases in the amount of dopamine in the synaptic cleft.
It is also why Wellbutrin is beings used (offlabel) a lot because it works directly with norepinephrine and dopamine levels.
Just thought you might want to know.
I have all of these symptoms too. The cold hands/feet prompted me to get my thyroid checked over a year ago, long before I knew about the ADD. My boyfriend accuses me of sticking my feet in the freezer before coming to bed. LOL.Reizende and BCgirl, you both say that you suffer from alot of these symptoms too. Whats meds are you taking and how are they working for you? Also what meds have you been on in the past and what was the result for those?
dvirgo, you mentioned Wellbutrin being used because of how it works directly with norepinephrine and dopamine. Has that been a success for alot of people who have tried it?
I'm currently on Adderall and thought it was the answer after day one of taking it becuase it really made me feel like a whole new person. For some reason I never got that same feeling the following days of taking it and that is what really prompted me to research more. I know Adderall works as a stimulant but I can't figure out why after one day my body wont respond to it the same way anymore. Currently on 20mg XR but interested in hearing what working with others sharing my symptoms and believe the root is low dopamine.
I was taking non prescription Clarocet AE which worked about a month and then I got used to it. I tried skipping 3 days & taking it again. No effect.
yeah I've never really had luck going natural route but I have never tried anything specific to what I think the root of my problem is.
After reading alot online about what the body uses to produce Dopamine I ran accross Tyrosine. Its a natural amino acid that is the main building block for producing Dopamine. I bought some at a local natural health store over the weekend. It contains the following
500mg L-Tyrosine
10mg B-6
100mg Calcium
Tyrosine has to absorbed into the body then converted to Dopamine using some other things like Iron. So it's not always as simple as taking it then having more dopamine. I havent started taking an Iron supplement becuase I eat alot of red meat and I've heard negatives from TOO much iron. I also read online that Tyrosine is ok to take with Adderall and might even improve it's performance. I don't want to start saying that it's made a big differance because it is still early in taking it as a supplement.
The bottle says to take 1-3 daily so I just decided to meet them in the middle and do 2. I take one in the morning and one at night. I'm gonna give it a month or so and see if I think it makes a possitive difference.
Oh, bizarre. I've always had frozen hands and feet. I never realized that it was related to adhd.[QUOTE=chocoholic]Oh, bizarre. I've always had frozen hands and feet. I never realized that it was related to adhd.[/QUOTE]
Well I don't know if it's related to ADD for sure. I've read it's connected to low dopamine and many people with low dopamine are diagnosed with ADD. I'm not exactly sure is having low dopamine levels means you have ADD or not. I am sure that the symptoms are extreamly similar.
For example I don't know if you have ADD in turn you have low dopamine levels or if you have low dopamine you suffer from just ADD.
I'm still thinking of this as one those SAT questions that go, "If all widgets are whosets, and all whosets are whatsets, how many whatsets are thingamabobs"
I do find it interesting though regarding the multitude of symptoms covered in low dopamine cases in comparison to symptoms of typical ADD sufferers.
That post was very helpful! I just read up about dopamine transporters and now I see what you mean about them playing as important of a role of dopamine itself.
Having overly active Dopamine Transporters will prevent dopamine from staying in the system to stimulate the nuerons which in turn make you feel pleasure. So stopping these transporters or limiting them leaves the dopamine there longer to stimulate.
I was only thinking of increasing dopamine that is produced not fully understanding that having, and releasing it isn't everything
It's interesting that amphetamine and cocaine affect behavior and heart function in similar ways. Both drugs increase the amount of dopamine in the synapse. However, cocaine achieves this action by preventing dopamine reuptake, while amphetamine helps to release more dopamine. So, these drugs with similar effects produce their actions through entirely different processes.
So when reading about Low Dopamine it's really refering to Dopamine in the synapse not in the whole body in general. So what are telling signs of if it's the Dopamine transporters or lack of ability to produce/release dopamine?
[QUOTE=MCD270]Reizende and BCgirl, you both say that you suffer from alot of these symptoms too. Whats meds are you taking and how are they working for you? Also what meds have you been on in the past and what was the result for those?dvirgo, you mentioned Wellbutrin being used because of how it works
directly with norepinephrine and dopamine. Has that been a success for
alot of people who have tried it?[/QUOTE]
The meds so
far haven't helped the cold hands/feet thing. I'm usually only affected
in the winter - it's weird, my hands and feet will reflect the outside
temperature, even if I am warm and cosy indoors. The only thing that
seems to help is body heat (my feet will warm up after I've been in bed
with my boyfriend for about 20 minutes or so). Extra clothing - socks,
mittens, etc, does nothing.
A couple of
weeks ago, the temperature dropped considerably, after we'd been having
some really warm days, and my hands got cold and numb all over again,
even though I was indoors. I said to my co-worker, "the temperature
outside must be dropping". He asked how I knew and I said "because my
hands are cold".
There is a
name for this - it's called Raynaud's Syndrome. Blood vessels in the
hands and feet constrict and reduce circulation in response to cold
temperatures. In severe cases, people experience colour change in the
skin - white to blue to red - as the attack progresses/subsides.
Attacks can last anywhere from a few minutes to a few hours. In severely extreme cases, the need for amputation can result. But that's very rare.
With regards
to Wellbutrin - it doesn't have the best track record with ADD. My
doctor tried me on it for 3 weeks and I felt diddly squat.
trained person in this field)... And i hope i get the translations right (sorry
-- de -> en)...
1. Low dopamine in the synacptic cleft (gap?)
Scientist currently seem to believe that the low level of dopamine is
caused by a very high level / efficiency of DAT (dopamine transporters).
That means that trying to raise the production of dopamine is not the
main problem. You have to reduce the number of DAT or their efficiency.
Stumulants like methylphenidat (Ritalin -- which seems to be a derivative
of amphetamine) do exactly that. They reduce the number of DAT
available. In addition to that, it might help to raise the level of dopamine
available.
This effect has been visualised/checked with the help of SPECT scans.
That method has been used to check DAT levels of normal people and
adhd people. Seems to be the case that adhd people have way more DAT
than normal people and that the smoking part of the adhd lot regulates
it's level of DAT to the level of normal people (with the help of nicotaine).
2. Norepinephrine
If i'm right, adderall is a plain amphetamine and works on
norepinephrine. AFAIK, it is believed that this has a side effect on
dopamine transportation. This is a bit compilcated to explain because
there are hitchhiking effects among dopamin, norepinephrine and the
corresponding transporters -- and i'm not sure if i got it right, yet.
3. Serotonin
Also seems to play a role in this game. It is not a primary target, though.
Drugs that work on both norepinephrine and serotonin (SNRI) seem
promising especially for the ones with anxity problems but there is little
research on that topic yet. Drugs that only work on serotonin do not
seem to work well (these are common for anxity disorders, i think).
Btw. the condition as a whole seems to be genetic and dependent on a lot
of differen genes.
Just my two cent and my understanding for now. I'm just starting to
learn... Maybe that helps, maybe the post is too long
...oh, and btw. the blood flow of adhd people is different and seems to
change under medication too...
... and a second oh... btw. there seem to be people that do not react on
ritalin but that show good effects on adderall and the other way round...ADHiDsBest38496.5237731481Just wanted to thank you for a very interesting post. I
have been diagnosed with adhd, chronic
depression, generalized anxiety and restless leg
syndrome! And I know that I have a low sex drive,
foggy thinking and cold hands and feet. AND I have
struggled with addiction, substance abuse and
eating disorders – all of which have been linked to
low dopamine levels!
Geez, can’t they just make a dopamine gatorade or
something?!?
[QUOTE=MCD270]So when reading about Low Dopamine it's really
refering to Dopamine in the synapse not in the whole body in general. So
what are telling signs of if it's the Dopamine transporters or lack of ability
to produce/release dopamine?
Actually, it is even more about domaine in certain regions of the brain
and it's location in the neuron (depending on the state). There is a nice
article (in german) that might be interresting to you at http://
www.hyperaktiv.de/forschung/therapie.pdf . Maybe a google search for
"striatum dopamine synaptic adhd" might give you some good material in
english.
Since you all are talking about cold hands and feet you may want to look under the post of ADHD & Fibromyalgia.
As for Wellbutrin working on ADHD'ers I've heard a lot of good things (and some bad). It's good for those who don't react well to amphetamine based meds. It is also used for Bi-polar disorder.
My fiance takes it because in all his years of trying to self-medicate he discovered that he didn't like uppers--of any kind--so his doctor knew that puting him on Retalin or Adderall wouldn't be good; Wellbutrin was a good alternative. He's doing great. Me personally, I used to take Adderall XR 20mg in morning & 10mg of regular in the afternoons and Lexapro (antidepressant). Found out the Lexapro wasn't working, Zoloft causes migrains, and I've tried others that were no good. So to make a long story short I now take Adderall XR 20mg and 200mg of Wellbutrin and will go up to 300mg after a week. So far, in less than a week I notice a great difference. I personally have chosen to not take the afternoon dose of Adderall (it was optional-as needed) since the Wellbutrin balances me out in the afternoons.
I just finished reading a book by a science writer (not a scientist, so much more accessible, but has lousy references, to my taste). But he does seem to know his stuff pretty well. The book is "Mind Wide Open" by Steven Johnson and its quite fascinating. (I wrote a review of the paperback edition at Amazon if anyone's actually interested.)
Anyway, unlike a lot of people who equate dopamine with pleasure, he says it's funtion is more of a sentry for novel experience--alerting the rest of the brain (and the body) that there's some incoming stimulai that no schema have been already developed to handle (think "subrountine" in programming). That make a lot of sense when you think that the brain's operational motivation is to protect the survival of the individual and the species.
In terms of an AD(H)Der, we don't seem to do a very good job of filtering out stimulai or perhaps matching them up with existing schema (an "executive" function?). This would make sense in terms of inefficient dopamine transport. I haven't learned enough yet to understand where the decision-making regarding the schema matching comes in in the stimuli filtering process. Some scientists theorize that stimulai are filtered out fairly early on but I'm not so sure it's not more of a routing process rather than an elimination one since we all have experiences whereby we "remember" things we have no recollection os ever having known or perceived. Maybe, a lack of dopamine routing creates the experience of more novelty than folks w/ more of the transporters or something.
Do I have such curiosity because I'm ADD or am I ADD because I have such curiosity? 
sorry, if this is somewhat off topic, but i only managed to skim through the first page of responses....cant focus.
anway, someone mentioned that adderall worked for 1 day for them and then stopped. i am having that same reaction. i had no reaction at all until i took 20mg reg. adderral. then it stopped working. I am currently taking 30mg XR + 10mg reg. (up to 2x a day) and it ISNT WORKING.
i am about to fail out of college and no one at my school seems to be able to help...its just too big a school for any real individual attention.
i wasn't diagnosed until i turned 22 in april. i feel lost and drowning....
anway, i just wanted to share my drug failure experience.
Steveo...tell me something...since you've moved to Albuquerque, isn't there a way you can have your doctor in Denver send your records to your current doctor? I would imagine that would make things easier for your current doctor and better for you, since you obviously already found meds that works for you.
Cold feet and hands? Not me! I've always had hot hands and feet. But that could have something to do with my normal body temperature being 97.7...but I really don't know why. I wear open sandles w/o socks even in the winter. And when I used to cross-country ski, I could never wear gloves or mitts. Actually my body has always been like a 'potbelly stove,' as my mother used call me.
[QUOTE=GypsyWomyn]Steveo...tell me something...since you've moved to Albuquerque, isn't there a way you can have your doctor in Denver send your records to your current doctor? I would imagine that would make things easier for your current doctor and better for you, since you obviously already found meds that works for you.
Cold feet and hands? Not me! I've always had hot hands and feet. But that could have something to do with my normal body temperature being 97.7...but I really don't know why. I wear open sandles w/o socks even in the winter. And when I used to cross-country ski, I could never wear gloves or mitts. Actually my body has always been like a 'potbelly stove,' as my mother used call me. [/QUOTE]
One word, menopause! Before it, I got cold easily, especially hands and feet. But now, I can stay outside up to 10 minutes or so with no coat as long as it's above freezing (never, before) and have become a human hand warmer! My doctor has some condition that gives her icy hands and I always warm them up in mine before she has to examine me. Nicer for both of us!
Everything is me except for the cold hands/feet thingy. ZORG38519.9887384259 I have most of the noted symptoms, only one missing is the lower sex drive (which is as high well in my 30's as it was when i was 16).I must say that the Adderall XR i take is working miracles for my concentration/focus, MUCH better than Ritalin ever did.
Anxiety levels are still fairly high but my psych doesn't want to do anything with that till we find the 'sweet spot' for the Adderall XR dosage.
I wasn't diagnosed with actual ADHD till my 28th, before that i was considered 'hyperactive' basically.. it went as far as cutting out sugar completely in my teens and even 'classes' at a local asylum (neither of which helped).
When i got diagnosed with ADHD, i read a LOT of books, documents, etc to understand the full extend of the disorder.. over the years i paid REAL close attention to my own behavior, weaknesses and strengths.. in the end, i managed to turn around the bad outlook of the disorder and apply the strengths that it gives me in my job. I have been VERY succesful in my work and i account that mainly to my own learning of my strengths and weaknesses and being able to turn things around and work positively with the ADHD.
In the end, there is noone in the 100,000+ employee company who can work as efficiently with a project and get things done good, on time (often well ahead of schedule) and within budget (often well below the budget).
ADD/ADHD isn't a disorder in my view, it's a gift.. but it is one that takes a LOT of self-study, learning, changing and effort to be able to use it for one's own good.
I am convinced that within 25 years, ADD/ADHD will be seen as a gift, not a disorder.. being 'different' isn't a bad thing, it means that we have a different perspective of things than the 'normal' people and as thus can come up with VERY innovative solutions to problems.
When we design a new aircraft, it's usually the few ADD/ADHD engineers who come up with extremely innovative ideas to make the aircraft do what the customer wants it to do, whereas the 'normal' engineers tend to be stuck with the old and tried technique's and technologies.. We ADD engineers, we design the NEW stuff, the things that have never been done before.. the things that make stealth planes tick, the things that make a 1950's spy plane be state-of-the-art in 2005 (and one of the few aircraft not based on 1930's/1940's nazi designs, and yes, that even includes the B-2 Stealth Bomber.. the nazi's had a similar aircraft flying in 1944).
Ask yourself, would Einstein be what he is to us now had he not had ADD? Probably not! As sachetm said above, you have to be assertive, it's rare for anything to be thrown in your lap, you gotta work to get things done.
Hemmie38520.8644907407[QUOTE=fallingapart]
sorry, if this is somewhat off topic, but i only managed to skim through the first page of responses....cant focus.
anway, someone mentioned that adderall worked for 1 day for them and then stopped. i am having that same reaction. i had no reaction at all until i took 20mg reg. adderral. then it stopped working. I am currently taking 30mg XR + 10mg reg. (up to 2x a day) and it ISNT WORKING.
i am about to fail out of college and no one at my school seems to be able to help...its just too big a school for any real individual attention.
i wasn't diagnosed until i turned 22 in april. i feel lost and drowning....
anway, i just wanted to share my drug failure experience.
[/QUOTE]
I went to the U of MD which is a huge school and managed to graduate. I found a trick. I made appointments with my instructors to discuss stuff I wasn't clear about or was but wanted to get deeper into. So few students actually bothered to come talk to them that even in huge lecture classes, I stood out and ALWAYS got the benefit of any doubt.
I just talked to my neighbor tonight (I live in an RV part so neighbors come and go almost daily) who's a professor at the U of GA or someplace like that in management. Funny digression--I took him some info on ADD because he thinks both he and his wife have it even though he's not been diagnosed! So, we're talking about teaching and he said that if there was just one thing he could develop in his students it was CURIOSITY! I know I'm doing so well (4.0) in my doctoral program because I'm genuinely curious about the content and engage my instructors (having learned that trick well as an undergraduate).
Don't wait for them to come to you, you go to them. It can make all the difference in the world, not only in your grades but your enjoyment of school!
Good for you, Hemmie! It already is a gift. It's called "creativity." "Normal" people pay big bucks to try and develop what we possess naturally!
You really hit on the crux of the issue. Like everything in life (yin/yang), there is a down side to it. It's understanding the pluses and minuses and then learning--often with the help of drugs (but they just jump start the reaction--it's all doable without them but it does take time and effort) to learn how to manage and compensate for the negative aspects.
The first step, obviously, is recognizing that one has this kind of brain configuration and then developing a regimen to capitalize on the plueses while minimizing the minuses. I guess it depends on how many demons one has to rein in. If those who raised us beraged us with criticism about the minuses, it's harder and takes longer than for those of us whose families focused on the positive. But at least now we know that that was their ignorance, not ours.
The world would be so much easier to deal with if the people in it just learned to honor and capitalize on differences rather than to use them as sledge hammers, wouldn't it? Dream on!
Having just gotten my diagnosis (mostly on my own w/ the help of a very good therapist), I feel unburdened. I finally know what's been going on all these years and that it's not simply a deficiency in character. There's a physiological basis for it. What a relief. Now I may stand a chance of reaching more of the potential I've always been told and intrinsically knew that I had!
sachetm38521.2194560185ok..lets see...
restless legg.....yes, foggy not grounded....yes, no concentration ...yes,......bla bla bla.yes................................all that you noted ican relate , but ironically several of those merntioned i had'nt ( until now ) related to my lifelong diagnosis of ...adhd. so ....thanks.
currently on week #3 of strattera hate it..
...not only cause it does absolutly nothing but make me irratable.....but i have taken 15mg ..am ..and 10mg pm ..adderall for years and have done GREAT...after a lot of years on rittalin as a kid. but i just moved here (albuquerque , nm) from denver,co 6 weeks ago..and here we go again w/ a new doctor who wants to "play it safe " and try nopn-stimulant drugs,.....shoot i wish it would work...adderall is such a TABOO typwe med....they all think we are fends (long E)...not our fault thats what works. ok...done venting....arggggh
take care ...steveo
ADHiDsBest, I did not find your post too long, until maybe you started talking about whether it was too long or not!
Like you, I want to understand the mechanisms involved. I came across some fascinating information that discussed the role of dopamine.
"Dopamine, [on the other hand], is not so much a pleasure drug as a kind of pleasure accountant. It anticipates rewards that it expects the brain to receive, and sends off an alarm if the reward exceeds or falls below the anticipated level." (Mind Wide Open: The Neuroscience of Everyday Life. Johnson, S. (2004). NY: Scribner, p. 152) This is an excellent book for laypeople that I reviewed [paperback edition] at Amazon. This role of Dopamine as more of a sentry could explain why an increase in Dopamine only worked for one day. Dopamine alerts the brain to novelty and once an adjustment is made to account for the novelty, things return to "normal."
There is an incredible amount of science to learn about brain functioning and this in particular, but I'm finding it fascinating!
http://www.adders.org/research3.htm
Just love this forum !! You all have been my main source for information on adhd since I got my diagnosis 2 months back. Now I am in my 2nd week on Ritalin (only 2 x 10mg a day, not working at all, but it's a start!). I am so optimistic that I will find a solution for my lack of concentration, that I am going back to university this fall !!
Reading your postings on this topic, I am beginning to wonder if my poor body temperature control will get better with the right adhd-medication. It can get pretty cold here in the North Atlantic in the wintertime, but I always seem to need more layers of clothes than others.
Thank you, ADHiDs Best, for reminding me to read the german article you mentioned. I had it on my PC, but just forgot about it ...